Are northern rail allowed to do this to me? Please help

[Bletchleyite]

Why would they be successful? There's evidence to suggest that the OPs ticket is contractually valid. I wouldn't jump to conclusions yet

The updates posted on how other Northern TVMs worked this morning, unless they've rolled a patch out overnight, seem to suggest otherwise.

So I take it you've memorized the terms of conditions of everything you have bought them?

I certainly know that my Network Railcard isn't valid before 1000, with a few exceptions which I don't recall but know to look them up if the situation arises. It's a fundamental tenet of the product, not an obscure T&C about what to do if you lose it on a Wednesday in November when there's a full moon.

 

[fandroid]

So I take it you've memorized the terms of conditions of everything you have bought them?

There is a general appreciation of consumer protection law which covers most of the basic rights, and there's a trading standards department somewhere that should be able to be appealed to. And very few retailers will whack a penalty charge on you or threaten criminal court action if you underpay!!

 

[SteveM70]

So I take it you've memorized the terms of conditions of everything you have bought them?

This is the landing page of the 26-30 railcard website - https://www.railcard.co.uk/26-30/

I think its pretty clear about the £12 pre-10am limitation, and its not unreasonable to expect a buyer to have read it - its hardly buried in the small print.

 

[43066]

A quick play on a Northern TVM (at a different station) at 0600 this morning, reveals that :
The quick buy function allows you to select a Railcard, but doesn't put the discount on at all.
The journey planner function allows you to select the Railcard, but only applies the discount if you select a train after 10am.

There does not appear to be a way to buy a railcard discounted ticket for immediate travel via any machine function which would result in an invalid ticket, the only way would be if someone selected later trains and traveled earlier via the journey planner function.

As all Northern TVM have the same back end programming, this should be consistent across the estate.

We weren't there at the time, so we cannot KNOW what happened. However, based on what I see this morning, it seems that the only way to purchase, and travel, with an Railcard discounted ticket at an invalid time is to deceive the machine as to your travel plans.

So, either the OP encountered a rogue machine that worked incorrectly just for his transaction, or something else happened that isn’t being fully described…

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, either the OP encountered a rogue machine that worked incorrectly just for his transaction, or something else happened that isn’t being fully described…

The only possibility I can think of is that the TVM's clock was wrong, hence why I've asked the OP above what time is printed on the ticket that was purchased?

 

[island]

As the OP has attempted to delete all their posts I am doubtful they wish to engage further; there is already a thread about Railcard restrictions for people to post on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the OP has attempted to delete all their posts I am doubtful they wish to engage further; there is already a thread about Railcard restrictions for people to post on.

The OP hasn't deleted any posts, they haven't blocked you have they?

 

[island]

The OP hasn't deleted any posts, they haven't blocked you have they?

I said "attempted"; they edited all their posts last night to remove all the text, but the moderators have restored it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I said "attempted"; they edited all their posts last night to remove all the text, but the moderators have restored it.

Ah, fair enough.

 

[SeanG]

Perhaps the OP realised that this forum is public and they don't want details of their case to be in the public domain if they take this further?
However, obviously we cannot help in such a case

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As the OP has attempted to delete all their posts I am doubtful they wish to engage further;

Perhaps the OP realised that this forum is public and they don't want details of their case to be in the public domain if they take this further?

More probable that they didn't like being told what the likely explanation was, and that the incident was very possibly entirely of their own making.

 

[43066]

I said "attempted"; they edited all their posts last night to remove all the text, but the moderators have restored it.

I did report the thread last night as I suspected it may not be genuine.

 

[AdamWW]

This is the landing page of the 26-30 railcard website - https://www.railcard.co.uk/26-30/

I think its pretty clear about the £12 pre-10am limitation, and its not unreasonable to expect a buyer to have read it - its hardly buried in the small print.

On the other hand searching for the 26-30 railcard took me to https://www.26-30railcard.co.uk/ where the information is at the bottom of the page.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we'll leave this here. We're getting quite speculative and off the subject. As a reminder to all who read and contribute to these threads we do have guidance for you to follow:

Guidance for those responding to any thread in this section:

The purpose of the Disputes and Prosecutions forum is to provide advice for anyone who has encountered difficulties during or after their rail journey; any replies to any thread in this section should be constructive in nature.

Regardless of whether the person in question admits their guilt, or believes that they are completely innocent, everyone who seeks help is entitled to receive advice. We would usually expect these 4 aims to be addressed in a disputes thread:

1. Establish the facts of the case
2. Ensure the correct process was followed by the rail official dealing with the issue
3. Check the Original Poster (OP) understands what has happened
4. Explain the options available to resolve the matter to the OP

For the benefit of the OP we will not permit off topic discussion, any such posts are likely to be deleted. For instance a debate about whether current rail industry practice could be improved, or about the complex nature of the railway ticketing system is not helpful to the OP. The Disputes section of the RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide covers current practice; should you wish to discuss such practices or your ideas for changes to them, you must post this in a separate thread in the appropriate forum.

If you spot any problem in a particular thread, please report relevant post(s) to us using the report button, rather than calling for moderator action in public. Due to the sheer number of posts on this forum, we are unable to review every single thread therefore unless reported to us, we may not notice every request made in this manner.

It's very important that people stick to this as it's very difficult for the OP and people who are trying to help them to follow a conversation when it starts going off-topic or starts discussing separate topics or the minutia of a rule when that isn't directly relevant.

People are of course welcome to start new threads with either a link or even directly quoting the post that you wish to respond to (press +Quote on the post you wish to quote, go to the relevant Forum, start a new thread and the click "Insert Quotes" which will appear at the bottom of the text editor box) in a way which isn't in line with the above guidance.

To OP if you do wish to gain more advice please feel free to report this post using the report button (bottom left) and we can re-open it for you.

 

[PDF-Mal13]

I just wanted to thank everyone here. Two weeks ago I made a post talking about how the ticket machine at heald green applied my railcard to an anytime day return WITHOUT warning. This was in the morning.

I was stopped and given a receipt which threatened prosecution.

I deleted my posts just in case I was prosecuted and my details could be found here.

Today they sent a letter asking me to either send them the ticket I bought or pay them £5.20. No prosecution !!!

Today I am one of the happiest people alive because MY CAREER IN FINANCE IS ALIVE AND NOT OVER !!!

Thank you all

 

[Class800]

I just wanted to thank everyone here. Two weeks ago I made a post talking about how the ticket machine at heald green applied my railcard to an anytime day return WITHOUT warning. This was in the morning.

I was stopped and given a receipt which threatened prosecution.

I deleted my posts just in case I was prosecuted and my details could be found here.

Today they sent a letter asking me to either send them the ticket I bought or pay them £5.20. No prosecution !!!

Today I am one of the happiest people alive because MY CAREER IN FINANCE IS ALIVE AND NOT OVER !!!

Thank you all

Good news. There's too many cases of people being punished when they didn't knowingly do anything wrong and it's not fair, although technically permitted. It's great to get good news stories here from time to time

 

[PDF-Mal13]

Indeed it is good news. These were the two worst weeks of my life.. constantly waking up in the middle of nights with panic attacks thinking my career was over and I would be unemployed and without somewhere to live.

Now I have been given a second chance I will be extra careful with everything from now on! No more mistakes and clumsiness

If anyone is going through the same situation.. just believe in yourself! There will be light in the end of the tunnel, just follow the process even if you think it wasn’t your fault!!

I will send a letter now thanking northern rail and apologising for the time I have taken from them.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for letting us know, that's a good outcome.

 

[skyhigh]

There's too many cases of people being punished when they didn't knowingly do anything wrong and it's not fair, although technically permitted.

Before blaming the TOC, you might like to read the original thread where other posters tried the same machine and did get warned about the fact the ticket wasn't valid at that time...

Are northern rail allowed to do this to me? Please help

I bought a physical ticket from my local station this morning from the ticket machine. I selected "anytime day return" and applied my VALID 26-30 railcard. The machine offered me a discounted price in accordance to the railcard and I bought / printed the tickets. I arrive at Deansgate...

www.railforums.co.uk

Regardless, it is good to hear the OP got a positive outcome.

 

[Haywain]

There's too many cases of people being punished when they didn't knowingly do anything wrong and it's not fair, although technically permitted.

Doing something wrong is, of course, debatable but I'm not sure why you'd expect to find much else on a 'Disputes and Prosecutions' forum.

 

[duncanp]

Before blaming the TOC, you might like to read the original thread where other posters tried the same machine and did get warned about the fact the ticket wasn't valid at that time...

Are northern rail allowed to do this to me? Please help

I bought a physical ticket from my local station this morning from the ticket machine. I selected "anytime day return" and applied my VALID 26-30 railcard. The machine offered me a discounted price in accordance to the railcard and I bought / printed the tickets. I arrive at Deansgate...

www.railforums.co.uk

Regardless, it is good to hear the OP got a positive outcome.

I can't help thinking that the ticket machine should be programmed not to issue an invalid ticket, not simply warn the customer about the ticket being invalid.

If you attempted to purchase such a ticket from a ticket office, presumably the staff member would ask the customer when they intended to travel, and issue the correctly priced ticket depending on the customer's response.

With the impending closure of most ticket offices, this issue is going to become more and more important, and more incidents like this one will occur.

 

[Parham Wood]

Good news. The warning about an invalid ticket should be very visible on the screen and before the transaction can be finished the customer should be required to press an acknowledgement button.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Good news. The warning about an invalid ticket should be very visible on the screen and before the transaction can be finished the customer should be required to press an acknowledgement button.

Not only is there no warning there isn’t even a discount unless you select a later train for which the restriction doesn’t apply. Beware of taking everything at face value

 

[PDF-Mal13]

Not only is there no warning there isn’t even a discount unless you select a later train for which the restriction doesn’t apply. Beware of taking everything at face value

With all due respect another poster proved that tickets from / to Heald Green have the discount applied in the mornings. Northern rail also seemed to agree with me which is why they’re settling the matter with just me sending them the ticket I bought!!

You don’t know what happened and what I’ve gone through these two weeks and all the panic attacks I had. I am not lying. This happened and it’s been proven.

Good news. The warning about an invalid ticket should be very visible on the screen and before the transaction can be finished the customer should be required to press an acknowledgement button.

Thank you. I think northern rail have noted this issue with a few of the machines which is why they are happy to settle with me if I just show them the ticket.

I’m sure northern rail will re-program the machine so there is a warning or the discount is not allowed to be applied in the morning peak times.