Often, signs informing of a speed limit change are obscured by hedgerow growth, dirt or even other signs. Now that is unacceptable, it should be raised as mitigating circumstances with a resulting obligation on the road/local authority to rectify the situation. As far a signs that meet the requirements of the law, arguing that (in some person's lay opinion) they are wrong or somehow 'caused' the speeding offence, is neither relevant to the offence nor it's prosecution.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Are speed cameras too conspicuous?
- Thread starter py_megapixel
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
bramling
Veteran Member
How would it work in the motorway scenario where one can leave a nice gap and then some fool in a lane to the left suddenly decides to make a badly judged move rightwards, and fills it?
I’m absolutely up for cracking down on tailgating, however I just can’t see how an automated device could police it on a multi-lane road. It’s already a driving test fail to have to force another motorist to slow down.
The original offence may be difficult to detect but the increasing prevalence of not only fixed cameras, but also dashboard devices would support a campaign to deal with the worst offenders. The problem is that those who have been 'offended' by invasion of their road space frequently take retaliatory action either by forcing their way in front of the original offender, or by speeding past the as a demonstration of 'their' primacy. That then becomes a much more dangerous situation.
Pretty sure it’s done with multiple cameras over a longer stretch of motorway
Reminds me of when I was driving on a road that I knew very well but hadn't used for about three years and was being carefuly not to exceed the 40 limit that I remembered. I was just thinking that the hedge was so overgrown that I hadn't seen the 40 sign when there was a flash. It was only when checking on the return journey that I realised that the 40 signs had been taken away and that the flash was for me and not the car passing in the opposite direction.
Yes. Speed limit signs are there to be obeyed. If a driver decides to 'speed' then whether a camera is hidden or conspicuous shouldn't matter. If they are 'caught' its a matter for the court to determine whether camera position is relevant. Having seen lives ruined by someone else's eccessively speedy driving, I'd vote to hide the cameras. Once drivers know they could be caught anywhere maybe they'd think twice about speeding?
If they were all reasonable, then sure
py_megapixel
Established Member
Why should it be your decision whether any given speed limit is reasonable or not?
Fundementally, you don't have any right to be driving at all. It's a privilege, and that privilege comes with the expectation that you will follow the rules which have been set down for the safety and convenience of everyone, on both the inside and outside of wheeled metal boxes. Whether you think that those rules are reasonable or not is irrelevant.
Master Cutler
Member
Having driven many times in Switzerland over the years, I think we should have the same speed camera and speeding policy in the UK.
I received a 16 Euro fine for exceeding the limit by 2 km per hour on the hill outside the Zurich hospital. Upon receipt of the ticket in the post I immediately paid it. Upon collecting my hire car at the start of my next visit the girl at the Europcar desk saw my previous fine and told me it was good it was paid, because if unpaid, I would not be able to hire another car in Switzerland.
Everyone closely follows the speed limits in Switzerland then clogs it up the A5 from Basel North through Germany.
There are two main types of speed cameras – the permanent ones and the mobile ones. All are difficult to spot – unlike in the UK where I come from and where they are bright yellow – and yes, people still get caught!! In Switzerland they are usually grey and placed in very unobtrusive locations for maximum impact. Sometimes they are right after a bridge on the motorway, sometimes partially hidden by trees or bushes, or located next to a junction box or a concrete building. You may also come across temporary police speed checks occasionally, where they set up in a lay-by or at the side of the road with a speed trap, and of course there are also police patrols on the motorways too.
I received a 16 Euro fine for exceeding the limit by 2 km per hour on the hill outside the Zurich hospital. Upon receipt of the ticket in the post I immediately paid it. Upon collecting my hire car at the start of my next visit the girl at the Europcar desk saw my previous fine and told me it was good it was paid, because if unpaid, I would not be able to hire another car in Switzerland.
Everyone closely follows the speed limits in Switzerland then clogs it up the A5 from Basel North through Germany.
There are two main types of speed cameras – the permanent ones and the mobile ones. All are difficult to spot – unlike in the UK where I come from and where they are bright yellow – and yes, people still get caught!! In Switzerland they are usually grey and placed in very unobtrusive locations for maximum impact. Sometimes they are right after a bridge on the motorway, sometimes partially hidden by trees or bushes, or located next to a junction box or a concrete building. You may also come across temporary police speed checks occasionally, where they set up in a lay-by or at the side of the road with a speed trap, and of course there are also police patrols on the motorways too.
Speed Limits Change Frequently
The speed cameras have a very low threshold, so to avoid racking up huge amounts in fines, it’s worth getting to know the speed limits and watching out for the frequent changes in speed limits. This latter point is very important, as even on the same road you can find the speed limits changing several times in different sections – so it is so easy to miss the fact that you are currently driving in a lower speed limit area.EssexGonzo
Member
- Joined
- 9 May 2012
- Messages
- 636
To be fair, we have as much *right* to drive as we to do walk - within the boundaries of the laws and rules. I believe a road is a type of “right of way”? Like a footpath, bridle way etc.
However, the answer to this questions comes down to whether speed cameras are designed as deterrents or revenue generators. If the former, make them visible. If the latter, hide them. In either case, no-one has any recourse if caught. I’ve been caught twice in the last few years and have paid up and attending the course without a thought. My behaviours have changed a little as a result, so there’s some positive benefits in the system.
Yes I know someone who got nabbed near Geneva airport in the tunnels. He wasn’t just over the limit either. Once you get s certain amount over, speeding fines in Switzerland are means tested. This guy Is loaded. His fine was a long way into four figures.
ABB125
Established Member
I wonder what effect means-tested fines would have in Britain...
To be fair, since the advent of speed cameras, speeding on motorways in particular has noticeably reduced.
bramling
Veteran Member
The difficulty with this is this doesn’t deal with accidents on single-carriageway roads of all classes, nor those on motorways caused by things like carelessly weaving between lanes. In general I find both of these settings more concerning than someone doing 80-90 mph on a motorway, especially at less busy times. We seem to have our priorities wrong.
ABB125
Established Member
But how much of that is due to the "brake for the camera" approach? **cough cough** my dad **cough cough**
Indeed.
I would consider middle-lane hogging another big issue, more problematic than going at 80-90mph. Especially as the hogger may decide that they don't want to be overtaken, and accelerate away as they're being overtaken, possibly not paying attention to the road ahead because they're concentrating on the idiot (in their opinion) overtaking. And then slowing down again, only for the same vehicle to overtake again.
(I definitely haven't experienced this...
)
Last edited:
py_megapixel
Established Member
I personally think that hidden cameras make better deterrents than visible ones, in the long run. If someone spots a camera they brake for it and then speed up again. If someone gets a ticket from a hidden camera they're going to be more cautious as they have no idea when they could be caught. So hiding them is a win for everyone except the motoring lobby.
The claim that highly visible speed cameras are a deterrent is a myth. If a vehicle is recorded as exceeding a clearly marked speed limit, the driver can be prosecuted, irrespective whether the recording camera was visible to the driver at the time and the driver has no recourse if caught. The revenue generators are drivers who break speed limits, - the cameras just record the event.
Indeed, if the camera's location was 'advertised' by conspicuous colour/markings, all that is likely to happen is that speeding drivers slowdown when passing it and then speed up again afterwards. Were the cameras not conspicuous, and the driver informed of the speed limit for the section of road, most of them would drive cautiously (at a legal speed) throughout the section of road. Also, there would be no point in flashing oncoming motorists that they are approaching a camera because they probably wouldn't be able to see it. The whole culture of abusing speed limits is because the politicians passing speeding laws are cowering to the motoring lobby.
That is why average speed cameras are more effective as well as the grey cameras located on the outside of some motorway's gantries. They don't have flashlights, and they don't need road markings.
I agree average speed limit cameras area good thing. I see that Waze has been recently updated to show a bar down the side of the screen for lower limits on motorways during long stretches of road works so you don't exceed the average. I make extensive use of cruise control on motorway driving these days to ensure I maintain an overall consistent and responsible speed (adjusting to specific conditions obviously)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Points effectively cause a level of means testing, as they whack your insurance up, and if you have a premium car that's higher anyway. The Swiss don't have points, so it's just considered a "going faster tax".
I have seen a ticket (from a former colleague) for 111 in a 110km/h limit, though - so they are strict! That's near unheard of in the UK, most forces apply the 10% + 2mph thing even if they don't have to. Though Northampton was at one point famous for not doing.
Average cameras are best as there's no panic braking, and if you do on occasion have to use a bit of judicious speed to safely correct an error you have made, for example a misjudged overtake, it won't get you a ticket if you slow down a bit to compensate afterwards. Always surprised me that smart motorways don't use them.
Virtually none of it. Motorways are more likely to have multiple cameras focused on the carriageways, - often average speed types which force motorists to keep their speed at or below an average that meets the limit. Of course there are those idiots that don't understand the meaning of 'average' and race between the cameras only to slam the brakes on when passing them.
This is all irrelevant. It takes two to tango, getting impatient with the other motorist creates just as many problems, and if speeds of 80-90mph are part of that impatience, staying within the law removes the whole problem.I would consider middle-lane hogging another big issue, more problematic than going at 80-90mph. Especially as the hogger may decide that they don't want to be overtaken, and accelerate away as they're being overtaken, possibly not paying attention to the road ahead because they're concentrating on the idiot (in their opinion) overtaking. And then slowing down again, only for the same vehicle to overtake again.
(I definitely haven't experienced this...
The problem with speeding in the UK is that some drivers won't accept that a speed limit means the fastest you can legally go at, - they see it as the speed that everbody must go at, especially those who might get in their way.
bramling
Veteran Member
Unfortunately these just replace panic braking with other undesirables like overtaking with minimal speed differentiation, people choosing a lane they fancy rather than one appropriate for their speed, etc. Plus some people don’t understand what average speed means, so still panic brake when they see a camera! Or ones who weave about because they think the cameras only work if you stay in the same lane.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One advantage of smart motorways is that they do seem to have reduced the prevailing motorway speed from about 85mph to 70 as intended.
bramling
Veteran Member
Just a shame you run a high chance of being flattened alive by an HGV if you should be unfortunate enough to suffer a breakdown...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Well, quite. TBH I think they should reinstate the hard shoulder but keep all the other features (as per some of the early implementations on the M25). Though hard shoulder running is probably OK at lower speeds, e.g. if you turn it on set it to 50 or even 40. After all there are plenty of shoulderless 70mph A roads, such as much of MK.
There is a crucial difference between motorways/trunk roads and other nsl dual carriageways in that many drivers set their brains to cruise and the effect of other traffic moving at similar steady speeds for long periods reduces attention to small changes such as a stationary vehicle ahead, especially if it doesn"t have hazard lights operating.
I agree that if traffic density is such that all lanes are in use, the speed limit should always be reduced. Smart motorways are supposed to be about capacity, not individual journey times.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
To be fair, I think that with the older style where the hard shoulder is marked as one but temporarily used as a running lane at busy times, if you set hard shoulder running a 60mph limit is automatically applied.
Yes, you're right about the "autopilot" issue on motorways. MK does have fast roads, and they don't meet the spec to be 60/70mph if they were built now, but the mentality is different - you're allowed to go fast, but you also expect problems, e.g. cutting-up out of junctions is the norm when things are busy (because there are no acceleration lanes) so you drive anticipating that that is going to happen, which you don't on the motorway. MK has a kind of informal alternate rule of the road, particularly at busy times, because if the standard "don't do something that causes someone else to change speed or direction" was applied strictly nobody would ever get out of a junction, the alternate rule is in practice more like "don't pull out so close in front of someone that they have to slam on".
I think that 60mph can be too fast on a trunk route, - most trucks cruise at 56 or 62 mph, and if the driver is on a long journey, attention is lost at times (how much we will probably never know) and events then unfold. The grid in MK, although comprising roads on which high speeds are allowed, has regular interruptions (roundabouts), - most of them less than 1km apart, so driver attention doesn't usually drop much between them. Even the A5, which goes just over 3km between Grafton St and Portway junctions would only take just over one minute. Compare that to the M1 between J14 & J15, it's nearly 20 km there. Are they still converting that to 'smart' status?
bramling
Veteran Member
One could just as easily make a case to say that slower speed is *more* likely to cause people to lose focus. It’s then a question of whether the potential lessening of consequences in an accident outweighs the increased risk of it happening in the first place. To be honest one probably isn’t going to come off well if you’ve broken down and are struck by something whether it’s doing 60 mph or 85 mph.
Driving at a constant speed on dual carriageways and motorways, especially when using tools like cruise, is incredibly mind-draining. It must be all the more so for those with attention span issues.
This is why I prefer using the A1 over the M1 when heading north, or the A303 over the M4/M5 when heading south-west. The flip side of the coin is something like the A1 does contain more in the way of potential hazards, like the high number of side-turnings on some stretches.
Agreed, 50mph roadwork sections with average speed cameras protecting them, or similar speeds on smart motorways, where everyone is doing the same speed and using cruise control is really monotonous. Very easy to lose focus or be more likely to distract yourself changing songs/stations etc. when driving isn’t taking as much of your attention.
Compared to “normal” motorway driving at National Speed Limit, you have more speed variation between vehicles, trucks at around 56mph, cars doing anything between that and well over the limit, and assuming you’re keeping left unless overtaking, etc. then to maintain your desired pace you’ll usually be changing lanes and moving around other traffic, much more actively driving and I find that far easier to stay alert.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In response to the question about J14-15 yes I think conversion is in progress?
The UK motorways were largely built with long sweeping curves which were intended to reduce the risk of inattention by requiring constantly changing steering input, by the way.
The UK motorways were largely built with long sweeping curves which were intended to reduce the risk of inattention by requiring constantly changing steering input, by the way.
- Status