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Are there any other routes that could potentially be operated by class 769s?

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DGH 1

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Are there any other routes that could potentially be operated by 769's? I am thinking of the likes of Leeds to Morecambe, Leeds to Sheffield via Fitzwilliam, and Chathill to Metro Centre and beyond.
And maybe the Durham and Cumbrian coast lines.
 

_toommm_

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Are there any other routes that could potentially be operated by 769's? I am thinking of the likes of Leeds to Morecambe, Leeds to Sheffield via Fitzwilliam, and Chathill to Metro Centre and beyond.

Leeds to Morecambe would be pointless, as it would only be able to use the juice from Carnforth back to Hest Bank. It would probably lose so much time during Autumn and with all the stopping it would be doing.
 

Anvil1984

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Leeds to Morecambe would be pointless, as it would only be able to use the juice from Carnforth back to Hest Bank. It would probably lose so much time during Autumn and with all the stopping it would be doing.

And Leeds to Skipton on the east, so 26 miles out of about 70 under the wires if I have my sums right
 

Anvil1984

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And maybe the Durham and Cumbrian coast lines

Curious particularly about the Cumbrian Coast line, Carlisle to Barrow is 85 miles and has wires for about 0.25 of that. Also if 769s share the class 150s bodyshell characteristics they'd be banned Carlisle to Maryport. At the minute both lines would be better served with DMUs as the Durham coast only has standard AC in the Newcastle station area and across the bridge with Metro DC wiring for about 7 miles from Pelaw to Sunderland, and again a prohibition on class 150 type bodyshells betweeen East Boldon and Sunderland

Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool could work for 769s if they don't do the right thing and wire it
 

DGH 1

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Curious particularly about the Cumbrian Coast line, Carlisle to Barrow is 85 miles and has wires for about 0.25 of that. Also if 769s share the class 150s bodyshell characteristics they'd be banned Carlisle to Maryport. At the minute both lines would be better served with DMUs as the Durham coast only has standard AC in the Newcastle station area and across the bridge with Metro DC wiring for about 7 miles from Pelaw to Sunderland, and again a prohibition on class 150 type bodyshells betweeen East Boldon and Sunderland

Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool could work for 769s if they don't do the right thing and wire it
Do you have Any idea why 150 type bodyshells are prohibited between East Boldon and Sunderland?.
 

Anvil1984

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Do you have Any idea why 150 type bodyshells are prohibited between East Boldon and Sunderland?.

Unfortunately not. It’s brother class 950 is allowed through but only at 40 mph between Monkwearmouth and East Boldon (normal linespeed is up to 70)
 

61653 HTAFC

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Do you have Any idea why 150 type bodyshells are prohibited between East Boldon and Sunderland?.
Thought it was something to do with stepping distances on curved platforms, but I don't know the route so I can't be more specific. Think it was something I read on this site several years ago. Such a reason would explain why the 950 is permitted, as obviously stepping distances don't apply to a non-passenger unit.
 

DGH 1

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Unfortunately not. It’s brother class 950 is allowed through but only at 40 mph between Monkwearmouth and East Boldon (normal linespeed is up to 70)
Thought it was something to do with stepping distances on curved platforms, but I don't know the route so I can't be more specific. Think it was something I read on this site several years ago. Such a reason would explain why the 950 is permitted, as obviously stepping distances don't apply to a non-passenger unit.
Thank you both for your replies, as you've guessed it's the network rail 950 being allowed to run that made me wonder.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Thank you both for your replies, as you've guessed it's the network rail 950 being allowed to run that made me wonder.
As I hopefully implied in my post above, I claim no authority over the information. I think we have a few members who may be able to clarify.
 

Anvil1984

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Thought it was something to do with stepping distances on curved platforms, but I don't know the route so I can't be more specific. Think it was something I read on this site several years ago. Such a reason would explain why the 950 is permitted, as obviously stepping distances don't apply to a non-passenger unit.

I think you're thinking of the often trotted out line that 150s aren't allowed up the Durham Coast because of the curved platform at Hartlepool which is a bit further south (its only Tyne and Wear Metro stations in the affected area) however class 150s are permitted through there. When I went through earlier there was only one overbridge which seemed to be a bit tight just after Stadium of Light Metro but who knows

Anyway this is going off topic a bit due to the lack of OHLE AC in the area I wouldn't see the worth in a bi-mode unit there. Best using them elsewhere where they can be more use electricity wise (or until the Metro does actually change over to 25kv AC in the future)
 

jonnyfan

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The route from Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton would be ideal, OHL up to Hazel Grove then diesel to Buxton...as long as they can handle the hills
 

ChiefPlanner

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The route from Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton would be ideal, OHL up to Hazel Grove then diesel to Buxton...as long as they can handle the hills

If 769's can handle the Valleys (all uphill from the Coast ?) , and as 319's they could manage the Wimbledon - Sutton "Wall of death" .......(in in 37 or so)
 

Bletchleyite

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The route from Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton would be ideal, OHL up to Hazel Grove then diesel to Buxton...as long as they can handle the hills

Because of the way Northern operates on the "hourly train from everywhere to everywhere" concept, a very large number of their routes are suitable for bi-mode operation, certainly anything that goes through Manchester even for a short part of the journey (as anything stopping fume-belching DMUs in cities is a good idea). It's certainly my view that ordering 195s and 331s rather than a single bi-mode fleet was a bad idea, but if they work reliably 769s do provide the option to at least partly remedy that.

Another one that would work is Ringway to Barrow/Windermere, though you'd want to tart the interior up a bit - 100mph on the WCML but on diesel for the last bit.

Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool could work for 769s if they don't do the right thing and wire it

It wouldn't really. The large number of stations on that means you need a high acceleration DMU, and 769s (and indeed 319s under the wires) are decidedly leisurely. Absent the wires, which I agree need to go up there ASAP, 195s would be a good choice, particularly on the stopping services.
 

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The route from Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton would be ideal, OHL up to Hazel Grove then diesel to Buxton...as long as they can handle the hills
Isn’t their clearance issues in Dove Holes Tunnel that restricts certain units operating to Buxton
 

Bletchleyite

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Slightly off the wall, how about Marylebone to Aylesbury, (it would need to be class 769/9s and have trainstop cocks fitted).

A bit slow off the mark perhaps? And would need fourth rail capability adding, as I don't believe the centre rail is bonded to earth on that section?
 

Greybeard33

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The route from Manchester Piccadilly to Buxton would be ideal, OHL up to Hazel Grove then diesel to Buxton...as long as they can handle the hills
Porterbrook originally used the Buxton line for its performance modelling. It claimed from this that the 769 could match 150 timings. It would be interesting to see a demonstration of real world performance on this line to validate (or not) the modelling.
Isn’t their clearance issues in Dove Holes Tunnel that restricts certain units operating to Buxton
I believe 769 vehicles have similar bodyshell dimensions to 150s, which regularly work Buxton services.

Pacers were banned from the line due to tunnel clearance issues.
 

Bletchleyite

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I believe 769 vehicles have similar bodyshell dimensions to 150s, which regularly work Buxton services.

Pacers were banned from the line due to tunnel clearance issues.

Though would the pantograph get knocked off?

I do agree, though, that this route is the sort of route that is basically the whole point of bi-modes - a busy city commuter service that extends on to become a rural local stopper, and where sticking buffer stops in the middle of the platform Ormskirk-style would cause issues due to most journeys being through to Manchester (which isn't true of Preston-Ormskirk; if you're wanting to do Preston-Liverpool there is a direct train the other way).

It might have already been mentioned, but the S&C is another possibility (due to the section from Leeds that runs under the wires), though while I'm not one for door position prejudice, doors at thirds could be a bit chilly in winter. You could have some dedicated units, though, which would be good, including things like extra cycle spaces for all the mountain bikers (a 185 style "ballroom" could be put in at one cab end), and lay the seats out so they were mostly in bays aligned with the massive windows, possibly even provide some decent 2+1 First Class using the spare seats from some 319/4s going for scrap.
 

Greybeard33

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Though would the pantograph get knocked off?
I believe the issue with the Pacers was the square-ish body cross section - the upper corners would have been too close to the curved tunnel roof. I doubt if the folded pantograph sticks out far enough to be a problem, especially since the outer ends curve downwards.

Edit: for the avoidance of doubt, Dove Holes Tunnel is on the freight-only line from Chinley to Peak Forest. I believe the clearance issue was in the nearby Eaves Tunnel on the Buxton to Hazel Grove line.
 
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tbtc

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Trying to be logical about what routes would be best priorities (and not just suggesting all of my local routes...), I guess you are looking at the following criteria?

a. routes that spend a large proportion of their distance/duration on electrified lines
b. routes that could share depots with"pure" 319s (to keep things operational efficient, rather than having a micro fleet)
c. routes where air pollution is an issue (e.g. at busy city centre stations)
d. routes where the current DMU could run faster on the electrified sections, therefore freeing up capacity/ making things more reliable - e.g. a 75mph DMU might be problem on a fast main line, but a 100mph DMU could be a lot better)

Uckfield would be great but AIUI the 20m bodies aren't suitable for a tunnel on the line, so I've discounted that route.

Manchester to Windermere makes a lot of sense, given the large amount of the distance that is under the wires - the only question for me would be whether the Windermere branch requires regular services to Manchester, given the opportunity cost of paths on the busy bits of lines in between (Windermere is the kind of route that tends to get a lot of focus/ love on here, because people have soft spots for scenic branches, but using a path through Castlefield/ Bolton/ Preston etc comes at the cost of not using it for other services).

The Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton service would certainly tick all of the "boxes" I've listed above (electrified as far as Hazel Grove, 319s already operate around Manchester, air quality at Piccadilly isn't as bad as at some city centre stations but could be better and being able to path them at 100mph towards Stockport might be a better use of capacity_)

There are various other services around Manchester but I'm loathe to suggest many of them as they are really routes that shouldn't be operating in their current guise as they are too complicated (e.g. Southport to Alderley Edge really ought to be chopped in two).

A local route to me would be the Dearne Valley stopper - there are obvious issues with a slow DMU on the line from Leeds to the junction at Moorthorpe - plus it'd mean that the capacity was equivalent to the other stopper on the electrified section (the Doncaster EMUs).

The Fife Circle is a left field suggestion - there are no other 319s north of the border but, given that there seems little scope of electrification over the Forth Bridge, it'd be a way of improving pollution rates at Waverley/ Haymarket, the 319 would be suitable for that kind of "commuter" route, I don't know if the platforms could take 160m long trains though, or are optimised for (6x23 =) 138m instead?

Some suggestions seem a bit... optimistic... e.g. having a micro fleet for the three units required to run the S&C... but there's some good suggestions too.
 

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Some suggestions seem a bit... optimistic... e.g. having a micro fleet for the three units required to run the S&C...

If Northern had more 769s than just those three so they weren't a maintenance microfleet, this isn't exactly prohibitive, e.g. there used to be the two dedicated Conwy Valley 101s which were just maintained with all FNW's other ones.
 

wtom

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Leeds-Sheffield via Wakefield Westgate also seems perfect to me- switch between diesel and electric at Fitzwilliam- and would justify having a slightly larger fleet of them at Neville Hill.
 
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