Are there too many ‘preserved’ diesels and how could they be thinned out?

[randyrippley]

Given the OP mentioned Westerns, and given the number of 47s languishing across the country, I can't help thinking Falcon Mk2 In fairness it's about the only half decent reason to lose a Western, though it may be there's more than enough MD655s for them all.

Falcon had German built engines, not Bristol-Siddeley so authenticity would be a problem, as might peripheral parts availability

 

[Richard Scott]

Falcon had German built engines, not Bristol-Siddeley so authenticity would be a problem, as might peripheral parts availability

Not sure that would matter particularly, they sound the same.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Well yes perhaps some classes are over represented in preservation,20s,37s,47s and 50s for example but the same could be said for Halls,9Fs etc. I don't condone scrapping preserved locos be it steam or diesel. At least a static exhibit could be made from a demic and recieve basic maintenance. How about the 83 recreating being dragged on a Sunday diversion.

 

[47827]

I guess it's one mostly just for the owners and/or the sites/lines the locomotives are intended to be used on. Personal value upon a locomotive type will often win the opinion argument here too as bias will form for many of us naturally. With the challenge of finding parts, adequately skilled volunteer (or occasionally paid) labour and funds to keep them running that will often dictate the viability of how many preserved diesels last. Large numbers will succumb to becoming static exhibits or meet the scrapman in time (possibly surrendering parts to the others that live on) so we don't overly need a pre meditated cull of massive numbers as the more represented examples will simply fade away in time (and probably before their steam equivalents for now as the steamers are marketable and family/tourist friendly in the main be it in the Lake District or on the Severn Valley).

 

[Spartacus]

Not sure that would matter particularly, they sound the same.

I don't think it matters much when it's a hypothetical cut and shut on a 47 with twin engine transplant either

 

[bluenoxid]

What may save some diesels is the ability to pull the power unit out and stick a large electric motor and battery raft in. A few loud speakers and you’ve got your locomotive type recreated.

 

[DarloRich]

A steam loco like 43106 is different in that parts and repairs can be provided by an experienced engineering workshop. The spares can be made,
But if a conrod goes on a diesel, who is going to machine a new crankcase?

No idea who could make one. Sounds hard.

Oh hang on yes i do: an experianced engineering and fabrication company. Perhaps even the same one making your puffer parts.

Must try harder.........

 

[Bevan Price]

Although they don't really count as "preserved", I can imagine some more of the "West Coast" 47s at Carnforth might eventually be cannibalised to keep the others running.

 

[Alanko]

Although they don't really count as "preserved", I can imagine some more of the "West Coast" 47s at Carnforth might eventually be cannibalised to keep the others running.

I saw photos of their setup at Carnforth earlier today. They have a vast collection of derelict 47s. I can only assume these are parts donors rather than candidates for restoration.

 

[Cowley]

I saw photos of their setup at Carnforth earlier today. They have a vast collection of derelict 47s. I can only assume these are parts donors rather than candidates for restoration.

This is where the lines get a bit blurry. To me the West Coast diesels are a main line operational fleet and as you say those locos are a source of spares.
I’d probably consider their steam locomotives to be ‘preserved’ though as I can’t see a situation where they’d be in danger of being scrapped.

 

[reddragon]

Even the preservation section places a 'value' on an old loco. If a diesel loco is common, knackered, full of useful spares for better preserved locos, it will get scrapped. GWsR did this with a class 20.

Same with steam! The last Barry GWR locos have become parts donors for new builds such as the Saint, Grange & County et al. Those locos will no longer exist.

 

[theblackwatch]

This is where the lines get a bit blurry. To me the West Coast diesels are a main line operational fleet and as you say those locos are a source of spares.
I’d probably consider their steam locomotives to be ‘preserved’ though as I can’t see a situation where they’d be in danger of being scrapped.

I realise I am drifting off topic a bit, but the situation is even more complex as I believe the WCRC locos are in fact owned by several different, but related, companies. One of their kettles (Galatea) belongs to a charity, so is definitely 'preserved' (to me!).

 

[Royston Vasey]

What may save some diesels is the ability to pull the power unit out and stick a large electric motor and battery raft in. A few loud speakers and you’ve got your locomotive type recreated.

Good idea. You could call it Revivarail!

 

[Cowley]

I realise I am drifting off topic a bit, but the situation is even more complex as I believe the WCRC locos are in fact owned by several different, but related, companies. One of their kettles (Galatea) belongs to a charity, so is definitely 'preserved' (to me!).

That’s a good point though.

I wonder what the average railway charges for storage outside on a siding? Do any of them charge for it?

 

[alexl92]

That’s a good point though.

I wonder what the average railway charges for storage outside on a siding? Do any of them charge for it?

Many do; some which previously didn’t charge (or charged very little) have recently been evicting rotting rolling stock from their sidings as the owners were paying little more than a peppercorn rent and unwilling to contribute more.

 

[Andrew1395]

when the government bans the use of diesel fuel (and coal) every preserved loco will have to be rebuilt as battery or hydrogen powered anyway. Best to let them sit until the guts have to be replaced.

 

[xotGD]

when the government bans the use of diesel fuel (and coal) every preserved loco will have to be rebuilt as battery or hydrogen powered anyway. Best to let them sit until the guts have to be replaced.

Biodiesel* and torrified wood briquettes solve that problem.

*Or Fischer Tropsch diesel produced via biomass gasification.

Back on topic: Too many preserved 47s, not enough 37s.

 

[Darandio]

when the government bans the use of diesel fuel (and coal) every preserved loco will have to be rebuilt as battery or hydrogen powered anyway. Best to let them sit until the guts have to be replaced.

That won't happen.

 

[Cowley]

Back on topic: Too many preserved 47s, not enough 37s.

Ouch.
It was interesting seeing all the beautifully restored class 37s like 37025 and 37057 end up back out on the main line earning revenue a few years ago.
There’s not too many 37s (apart from a couple of christmas trees at Carnforth) that won’t ever turn a wheel again I think?

 

[reddragon]

That won't happen.

Of course nobody will 'ban' diesel, it will just become more costly then wine then unavailable!

 

[D1537]

Well yes perhaps some classes are over represented in preservation,20s,37s,47s and 50s for example

Back on topic: Too many preserved 47s, not enough 37s.

Looking at classes with significant numbers in preservation ...

Class 47s preserved: 31/512 = 6.0% of class
Class 25s preserved: 20/327 = 6.1% of class
Class 20s preserved: 22/228 = 9.6% of class
Class 31s preserved: 29/263 = 11.0% of class
Class 37s preserved: 35/309 = 11.3% of class
Class 33s preserved: 29/98 = 29.6% of class
Class 50s preserved: 18/50 = 36.0% of class

 

[43096]

Looking at classes with significant numbers in preservation ...

Class 47s preserved: 31/512 = 6.0% of class
Class 25s preserved: 20/327 = 6.1% of class
Class 20s preserved: 22/228 = 9.6% of class
Class 31s preserved: 29/263 = 11.0% of class
Class 37s preserved: 35/309 = 11.3% of class
Class 33s preserved: 29/98 = 29.6% of class
Class 50s preserved: 18/50 = 36.0% of class

I'm sure there's 51 Class 50s preserved...

You can also add:
Class 55s preserved: 6/22= 27.3% of class

 

[Alanko]

Looking at classes with significant numbers in preservation ...

Class 47s preserved: 31/512 = 6.0% of class
Class 25s preserved: 20/327 = 6.1% of class
Class 20s preserved: 22/228 = 9.6% of class
Class 31s preserved: 29/263 = 11.0% of class
Class 37s preserved: 35/309 = 11.3% of class
Class 33s preserved: 29/98 = 29.6% of class
Class 50s preserved: 18/50 = 36.0% of class

These figures are interesting! The number of 37s seems low, but I assume this might be because there are still some of them out there in service. 37099 and 610 were up in Scotland only a few days ago on a departmental train of some sort, and I've seen photos of a lovely matching pair of 37/4s in York on RHTT duties as well. 37610 looks extensively reworked and remodelled to keep it running in the modern world!

Some locos also seem to flit between the two worlds. 37403 was extensively overhauled at Bo'ness, then DRS used it for a while. It is now back at Bo'ness. I gather 37025 has a similar ping-pong arrangement? It's a Bo'ness loco but seems to spend most of the down south.

It seems like there is a grey area between pure preservation and locos that see some mainline use. I gather LSL don't own all their locos, but presumably they contribute towards crossing the final hurdles that means a loco can go from pottering around a heritage line to hauling charter services on the mainline? This Is my understanding of the two 40s they recently ran up to Edinburgh.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I'm sure there's 51 Class 50s preserved...

You can also add:
Class 55s preserved: 6/22= 27.3% of class

50051 Miserable (old joke from the 80s).
You can never have enough Deltics!!!

Looking at those figures makes you wonder how many locos will have fallen by the wayside in 20 years time.
Looking back to early preservation buying a loco (steam or diesel) meant a major fundraising scheme even into the 80s. From the late 80s onward times were more affluent where even an individual or small group could buy one at scrap value outright from BR hence the large number of popular classes preserved today. It’s great when it works but becomes a problem should it go bang,can one afford to repair it or does it join that linear scrapline.

 

[reddragon]

Class 55s preserved: 6/22= 27.3% of class

Or is it 7/23 Deltics 30.4 % or 7/24 Bodyshells = 29% ??

 

[Irascible]

And in 200 years? 500 years? when accidents have happened/mismanagement means something's rotted etc. If there's too many of something nature will take it's course & eventually a sustainable number will be settled on.

 

[43096]

You can never have enough Deltics!!!

Or is it 7/23 Deltics 30.4 % or 7/24 Bodyshells = 29% ??

Whichever way you look at it, it's too many!

 

[Iskra]

And in 200 years? 500 years? when accidents have happened/mismanagement means something's rotted etc. If there's too many of something nature will take it's course & eventually a sustainable number will be settled on.

I don't think it is nature that will take its course, it's 'the market' that will. If they become astronomically expensive to keep going, that's when there will be a reckoning for those with niche interest or dubious business cases. However, I hope as many continue on in preservation as possible of course.

 

[Worm]

By the same logic, you could argue that the majority of preserved locos are steam engines which take 20 + years to preserve, maybe a bunch of those should be scrapped as we already have hundreds saved.

 

[Alanko]

I don't think it is nature that will take its course, it's 'the market' that will. If they become astronomically expensive to keep going, that's when there will be a reckoning for those with niche interest or dubious business cases. However, I hope as many continue on in preservation as possible of course.

At some point the specialist knowledge required to keep heritage diesel locos running might get a bit scarce.

Perhaps a controversial thought, but maybe some of these locos weren't built especially well to begin with? The 26s and 27s I've seen in preservation appear to be battling corrosion issues. The two 26s at Boat of Garten seem especially grim. Wasn't there an issue with cracked bogies on a 40 that limped around in early preservation?

This technology matured over time, whereas early diesel locos were built to steam-era tolerances