Are there too many ‘preserved’ diesels and how could they be thinned out?

[75A]

There's also the angle of what is ideal traction on a heritage railway. Class 33's have done well in this regard as they satisfy the "goldilocks" principle for many lines, not too big and not too small - ie: can pull 6 coaches easily at line speed 25-30 mph, good axle weight to avoid too much wear on track and sound good.

No steam heat though.

 

[randyrippley]

No steam heat though.

Great
One less thing to corrode old rust-prone coaches

 

[43096]

No steam heat though.

Electric heat is far more sensible anyway.

 

[reddragon]

No steam heat though.

ETH fitted, much easier!

 

[75A]

ETH fitted, much easier!

I'm a Southern man born and bred, brought up on eth & air brakes.
Had the odd vacuum freight which we used to hate.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ultimately all advanced electronics will end up like this. Perhaps a clever fabricator can machine a new engine block - but one-off microchips are simply not a thing

Custom digital logic chips can be fabricated using complex programmable logic devices (CPLDs) and field-programmable gate arrays (FPGAs); these are commonly used when developing and prototyping new systems. We're even getting to the point where some adventurous people have managed to set up basic silicon fabrication plants in their (large) garages!

A greater issue is working out what it is you're trying to replicate, especially if documentation is lacking. While black-box methods (what outputs do you get for particular combinations of inputs) and knowledge of the rest of the system can get you so far, but some mysteries may remain, especially with undocumented "features" .

For the ultimate in reverse engineering, some enterprising individuals crack open microchips, etch away plastic coatings with acid, and grind off tiny layers of the microchip's die, photographing it layer-by-layer with a camera attached to a microscope. This can be achieved by a skilled enthusiast with a well-equipped workshop/shed for top-end chips designed in the 70s and 80s.

Having obtained a good set of die scans, it's possible to visually identify transistors and connections within the die, and reverse-engineer the chip's design from the ground up. Any areas of ROM or microcode (e.g in a microcontroller) can be read out as a grid of present/absent connections representing ones and zeroes, often revealing missing or undocumented instructions. This latter step is often best crowdsourced to a number of electronics enthusiasts, rather than leaving it to the single guy with a microscope.

This is a destructive process, but by sacrificing one chip you can work out exactly what and how it does, and get the information you need to reimplement it yourself.

 

[Richard Scott]

I'm a Southern man born and bred, brought up on eth & air brakes.
Had the odd vacuum freight which we used to hate.

Not surprised, 73s on vacuum are awful!

 

[75A]

Not surprised, 73s on vacuum are awful!

That's being kind.

 

[Neo9320]

For the ultimate in reverse engineering, some enterprising individuals crack open microchips, etch away plastic coatings with acid, and grind off tiny layers of the microchip's die, photographing it layer-by-layer with a camera attached to a microscope. This can be achieved by a skilled enthusiast with a well-equipped workshop/shed for top-end chips designed in the 70s and 80s.

Having obtained a good set of die scans, it's possible to visually identify transistors and connections within the die, and reverse-engineer the chip's design from the ground up. Any areas of ROM or microcode (e.g in a microcontroller) can be read out as a grid of present/absent connections representing ones and zeroes, often revealing missing or undocumented instructions. This latter step is often best crowdsourced to a number of electronics enthusiasts, rather than leaving it to the single guy with a microscope.

This is a destructive process, but by sacrificing one chip you can work out exactly what and how it does, and get the information you need to reimplement it yourself.

Now that is dedication!

 

[Strathclyder]

No, put the TL11 back in it too!!!

Provided you can find any in decent nick not fitted to a preserved bus!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That one, if I was tasked with repainting it in any colour combination of my choice, I would do in a dark green and a canary yellow stripe.

I'd go with BR blue, full yellow ends, TOPS number, a "what might have been" thing. Maybe even Finsbury Park-inspired white cab windows...

It is a Baby Deltic after all!

 

[Cowley]

I'd go with BR blue, full yellow ends, TOPS number, a "what might have been" thing. Maybe even Finsbury Park-inspired white cab windows...

It is a Baby Deltic after all!

Although they didn’t have TOPS numbers and white window surrounds (nice idea by the way), D5909 did make it into BR blue:

Class 23 D5909 Stratford

Class 23 'Baby Deltic' No. D5909 at Stratford on May 11, 1971. The loco is in refurbished format (with headcode box rather than discs) and was the only member of class to receive BR blue livery. It entered service in 1959, was withdrawn in March 1971, and cut at Cohen's in Kettering in August...

www.flickr.com

(Sending myself to bed early for going off topic now)

 

[jopsuk]

Preservation isn't a coherent movement, it's a mass of individuals and organisations, some of whom might not even like one another. There's no overarching guiding hand that could even organise a thinning of the herd, even if that were actually desirable

 

[Cowley]

Preservation isn't a coherent movement, it's a mass of individuals and organisations, some of whom might not even like one another. There's no overarching guiding hand that could even organise a thinning of the herd, even if that were actually desirable

Is the correct answer.

 

[Richard Scott]

Preservation isn't a coherent movement, it's a mass of individuals and organisations, some of whom might not even like one another. There's no overarching guiding hand that could even organise a thinning of the herd, even if that were actually desirable

Along similar lines there are those that moan that a particular loco shouldn't be in that livery or a certain detail is wrong. To those people I would say roll up your sleeves and work on the loco then.
This is the whole point, locos are often owned by groups of whom a few active volunteers maintain them. Who is anyone to come along and say the efforts aren't worthy and the loco would be better off broken for parts as there are too many of this particular type preserved?

 

[Cowley]

Along similar lines there are those that moan that a particular loco shouldn't be in that livery or a certain detail is wrong. To those people I would say roll up your sleeves and work on the loco then.
This is the whole point, locos are often owned by groups of whom a few active volunteers maintain them. Who is anyone to come along and say the efforts aren't worthy and the loco would be better off broken for parts as there are too many of this particular type preserved?

Again absolutely right. None of us really have a right to say anything negative unless we’ve taken the time to get involved with restoring a locomotive/piece of rolling stock etc.
It’s very easy to stand on the sidelines and say what we think should happen, but we’re entirely reliant as enthusiasts on those who put their money where their mouths are if we’re to appreciate what we get to enjoy out there.

This is an important point that gets missed a little bit too often in my opinion actually.

 

[D6968]

Again absolutely right. None of us really have a right to say anything negative unless we’ve taken the time to get involved with restoring a locomotive/piece of rolling stock etc.
It’s very easy to stand on the sidelines and say what we think should happen, but we’re entirely reliant as enthusiasts on those who put their money where their mouths are if we’re to appreciate what we get to enjoy out there.

This is an important point that gets missed a little bit too often in my opinion actually.

Hear Hear

 

[LGM08]

Again absolutely right. None of us really have a right to say anything negative unless we’ve taken the time to get involved with restoring a locomotive/piece of rolling stock etc.
It’s very easy to stand on the sidelines and say what we think should happen, but we’re entirely reliant as enthusiasts on those who put their money where their mouths are if we’re to appreciate what we get to enjoy out there.

This is an important point that gets missed a little bit too often in my opinion actually.

Agree with you. I maintain 50 015 and even though it’s multi coloured yellow the amount of sheer work that’s we’ve done to the actual bodywork to get it to the state that it’s in now has actually been hard work. Engine wise the tubs good but bodywork wise the rust spots were starting to show. We’ve tackled most of it but due to weather we’re unable to finish the secondman side.
The amount of people that have commented on the bodywork but don’t realise what happens behind the scenes and the amount of hours we have to put in the maintain the bloody thing, they just jump on and ride behind to love the thrash and then go home.

 

[Magdalia]

Anyone who has been listening to Radio 4 at 0900 every morning this week will have learned something about how demography affects economies and societies. The last of 5 programmes will be broadcast shortly. The fortunes of the railway preservation movement are inextricably dependent on changes in demography.

Britain had a baby boom in 1946 and 1947, when men came home after World War II. Those babies are now in their mid 70s. Another baby boom was in the late 1950s and early 1960s, when those too young to fight were old enough to have children. Those children are now in the late 50s and early 60s.

Funding preservation has never been a problem. There's lots of baby boomer railway people (nearly all men) with generous pensions, priv travel, and often with no children.

The main constraint on preservation has always been the volunteer workforce. Unfortunately we are now reaching the time when the baby boomers are dropping out of active volunteering, sadly this is often due to ill health.

The locomotives that survive will be those that can recruit new and younger volunteers to carry on when the baby boomers are too old for long weekends of volunteer work, sometimes in conditions that would not be acceptable in paid employment.

And the funds available need to go into improved facilities, not more locomotives. The shed at Kidderminster is a good example of this.

 

[reddragon]

Agree with you. I maintain 50 015 and even though it’s multi coloured yellow the amount of sheer work that’s we’ve done to the actual bodywork to get it to the state that it’s in now has actually been hard work. Engine wise the tubs good but bodywork wise the rust spots were starting to show. We’ve tackled most of it but due to weather we’re unable to finish the secondman side.
The amount of people that have commented on the bodywork but don’t realise what happens behind the scenes and the amount of hours we have to put in the maintain the bloody thing, they just jump on and ride behind to love the thrash and then go home.

The problem is that numbers to do all the hard work, especially as rust levels grow will diminish making keeping all the loco's that exist today work impossible. The Class 50's have become dependant of power units from Portugal for example.

Certain locos types with stressed bodysides will be the first to suffer & be scrapped.

 

[LGM08]

The problem is that numbers to do all the hard work, especially as rust levels grow will diminish making keeping all the loco's that exist today work impossible. The Class 50's have become dependant of power units from Portugal for example.

Totally agree with you, there’s going to be a point in a loco’s life when you question is the money worth it, parts are slowly becoming rarer so stocking them up when another loco gets scrapped is key to keeping it running. Things can be made, but they come at a price. I’m sure other heritage lines are the same and what they’re struggling with at the moment is young volunteers stepping forward. Our group is fortunate as we have a few young fans that have now joined given they’re now at the age to be able to do that. Most young ones want to spend their time playing on computer games etc.

 

[Cowley]

Totally agree with you, there’s going to be a point in a loco’s life when you question is the money worth it, parts are slowly becoming rarer so stocking them up when another loco gets scrapped is key to keeping it running. Things can be made, but they come at a price. I’m sure other heritage lines are the same and what they’re struggling with at the moment is young volunteers stepping forward. Our group is fortunate as we have a few young fans that have now joined given they’re now at the age to be able to do that. Most young ones want to spend their time playing on computer games etc.

Good points.
I sometimes think as well that when I was a teenager in the 1980s there were an awful lot of us standing at the end of platform 5/6 on Exeter st David’s watching the likes of Valiant setting off up the bank towards Waterloo.
Skip forward even ten years and that had changed…
I bet a percentage of those people are the ones that were moved enough to get involved with preserving these locomotives mainly by seeing them in everyday action back in the day, but those times are getting further and further away now.

 

[Richard Scott]

Good points.
I sometimes think as well that when I was a teenager in the 1980s there were an awful lot of us standing at the end of platform 5/6 on Exeter st David’s watching the likes of Valiant setting off up the bank towards Waterloo.
Skip forward even ten years and that had changed…
I bet a percentage of those people are the ones that were moved enough to get involved with preserving these locomotives mainly by seeing them in everyday action back in the day, but those times are getting further and further away now.

With a few more of us on the train going up the bank!!! Know the loco I'm involved with I never saw in traffic but rode behind a good few of its classmates. We're also encouraging the younger generation to get involved to ensure continued survival of the loco. A good number of youngsters are interested in early era diesels just because of the noise they make and not fussed that they didn't see them in service.

 

[Cowley]

With a few more of us on the train going up the bank!!! Know the loco I'm involved with I never saw in traffic but rode behind a good few of its classmates. We're also encouraging the younger generation to get involved to ensure continued survival of the loco. A good number of youngsters are interested in early era diesels just because of the noise they make and not fussed that they didn't see them in service.

That’s really good to hear actually.

 

[jopsuk]

Anyone who has been listening to Radio 4 at 0900 every morning this week will have learned something about how demography affects economies and societies. The last of 5 programmes will be broadcast shortly. The fortunes of the railway preservation movement are inextricably dependent on changes in demography.

Britain had a baby boom in 1946 and 1947, when men came home after World War II. Those babies are now in their mid 70s. Another baby boom was in the late 1950s and early 1960s, when those too young to fight were old enough to have children. Those children are now in the late 50s and early 60s.

Funding preservation has never been a problem. There's lots of baby boomer railway people (nearly all men) with generous pensions, priv travel, and often with no children.

The main constraint on preservation has always been the volunteer workforce. Unfortunately we are now reaching the time when the baby boomers are dropping out of active volunteering, sadly this is often due to ill health.

The locomotives that survive will be those that can recruit new and younger volunteers to carry on when the baby boomers are too old for long weekends of volunteer work, sometimes in conditions that would not be acceptable in paid employment.

And the funds available need to go into improved facilities, not more locomotives. The shed at Kidderminster is a good example of this.

there's an additional factor here of course- the preserved locos, especially the diesels, are those that those boomers remember from the childhoods and early working lives. That's a strong nostalgia draw, and something that's less powerful with younger people with less memories of them.

 

[Towers]

The 1904 NER Autocar running at Embsay uses redundant parts from HST to enable it to operate authentically restored cosmetically but using more modern mechanical motive power, the LMS 10000 recreation is similar.

That's interesting, which HST parts does it use?