Are train speeds in the UK measured in Mph/Kph?

[ALX400boi]

This may sound dumb, as road-vehicles drive in mph in the UK, but I've wondered if trains are the same. What if they cross countries where road vehicles travel in kph?
I don't know, I hope I don't sound stupid, I'm just wondering.

 

[AlterEgo]

Train speeds in Great Britain are in mph.

 

[ALX400boi]

Thank you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Train speeds in Great Britain are in mph.

Does this also apply to HS1?

 

[Trainguy34]

Does this also apply to HS1?

HS1 has Both, domestic run according to Mph, International run on kmh I think

 

[jfollows]

Of course, trains themselves travel at light years per millenium, if you want to measure them this way. Some distance markers are in kilometres nowadays on some lines, but speeds remain normally measured in miles per hour of course.

 

[pdeaves]

Does this also apply to HS1?

No, HS1 (and the various metro systems) uses km/h.

 

[D365]

The only service trains that [currently] operate using metric speeds are Eurostar and (I think?) the Class 92s on HS1.

 

[Trainguy34]

No, HS1 (and the various metro systems) uses km/h.

Does this get confusing when 395s switch over at Ashford Intl

 

[christopher]

Doesn't some of the Underground (Central?) and the DLR use KPH?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Does this get confusing when 395s switch over at Ashford Intl

No. The 395s display metric km/h on AC, mph on DC.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The only service trains that [currently] operate using metric speeds are Eurostar and (I think?) the Class 92s on HS1.

Tyne & Wear Metro uses km/h and always has done

 

[IndianPacific]

The only service trains that [currently] operate using metric speeds are Eurostar and (I think?) the Class 92s on HS1.

And the Cambrian line unless they've updated it?

The different bits of ETCS talk to each other in kilometers per hour, and Cambrian (as the initial deployment) stuck with that. Thameslink (and I'm guessing the other bits of ETCS at Heathrow etc) did some assessments to say 50 km/h (31.07mph) was close enough to 30 mph (what the signs say) to not cause a problem.

As per this example shown on Wikipedia from the Cambrian Line, lines with metric speed limits will have their speed boards as white writing on a black background, instead of the usual black text on white background.

 

[43066]

TL and Crossrail at some points, also.

 

[59CosG95]

And the Cambrian line unless they've updated it?

The different bits of ETCS talk to each other in kilometers per hour, and Cambrian (as the initial deployment) stuck with that. Thameslink (and I'm guessing the other bits of ETCS at Heathrow etc) did some assessments to say 50 km/h (31.07mph) was close enough to 30 mph (what the signs say) to not cause a problem.

As per this example shown on Wikipedia from the Cambrian Line, lines with metric speed limits will have their speed boards as white writing on a black background, instead of the usual black text on white background.

Of course, on the T&W Metro, they have hexagonal signs and a speed designation too. Still black font on a white background however.

 

[zwk500]

TL and Crossrail at some points, also.

Crossrail and Thameslink are described in mph in the Sectional appendix. Crossrail uses the kph increments converted to mph, IIRC.

This may sound dumb, as road-vehicles drive in mph in the UK, but I've wondered if trains are the same. What if they cross countries where road vehicles travel in kph?
I don't know, I hope I don't sound stupid, I'm just wondering.

There are only a couple of crossborder services in the UK: Eurostar uses kph entirely from St Pancras to France, I don't know what Enterprise does when crossing the Irish border. The Eurotunnel Shuttle uses KPH throughout, and freight will use kph from Dollands Moor through the tunnel.

 

[43066]

Crossrail and Thameslink are described in mph in the Sectional appendix. Crossrail uses the kph increments converted to mph, IIRC.

I seem to remember ERTMS speeds are displayed to the drivers in KPH (can anyone confirm?), so perhaps just converted to MPH for the SA.

 

[Egg Centric]

Crossrail and Thameslink are described in mph in the Sectional appendix. Crossrail uses the kph increments converted to mph, IIRC.


There are only a couple of crossborder services in the UK: Eurostar uses kph entirely from St Pancras to France, I don't know what Enterprise does when crossing the Irish border. The Eurotunnel Shuttle uses KPH throughout, and freight will use kph from Dollands Moor through the tunnel.

ROI still uses mph for the mainline

 

[zwk500]

I seem to remember ERTMS speeds are displayed to the drivers in KPH (can anyone confirm?), so perhaps just converted to MPH for the SA.

ETCS! (Sorry its a bugbear of mine - the signalling system is ETCS, ERTMS is the overall traffic management system to assist in regulation and control type functions)

 

[snowball]

I think most tram systems use km/h, but Manchester Metrolink is an exception and uses mph.

 

[43066]

ETCS! (Sorry its a bugbear of mine - the signalling system is ETCS, ERTMS is the overall traffic management system to assist in regulation and control type functions)

I’ll consider myself duly admonished. I did actually know that but was being sloppy!

 

[Speed43125]

I seem to remember ERTMS speeds are displayed to the drivers in KPH (can anyone confirm?), so perhaps just converted to MPH for the SA.

That's right. Although (at least on 158s) the needle is in the same position as it would be for MPH - eg. if 50 mph is at 30°, then 80 km/h would be in the same position of 30° so a quick glance gives you the same visual information.

 

[zwk500]

I’ll consider myself duly admonished. I did actually know that but was being sloppy!

Quite alright, the Sectional Appendix makes the same mistake at least once I'm sure.
Also the terms are used quite flexibly by the official EU websites I think

 

[Bald Rick]

TL and Crossrail at some points, also.

Crossrail and Thameslink are described in mph in the Sectional appendix. Crossrail uses the kph increments converted to mph, IIRC.

I seem to remember ERTMS speeds are displayed to the drivers in KPH (can anyone confirm?), so perhaps just converted to MPH for the SA.

AIUI, when in ATO both TL and EL trains run to kmh (50 / 100 kph max speed in the respective cores).

I must admit I don’t remember what units the speed limit is displayed as when being driven (by the driver) in ETCS / CBTC respectively, and I’ve been in the cab for both so should really know!

 

[IndianPacific]

I seem to remember ERTMS speeds are displayed to the drivers in KPH (can anyone confirm?), so perhaps just converted to MPH for the SA.

It's configurable*, on Thameslink they use mph. Cambrian they use km/h. Cambrian, Thameslink and Western all have different "Country" codes (read as region codes as Network Rail has reserved 50 numbers) which define the default parameters for that area.

I believe the rule of thumb they were aiming for was to stick to mph on overlay areas (where ETCS is deployed but colour light signals stay) and switch to km/h for signals away projects. Not sure if that's still the plan.

As my previous post, ETCS's native language is km/h, so it's only really the display that's different.

*Edit to clarify 'configurable', this is configurable to the people delivering the project. Not something the driver can select.

 

[MarkyT]

ISTR reading the TSIs allow(ed) the UK to continue using mph for signage and DMI display purposes in ETCS if desired, but clearly, under the hood the data and calculations are all metric. It's fairly trivial for computer-based systems to do the conversions in real-time of course. So in a post-EU UK, doing what the heck we want now, we can do exactly the same as we were allowed to do before, if we desire.

 

[zwk500]

ISTR reading the TSIs allow(ed) the UK to continue using mph for signage and DMI display purposes in ETCS if desired, but clearly, under the hood the data and calculations are all metric. It's fairly trivial for computer-based systems to do the conversions in real-time of course. So in a post-EU UK, doing what the heck we want now, we can do exactly the same as we were allowed to do before, if we desire.

I'm fairly sure the TSIs were all kept on as some other acronym.

 

[IndianPacific]

I'm fairly sure the TSIs were all kept on as some other acronym.

National Technical Specification Notices (NTSNs), these still point to the ERA website for all technical detail. From my (very limited) exposure, there is no real desire in the industry to depart from what the rest of the world is doing. ETCS has been picked up by many non-EU countries and customers like the interoperability of track and train and relative that it allows.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm fairly sure the TSIs were all kept on as some other acronym.

While that's true now, we'll have to see what the "bonfire of needless EU regulation" does to them in the Bill now going through Parliament.
They seem determined to alter the legislation that gave us EU261 for air travel delay compensation - to something lower for domestic UK flights.
Apparently there are 800 pieces of legislation to change across government (down from 3000-odd when they started), with transport one of the affected sectors.

 

[craigybagel]

And the Cambrian line unless they've updated it?

The different bits of ETCS talk to each other in kilometers per hour, and Cambrian (as the initial deployment) stuck with that. Thameslink (and I'm guessing the other bits of ETCS at Heathrow etc) did some assessments to say 50 km/h (31.07mph) was close enough to 30 mph (what the signs say) to not cause a problem.

As per this example shown on Wikipedia from the Cambrian Line, lines with metric speed limits will have their speed boards as white writing on a black background, instead of the usual black text on white background.

Still in KPH on the Cambrian. The digital Speedo on the ERTMS screen shows in KMH when on ERTMS and in MPH when it's in level 0. If ERTMS is isolated it falls back to an analogue speedometer which shows both kmh and mph.

The 197s when running with ETCS isolated still use the digital screen to show a speedometer - and you can set that to either kmh or mph by tapping it. I don't know if you'll still be able to change it when running in level 0 or 2 however.