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Arriva (Beds, Bucks, Herts)

RELL6L

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Hertfordshire June 2024 changes are up on Intalink, almost entirely on Arriva routes. Relevant changes quoted below.

Of particular note are the 100/101 becoming the 100/101/102 (part of the aforementioned BSIP package?) and the 328 being withdrawn.
I can't say I am impressed by the changes to the 100/1/2, even though the current timetable is an awful mess with each route every 40 minutes.

There are cuts ahead in High Wycombe which, in my view, are either because Arriva does not have the resources - particularly vehicles - to meet the current timetable or else because its period of poor reliability (made worse by the uncertain reliability of the App) has driven passengers away. After the changes were introduced last September we were told how well demand had picked up. There are also significant cuts in Aylesbury and the 328 in Watford is to be withdrawn - incredible how much Arriva have cut services in and around Watford, in the past services to Abbotts Langley, North Watford and South Oxhey were some of the most frequent.

Yet extra resources are being found for an increase the 100/1/2 timetable. Just as Stagecoach are competing on the Hitchin to Stevenage corridor then Arriva find they are able to increase their service here, and miss out Little Wymondley - all looks rather opportunistic. Or is it really Hertfordshire BSIP funding? I think this would be odd as a much of the route is in Bedfordshire.

Reliability has improved in Wycombe but some vehicles have been off the road for some time, notably 2982, 4212 and 6149. Also 3007 reappeared very briefly, initially tracking as 2327, but is now off the road again after two spells of nearly 3 months each since last September. Some other vehicles often fail to track, notably 3010. 3013, 3027, 5460.
 
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LUYMun

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Is there any justification as to why the 724 has to run all the way from Heathrow Airport to Harlow? I’ve had two experiences travelling on the 724 in the past several months, and both times buses were running late by well into the double digits. I doubt many passengers will travel the whole length, so splitting it at St Albans, as per Bustimes data, should eliminate late running and focus resources on the Heathrow runs.
 

Mwanesh

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Is there any justification as to why the 724 has to run all the way from Heathrow Airport to Harlow? I’ve had two experiences travelling on the 724 in the past several months, and both times buses were running late by well into the double digits. I doubt many passengers will travel the whole length, so splitting it at St Albans, as per Bustimes data, should eliminate late running and focus resources on the Heathrow runs.
The depot is in Harlow. Splitting it at St Albans is who will operate it. Luton is full to capacity. Hemel if also full after the closure of Watford. Drivers hours permit one round trip. It's a non starter if there was a depot in St Albans there will be staff shuttles to consider which will eat into working time
 

Deerfold

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Hertfordshire June 2024 changes are up on Intalink, almost entirely on Arriva routes. Relevant changes quoted below.

Of particular note are the 100/101 becoming the 100/101/102 (part of the aforementioned BSIP package?) and the 328 being withdrawn.

Looks like the 102 is just peaks, but it's not long ago that there were one of each of the 100/101/102 an hour then it increased to four an hour with two of one of them. Now's it's odd with each service being every 40 minutes, but overall every 20. The additional evening journey is something I'm surprised didn't come decades earlier - a bus that can support 3-4 buses an hour during the day shouldn't drop to 2-hourly in an evening. The large gap has been filled by other operators between Hitchin and Stevenage in the past for a while (as Stagecoach are doing from Stevenage at the moment), but Arriva and Herts County Council have never shown any interest

It does seem to be the most common corridor for competition in the area. When I lived on the routes nearly 20 years ago we had the 301, 900, 625, 635, 615 in the 3 years we were there.

The 301 was very useful to me when it still ran to Hitchin as it linked Stevenage Road direct to the station, but the Hitchin to Lister hospital was the first bit Arriva chopped after buying Sovereign.
 
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Simon75

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The depot is in Harlow. Splitting it at St Albans is who will operate it. Luton is full to capacity. Hemel if also full after the closure of Watford. Drivers hours permit one round trip. It's a non starter if there was a depot in St Albans there will be staff shuttles to consider which will eat into working time
I think it was also once jointly run with Ware garage
 

A0wen

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I think it was also once jointly run with Ware garage

If you go back far enough IIRC it was split across Garston, Hatfield, Hertford and Harlow garages in London Country days.

Is there any justification as to why the 724 has to run all the way from Heathrow Airport to Harlow? I’ve had two experiences travelling on the 724 in the past several months, and both times buses were running late by well into the double digits. I doubt many passengers will travel the whole length, so splitting it at St Albans, as per Bustimes data, should eliminate late running and focus resources on the Heathrow runs.

If you split it you lose Hertford - Watford connectivity and points from Harlow - Watford their connection to Heathrow Airport, though with the Elizabeth Line now in operation that may be of less consequence than when the only other way was a slow journey on the Piccadilly Line.
 

Voyager 2953

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3007 had an engine fitted but still has an issue with the engine.

6149 has returned to Maidstone after having its engine blown

2982 did an outing on the 800/850 with the ticket machine borrowed from 3009.

5460 now has a working ticket machine.

It’s really something when services are cut because of lack of serviceable vehicles. What sort of message is this sending out.

I agree it was just a few months ago we were told how excellent these changes were and how that the network was picking up. It’s all comedic really. More passengers are using Carousel Buses and the X74 along the London Road because there’s a chance the Arriva bus might not come. The changes that were implemented didn’t do much good. Hopefully I Squared launch a review into the positions of some.
 

Mcv378

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Is there any justification as to why the 724 has to run all the way from Heathrow Airport to Harlow? I’ve had two experiences travelling on the 724 in the past several months, and both times buses were running late by well into the double digits. I doubt many passengers will travel the whole length, so splitting it at St Albans, as per Bustimes data, should eliminate late running and focus resources on the Heathrow runs.
I've noticed that a lot of the 724 services advertise a split in the service at St Albans by way of a five minute wait.

I am due to take this service in a months time. Is it £2 all the way from Heathrow to Harlow or would I need to buy another ticket from St Albans onwards.
 

Simon75

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I've noticed that a lot of the 724 services advertise a split in the service at St Albans by way of a five minute wait.
This is to get round the buses having tachographs.
I am due to take this service in a months time. Is it £2 all the way from Heathrow to Harlow or would I need to buy another ticket from St Albans onwards.

Yes, it's £2 from Harlow to Heathrow.
 
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LUYMun

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The depot is in Harlow. Splitting it at St Albans is who will operate it. Luton is full to capacity. Hemel if also full after the closure of Watford. Drivers hours permit one round trip. It's a non starter if there was a depot in St Albans there will be staff shuttles to consider which will eat into working time
The costs of setting up an outstation at St Albans would be negligible when the main focus of splitting the 724 is to eliminate constant late-running. It must be having an adverse affect on Arriva's total punctuality if it continues at this rate. Furthermore, driver's hours is a non-issue, considering (and I'm assuming this is the case as I only travelled the Heathrow-Watford section both times) that drivers swap over at St Albans, which explains the 'technical split' there, so there's little difference to the staff roster. If anything, it should help concentrate resources within either sections.

If you split it you lose Hertford - Watford connectivity and points from Harlow - Watford their connection to Heathrow Airport, though with the Elizabeth Line now in operation that may be of less consequence than when the only other way was a slow journey on the Piccadilly Line.
Again, is there a large number of people willing to travel all the way from east of St Albans to Heathrow? Even for the tempting £2 single fare and the 724 being limited stop, the slow radial route would be no match for Hatfield, Welwyn, Ware or Harlow when taking a train into any London termini and thereon Crossrail is quicker and more frequent. As for radial journeys between Hertford and Watford and the like - again, I wouldn't guess a huge number would travel by bus, given the M25 conveniently parallels the 724.
 

Haywain

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I can't say I am impressed by the changes to the 100/1/2, even though the current timetable is an awful mess with each route every 40 minutes.
It's a well used service and an increase to 4 buses per hour is very welcome, especially as tagging the airport run on the the end of the 100 will improve consistency of town centre to town centre journey times.
I think this would be odd as a much of the route is in Bedfordshire.
None of the route is in Bedfordshire - it goes directly from North Hertfordshire to Luton, the latter hasn't been part of Bedfordshire for administrative purposes since the mid-1960s.
 

Deerfold

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.

None of the route is in Bedfordshire - it goes directly from North Hertfordshire to Luton, the latter hasn't been part of Bedfordshire for administrative purposes since the mid-1960s.
That's just after they talked about Stagecoach's 9/A/B/C/D which now extends from Hitchin to Stevenage, generally a couple of times an hour.
 

RELL6L

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The costs of setting up an outstation at St Albans would be negligible when the main focus of splitting the 724 is to eliminate constant late-running. It must be having an adverse affect on Arriva's total punctuality if it continues at this rate. Furthermore, driver's hours is a non-issue, considering (and I'm assuming this is the case as I only travelled the Heathrow-Watford section both times) that drivers swap over at St Albans, which explains the 'technical split' there, so there's little difference to the staff roster. If anything, it should help concentrate resources within either sections.


Again, is there a large number of people willing to travel all the way from east of St Albans to Heathrow? Even for the tempting £2 single fare and the 724 being limited stop, the slow radial route would be no match for Hatfield, Welwyn, Ware or Harlow when taking a train into any London termini and thereon Crossrail is quicker and more frequent. As for radial journeys between Hertford and Watford and the like - again, I wouldn't guess a huge number would travel by bus, given the M25 conveniently parallels the 724.
No, drivers do not swap over at St Albans. Arriva has no presence in St Albans apart from a number of routes passing through. Drivers from Harlow go to Heathrow, have a break and return, that is their work for the day. The 'technical split' is just maximum length of route nonsense. At the moment the route is just the right length for a driver's day to go there and back.

Looking at the routes one might think that it would be better to stick the Rickmansworth to Heathrow section on the 725 rather than the 724. But at the moment the 725 does Stevenage to Rickmansworth and back in a single shift. If you extended to Heathrow you'd have to have a break at Heathrow and then return, to fill out a whole working day then something else would have to be added at the Stevenage end before or after the shift. And on the 724 you'd need a break at Rickmansworth and then add some extra work before or after at the Harlow end. Very complicated.

In the old days there were a number of Green Line routes across London which worked on this basis, the most straightforward ones being base garage - London- far end garage, such as the 714 Luton-London-Dorking. A driver drove to the far end, had a break at the canteen there and returned home. Generally 16 journeys a day with four vehicles and eight drivers from each end. The 724 is about the only route remaining which runs one end to the other, then a break, then back. The 724 is all from a single base which only works because it is a 24 hour service, the 01.05 from Harlow seems a weird time but when it returns it will be providing morning rush hour services into Hertford and Harlow. There isn't any other Arriva depot sensibly placed anywhere near the western end to split it up, the cost of setting up an outstation in St Albans would be totally disproportionate to the benefit.

In London Country days the 724 was originally Romford and High Wycombe, later Staines ran it at the western end when it was diverted to Heathrow and then Harlow at the east when Romford closed. Hertford may have been involved before it closed, I am sure Ware was, but I don't believe Hatfield, St Albans or Garston ever had anything to do with running the route. St Albans ran the parallel 727 for many years.

Yes it suffers from traffic congestion but I think there are too many useful links it provides across Hertfordshire that it is best left alone. It seems to work and carry passengers. The economic given the £2 fare - that's another story!

None of the route is in Bedfordshire - it goes directly from North Hertfordshire to Luton, the latter hasn't been part of Bedfordshire for administrative purposes since the mid-1960s.
Silly me - living in the past again! Not the mid-1960s I don't think but certainly some time.
 

Haywain

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That's just after they talked about Stagecoach's 9/A/B/C/D which now extends from Hitchin to Stevenage, generally a couple of times an hour.
This is the whole paragraph, which makes it pretty clear it's a reference to the routes to Luton:
Yet extra resources are being found for an increase the 100/1/2 timetable. Just as Stagecoach are competing on the Hitchin to Stevenage corridor then Arriva find they are able to increase their service here, and miss out Little Wymondley - all looks rather opportunistic. Or is it really Hertfordshire BSIP funding? I think this would be odd as a much of the route is in Bedfordshire.
If it is referring to the Stagecoach routes, it's far from clear.

Not the mid-1960s I don't think but certainly some time.
Well, county borough status in 1964 but back to district level from 1974 to 1997, and independent again from 1997.
 

A0wen

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No, drivers do not swap over at St Albans. Arriva has no presence in St Albans apart from a number of routes passing through. Drivers from Harlow go to Heathrow, have a break and return, that is their work for the day. The 'technical split' is just maximum length of route nonsense. At the moment the route is just the right length for a driver's day to go there and back.

Looking at the routes one might think that it would be better to stick the Rickmansworth to Heathrow section on the 725 rather than the 724. But at the moment the 725 does Stevenage to Rickmansworth and back in a single shift. If you extended to Heathrow you'd have to have a break at Heathrow and then return, to fill out a whole working day then something else would have to be added at the Stevenage end before or after the shift. And on the 724 you'd need a break at Rickmansworth and then add some extra work before or after at the Harlow end. Very complicated.

In the old days there were a number of Green Line routes across London which worked on this basis, the most straightforward ones being base garage - London- far end garage, such as the 714 Luton-London-Dorking. A driver drove to the far end, had a break at the canteen there and returned home. Generally 16 journeys a day with four vehicles and eight drivers from each end. The 724 is about the only route remaining which runs one end to the other, then a break, then back. The 724 is all from a single base which only works because it is a 24 hour service, the 01.05 from Harlow seems a weird time but when it returns it will be providing morning rush hour services into Hertford and Harlow. There isn't any other Arriva depot sensibly placed anywhere near the western end to split it up, the cost of setting up an outstation in St Albans would be totally disproportionate to the benefit.

In London Country days the 724 was originally Romford and High Wycombe, later Staines ran it at the western end when it was diverted to Heathrow and then Harlow at the east when Romford closed. Hertford may have been involved before it closed, I am sure Ware was, but I don't believe Hatfield, St Albans or Garston ever had anything to do with running the route. St Albans ran the parallel 727 for many years.

Yes it suffers from traffic congestion but I think there are too many useful links it provides across Hertfordshire that it is best left alone. It seems to work and carry passengers. The economic given the £2 fare - that's another story!


Silly me - living in the past again! Not the mid-1960s I don't think but certainly some time.

Sovereign definitely had some turns on the 724 and Sovereign took over Hatfield and St Albans depots - in fact there's a picture here of the Volvo B57 / Wadham Stringer inherited when they took over Jubilee Coaches in Sovereign colours working a 724.

 
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LUYMun

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No, drivers do not swap over at St Albans. Arriva has no presence in St Albans apart from a number of routes passing through. Drivers from Harlow go to Heathrow, have a break and return, that is their work for the day. The 'technical split' is just maximum length of route nonsense. At the moment the route is just the right length for a driver's day to go there and back.

[...]

In the old days there were a number of Green Line routes across London which worked on this basis, the most straightforward ones being base garage - London- far end garage, such as the 714 Luton-London-Dorking. A driver drove to the far end, had a break at the canteen there and returned home. Generally 16 journeys a day with four vehicles and eight drivers from each end. The 724 is about the only route remaining which runs one end to the other, then a break, then back. The 724 is all from a single base which only works because it is a 24 hour service, the 01.05 from Harlow seems a weird time but when it returns it will be providing morning rush hour services into Hertford and Harlow. There isn't any other Arriva depot sensibly placed anywhere near the western end to split it up, the cost of setting up an outstation in St Albans would be totally disproportionate to the benefit.

[...]

Yes it suffers from traffic congestion but I think there are too many useful links it provides across Hertfordshire that it is best left alone. It seems to work and carry passengers.
I stand corrected on the St Albans split. However, this doesn't ignore the fact that its long route is the reason why the 724 is so unreliable, accumulating delays up to 30 minutes. The 724 doesn't appear to have the best practice of rostering drivers, if anything the in-break-out arrangement you describe further supports a 724 split. It doesn't ensure the driver stays around a centralised point to have a break, for as one could easily work St Albans-Heathrow-St Albans or Harlow-St Albans-Harlow in the same space of time it takes to drive one way and still have some padding to make up reliability.

As for "too many useful links it provides," my observations from both trips indicate that passengers travel from one large town to another, or from the little villages/suburbs into the local town centre, so is there really a lot of people traversing across Hertfordshire to get to a shop in Watford? Unless someone from inside Arriva publish passenger statistics that prove otherwise, I doubt it. Even then, those links would work fine under a split arrangement, provided there is enough time for passengers to change buses at St Albans. The 724 is long overdue for reshaping.
 

greenline712

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Route 724 has been worked by Harlow (and before that Ware) for many many years . . . Hertford and St Albans were never involved. The confusion may stem from that, in early deregulation days, the route temporarily disappeared and was replaced by Route 524 from Watford to Harlow and Stansted Airport, and Route 733 from Hitchin to Welwyn GC and on to Heathrow.

I don't doubt the veracity of the picture of RMH869Y, but I'm pretty sure that 724 wasn't operated from St Albans or Hatfield . . . one of life's mysteries!

Concerning the current operation of Route 724 . . . whilst some of the night duties may have breaks at Heathrow, the day duties normally work Harlow-Heathrow-Watford (break) Watford-Harlow. This is a relic of the time when Garston garage was open . . . a HA driver would bring a ferry car across to start a full sequence of breaks; the last duty would take relief at GR and then drive the ferry car back in the late evening. The alternative would be a driver based at Heathrow starting the sequence of reliefs off . . . most workings only have 38 minutes at Heathrow, which is insufficient time for the relief Agreement (minimum 40 minutes).
 

RELL6L

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Route 724 has been worked by Harlow (and before that Ware) for many many years . . . Hertford and St Albans were never involved. The confusion may stem from that, in early deregulation days, the route temporarily disappeared and was replaced by Route 524 from Watford to Harlow and Stansted Airport, and Route 733 from Hitchin to Welwyn GC and on to Heathrow.

I don't doubt the veracity of the picture of RMH869Y, but I'm pretty sure that 724 wasn't operated from St Albans or Hatfield . . . one of life's mysteries!

Concerning the current operation of Route 724 . . . whilst some of the night duties may have breaks at Heathrow, the day duties normally work Harlow-Heathrow-Watford (break) Watford-Harlow. This is a relic of the time when Garston garage was open . . . a HA driver would bring a ferry car across to start a full sequence of breaks; the last duty would take relief at GR and then drive the ferry car back in the late evening. The alternative would be a driver based at Heathrow starting the sequence of reliefs off . . . most workings only have 38 minutes at Heathrow, which is insufficient time for the relief Agreement (minimum 40 minutes).

That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. Watford isn’t the easiest place to get into and out of especially if the first relief is at 8.35. Some Harlow to Heathrow to Watford runs are very close to 5 and a half hours. Would have thought somewhere like Uxbridge would have been easier, especially as there’s a bus garage next door.
 

A0wen

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Route 724 has been worked by Harlow (and before that Ware) for many many years . . . Hertford and St Albans were never involved. The confusion may stem from that, in early deregulation days, the route temporarily disappeared and was replaced by Route 524 from Watford to Harlow and Stansted Airport, and Route 733 from Hitchin to Welwyn GC and on to Heathrow.

I don't doubt the veracity of the picture of RMH869Y, but I'm pretty sure that 724 wasn't operated from St Albans or Hatfield . . . one of life's mysteries!

Concerning the current operation of Route 724 . . . whilst some of the night duties may have breaks at Heathrow, the day duties normally work Harlow-Heathrow-Watford (break) Watford-Harlow. This is a relic of the time when Garston garage was open . . . a HA driver would bring a ferry car across to start a full sequence of breaks; the last duty would take relief at GR and then drive the ferry car back in the late evening. The alternative would be a driver based at Heathrow starting the sequence of reliefs off . . . most workings only have 38 minutes at Heathrow, which is insufficient time for the relief Agreement (minimum 40 minutes).

The 733 was introduced pre deregulation. It replaced the Hitchin - London 732 and ran Hitchin - Reading as a joint operation with Alder Valley.

It was subsequently curtailed to Heathrow and at deregulation wasn't registered as commercial by London Country and passed to Armchair of Brentford.

Photos below of an Alder Valley coach at Hitchin in 1983 https://flickr.com/photos/9003948@N05/52674602329/in/photolist-2ofF77M-oxKggp and an Armchair coach at Stevenage in 1987 https://flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
 

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