Arriva national fleet number idea

[pm2304877]

Having read a post about Arriva's confusing and chaotic fleet numbering schemes for different regions I m amazed they never adopted a 5 digit series alongside First and Stagecoach in 2004.
My scheme is evolving according to fleet changes. Here goes.

SINGLE DECK

10xxx Coaches (only 15 currently)
11xxx Mostly Optare Solos but 119xx are MB Sprinters.

12xxx ADL E200 short.

13xxx ADL E200 long with 139xx being E300

14xxx VDL SB200, Pulsars , 146xx Commanders and SB180s, 147xx SB120

15xxx Optare Versa but Tempos 15001-5.
159xx Temsa Avenue

16000-499 Volvo B7 as and B8 SD.
16500-899 Scania SD
169xx MB Citaro
17xxx Wrightbus Streetlite DF, with 17500 up being WF.
18000-19999 Vacant.
20xxx to be allocated to "eco" or electric single decks but Arriva has few such vehicles currently.


DOUBLE DECKERS

30xxx VDL DAF DB300 with 307xx allocated to DB250s.

31xxx Wrightbus Streetdeck diesel

32xxx ADL E40D

33xxx ADL E40D MMC
34xxx Vacant
35xxx ADL E40H with 35500 up BYD
35900 up ADL.E400 FCEV

36xxx Volvo B5LH

37000-39999 future eco double decks .

London buses are included but not the LT class and the token AEC Route master.
Of course if Arriva is sold or split this whole exercise will be a waste!

Having read a post about Arriva's confusing and chaotic fleet numbering schemes for different regions I m amazed they never adopted a 5 digit series alongside First and Stagecoach in 2004.
My scheme is evolving according to fleet changes. Here goes.

SINGLE DECK

10xxx Coaches (only 15 currently)
11xxx Mostly Optare Solos but 119xx are MB Sprinters.

12xxx ADL E200 short.

13xxx ADL E200 long with 139xx being E300

14xxx VDL SB200, Pulsars , 146xx Commanders and SB180s, 147xx SB120

15xxx Optare Versa but Tempos 15001-5.
159xx Temsa Avenue

16000-499 Volvo B7 as and B8 SD.
16500-899 Scania SD
169xx MB Citaro
17xxx Wrightbus Streetlite DF, with 17500 up being WF.
18000-19999 Vacant.
20xxx to be allocated to "eco" or electric single decks but Arriva has few such vehicles currently.

I will post my DOUBLE DECK numbers shortly.


DOUBLE DECKERS

30xxx VDL DAF DB300 with 307xx allocated to DB250s.

31xxx Wrightbus Streetdeck diesel

32xxx ADL E40D

33xxx ADL E40D MMC
34xxx Vacant
35xxx ADL E40H with 35500 up BYD
35900 up ADL.E400 FCEV

36xxx Volvo B5LH

37000-39999 future eco double decks .

London buses are included but not the LT class and the token AEC Route master.
Of course if Arriva is sold or split this whole exercise will be a waste!

37000 up are to be Wrightbus Electroliners.

 

[Russel]

What about Volvo B9TL Geminis?

 

[pm2304877]

What about Volvo B9TL Geminis?

An error which I will now.
correct
On my notes I decided that 31xxx to be split as follows:

31xxx Volvo B9TL

314xx Volvo B7TL

31500-31999 Wrightbus Streetdeck diesel.
Apologies I hope this corrects matters.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Having read a post about Arriva's confusing and chaotic fleet numbering schemes for different regions

Confusing and chaotic for who?

 

[pm2304877]

Confusing and chaotic for who?

The poster in the Arriva /Greenline thread who suggested a national fleet number scheme. In the NW region we have minibuses in the double deck 47xx range and ADL E400 MMCs in the 10xx series alongside MB Sprinters. There would be no need to renumber buses transferred to other Arriva regions .

Anyone remember Stagecoach pre 2004? Absolute chaos!

 

[M803UYA]

The poster in the Arriva /Greenline thread who suggested a national fleet number scheme. In the NW region we have minibuses in the double deck 47xx range and ADL E400 MMCs in the 10xx series alongside MB Sprinters. There would be no need to renumber buses transferred to other Arriva regions .

Anyone remember Stagecoach pre 2004? Absolute chaos!

Doesn't really answer the question. Chaotic and confusing for who?

I often think enthusiasts forget the object of running buses - it's not to entertain the enthusiast community, it's to make money and provide a service for people to use.

It does provide unending entertainment for the enthusiast, but that's incidental to it's prime function!

 

[David 90825]

Arriva Scotland West adopted a 5-digit fleetnumber system circa 2011. Dennis Darts were renumbered into the 44xxx series with Wright bodied Volvo B6BLE single-deckers renumbered into the 45xxx series. Some of these vehicles transferred to Arriva North East/Northumbria in early 2012 when McGills purchased the Arriva Scotland West operations. I believe they retained their 5-digit fleetnumbers but were not used in service. I do not know why the 5-digit system was introduced at Arriva Scotland West nor do I know why the system was not introduced nationwide.

 

[Statto]

Doesn't really answer the question. Chaotic and confusing for who?

I often think enthusiasts forget the object of running buses - it's not to entertain the enthusiast community, it's to make money and provide a service for people to use.

It does provide unending entertainment for the enthusiast, but that's incidental to it's prime function!

Agreed, most passengers who use buses don't care, or are confused, what the bus fleet number is, as long as the bus turns up on the route they want to use.

Feels the type of thread, lets see an issue when their isn't one & renumber things for the sake of renumbering things.

 

[Russel]

Confusing and chaotic for who?

Arriva themselves, presumably.

My closest Arriva depot hat to renumber a batch of Scania Omnilinks around 10 years ago because they clashed with something else the Midlands fleet was about to gain if I remember correctly.

 

[pm2304877]

Doesn't really answer the question. Chaotic and confusing for who?

I often think enthusiasts forget the object of running buses - it's not to entertain the enthusiast community, it's to make money and provide a service for people to use.

It does provide unending entertainment for the enthusiast, but that's incidental to it's prime function!

Its only an interest. My scheme was inspired by the Stagecoach scheme which allocated two digit codes to types of vehicle.
I count up from a given fleet list and allocate accordingly.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva themselves, presumably.

I'm sure if it were a major problem, they'd sort it but it isn't.

Agreed, most passengers who use buses don't care, or are confused, what the bus fleet number is, as long as the bus turns up on the route they want to use.

Feels the type of thread, lets see an issue when their isn't one & renumber things for the sake of renumbering things.

Exactly

 

[pm2304877]

Its only an interest My scheme was inspired by the Stagecoach scheme which allocated two digit codes to types of vehicle.
I count up from a given fleet list and allocate llaccordingly.àààààààà

Fie

Its only an interest My scheme was inspired by the Stagecoach scheme which allocated two digit codes to types of vehicle.
I count up from a given fleet list and allocate llaccordingly.àààààààà

Bus enthusiasts should have the right to express an opinion be it about fleet numbers, route numbers, liveries, seating arrangements interior decor etc. Buses have chassis and body numbers do we ignore those as well?

Thank goodness the late Ian Allan ignored such negativity when he produced his early ABC( who wants to buy a book full of numbers? Quote from a station book shop owner).

If you have contempt for bus and rail enthusiasts look to a different interest site. A passenger who doesn't give a toss about fleet numbers won't notice any change so what's the problem.
If I don't like a topic I IGNORE it and scroll on.

 

[Russel]

I'm sure if it were a major problem, they'd sort it but it isn't.

Arriva have had major problems with most aspects of their UK bus business for several years, I don't think they are capable or sorting anything.

 

[Typhoon]

I'm sure if it were a major problem, they'd sort it but it isn't.

What might be a problem is that current Arriva staff would find that the number system which they are currently familiar with is replaced by something totally different so for several weeks, perhaps months, they will be on a learning curve. They probably currently know the number of any buses at their garage are temperamental or problematic. It doesn't matter a jot if a vehicle in, say, Yorkshire or North Wales has the same fleet number if you are in based in a Hertfordshire garage. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand how many journeys I have taken on the vehicles of my nearest Arriva subsidy (Kent and ?) in the last year, probably similar number the year before but I still have a rough idea of what type of vehicle it is (there are some interlopers in the 4000s otherwise a sensible pattern). Those who work on the ground will know much more than that, they will know the type, some idea of capacity, probably limitations regarding which routes it can't be used on from the current number; their job is difficult enough as it is without giving them the burden of having to familiarise themselves with a new numbering system, especially as some people find numbers difficult in the first place as, unlike letters in words. a sequence of digits does not obviously make sense.

If it is really really necessary to have a national scheme, let each subsidiary keep their own scheme and bung a letter on the end to denote the subsidiary they are part of - only to be used by the company nationally, in that way the company will have a unique identifier for each vehicle and individual garages and subsidiaries can continue on as before.

 

[Russel]

If Arrivas numbering scheme is as problem free as this the responses in this thread, why did both First and Stagecoach switch to using 5 digit fleet numbers?

 

[MasterSpenny]

If Arrivas numbering scheme is as problem free as this the responses in this thread, why did both First and Stagecoach switch to using 5 digit fleet numbers?

Probably for an extended range of available numbers for various vehicles

 

[pm2304877]

What might be a problem is that current Arriva staff would find that the number system which they are currently familiar with is replaced by something totally different so for several weeks, perhaps months, they will be on a learning curve. They probably currently know the number of any buses at their garage are temperamental or problematic. It doesn't matter a jot if a vehicle in, say, Yorkshire or North Wales has the same fleet number if you are in based in a Hertfordshire garage. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand how many journeys I have taken on the vehicles of my nearest Arriva subsidy (Kent and ?) in the last year, probably similar number the year before but I still have a rough idea of what type of vehicle it is (there are some interlopers in the 4000s otherwise a sensible pattern). Those who work on the ground will know much more than that, they will know the type, some idea of capacity, probably limitations regarding which routes it can't be used on from the current number; their job is difficult enough as it is without giving them the burden of having to familiarise themselves with a new numbering system, especially as some people find numbers difficult in the first place as, unlike letters in words. a sequence of digits does not obviously make sense.

If it is really really necessary to have a national scheme, let each subsidiary keep their own scheme and bung a letter on the end to denote the subsidiary they are part of - only to be used by the company nationally, in that way the company will have a unique identifier for each vehicle and individual garages and subsidiaries can continue on as before..

Vehicles which are transferred are renumbered. A national scheme would obviate the need and will save money in the long run.

 

[M803UYA]

Vehicles which are transferred are renumbered a national scheme would obviate the need and will save money in the long run.

I don't see how. The cost of these vinyls is fairly small. Given the annual turnover of their operations it wouldn't even amount to one day's revenue!

 

[Stan Drews]

If Arrivas numbering scheme is as problem free as this the responses in this thread, why did both First and Stagecoach switch to using 5 digit fleet numbers?

Stagecoach were the first to adopt this approach in the early 00s, and it was primarily down to the centralisation of many back office systems across UK Bus, along with the increasing use of software to replace older paper based systems.
Thankfully it was devised by a manager that was also an enthusiast, so it also made sense by follow a class code system.

First followed a little later with a madcap scheme devised by a bean counter, which when compared to Stagecoach, made very little sense!

 

[Typhoon]

Vehicles which are transferred are renumbered. A national scheme would obviate the need and will save money in the long run.

But cause short term disruption at a time when I would have thought just now I would have thought Arriva had stacks more to worry about (I've been reading the Arriva thread).

 

[GCH100]

FirstGroup's numbering system came from software used by Volvo Bus & Coach and was to do with the increasing number of Volvo only depots where Volvo did fleet maintenance. Volvo Group use that software, and where a vehicle is removed the idea is that another vehicle would take its place in any old order.

However it became unmanageable for FirstGroup as eventually you would have ended up with fleets of buses numbered all over the place so with later fleets they introduced the system of putting the batches in order. The other benefit from central fleet numbering was the ease of moving vehicles around the country without needing to re-number and follow the history of the batch.

Arriva simply didn't see the need to renumber, and at Go Ahead purchases of fleet were left to local managers and often stay within those fleets, bar stock from London which gets cascaded.

 

[pm2304877]

First was first with their Sema Voyager scheme which was a bit of a mess for the first year or so but eventually they opted for a type based method but for some years two methods ruled until older buses were phased out . This scheme took a year or so to roll out .

Stagecoach got it right to begin with by counting the various types of bus and allocating numbers accordingly but has had to amend in order to accommodate eco/electric buses.

However all numbers should be recycled or they will run out as First are discovering.

My Arriva scheme has sufficient gaps to allow for hybrid/eco/electric buses, however the fleet size is declining and events could render it irrelevant in the event of takeover or break up. Qué Sera Sera.

 

[M803UYA]

First was first with their Sema Voyager scheme which was a bit of a mess for the first year or so but eventually they opted for a type based method but for some years two methods ruled until older buses were phased out . This scheme took a year or so to roll out .

Stagecoach got it right to begin with by counting the various types of bus and allocating numbers accordingly but has had to amend in order to accommodate eco/electric buses.

However all numbers should be recycled or they will run out as First are discovering.

My Arriva scheme has sufficient gaps to allow for hybrid/eco/electric buses, however the fleet size is declining and events could render it irrelevant in the event of takeover or break up. Qué Sera Sera.

I just don't see how it's a sensible use of management time, resources for what will be a negligible to non existent saving of money. Arriva has far more important things to address. Having buses in a consistent colour scheme for instance. Having buses which don't look like they've been retrieved from a scrap yard with sections of paint missing,worn off.
A shortage of driving staff. None of the above would be resolved by fleet numbering.

 

[geoffk]

If you want confusing, try Halifax Corporation/Joint Omnibus Committee in the Hilditch era....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I just don't see how it's a sensible use of management time, resources for what will be a negligible to non existent saving of money. Arriva has far more important things to address. Having buses in a consistent colour scheme for instance. Having buses which don't look like they've been retrieved from a scrap yard with sections of paint missing,worn off.
A shortage of driving staff. None of the above would be resolved by fleet numbering.

Absolutely this.

I'm not sure that there's much chaos and confusion in the Arriva fleet caused by numbering. A myriad of other things are much more important as you say.

 

[duncombec]

The OP is right that it's not wrong to have an opinion, but the question is ultimately whether it is "needed", as implied, and indeed how "chaotic and confusing" it really is. If you consider a fleet numbering system as nothing more than an asset number, or a registration number of a different sort, then there really is no need for a "system".

Arriva Southern Counties' system is based on that inherited from Maidstone and District, and the same is largely true of other group companies - they've just taken what came before. Taking four local independents, by contrast, one uses a simple system incrementing from the first vehicle they owned (now up to about 114), another uses vehicle capacity as a base (except for vehicles on long-term lease), a third uses whichever number they had with the previous operator, with class codes for 'deckers but not for singles, and a fourth uses the last three letters of the registration number. It works for them, and they use it well. Presumably the same is true for Arriva companies - and as has been said, vinyl costs pennies.

In similar vein, why does Rotala have five-digit numbers when it could easily have a nationwide system with three or four, and why does Go-Ahead not have one at all? At least one forum member may smile wryly if I call it a 'solution looking for a problem'.

The OP is of course welcome to suggest a scheme, but it is just an exercise for one's own pleasure/amusement: should any scheme ever be introduced, it is unlikely to match any such suggestion. Of course, were this to be a true Arriva Bus-wide system, until such time as the entities are sold, it could arguably also include buses in the Czech Republic, Croatia, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland*, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain. If a UK wide system is "needed", why not a Europe-wide system, to make inter-country moves easier there? Have fun!

*The Poland bus business has been sold, but the "country" page of the corporate website still lists 295 buses, even though Denmark and Serbia, sold at the same time, have been removed.

 

[pm2304877]

Fleet numbering is one aspect of bus operation. Registration numbers are too long to use as an identifier and the current method is useless. Imagine Lancaster City Transport using three letters to match the reg., or East Kent. A reg with a block of numbers might work e.g PFN 850-899, but GQ73 AAA to ACZ with gaps? No way José!
Thank goodness there was no social media around in 1948 when British Railways started their 5-digit scheme.( Who wants to buy this chap Ian Allan's ABC book full of bloody numbers? It'll never catch on!)

I've had a Eureka moment. Replace bus and train numbers with QR codes applied on the sides of the vehicles. That'll contain all the info needed by pesky enthusiasts and other peasants who dare to be interested in public transport. The codes could replace route number blinds as well. Why didn't I think of this earlier?

 

[GusB]

I think we've reached a stalemate here, and we'll draw the thread to a close. Thanks for your contributions, folks