Ashford Intl to Faversham: Dover Priory permitted?

[district]

Hey guys,

I'm travelling Saturday 17th September on a 16-25 railcard. I want a day return between Ashford International (AFK) and Faversham (FAV).

What would be the best route to take? Avantix only shows via Selling which isn't what I want since I don't want to walk between the Canterbury stations.

I was thinking AFK-Dover Priory (DVP)-FAV.

a) Is it possible to get a Any Permitted ticket, valid on this journey?
b) Can I break my journey at any of the intermediate stations?
c) What is the cheapest fare possible? I'm a 16-25 railcard holder.

Thanks guys

 

[Intermodal]

I was wrong!

 

[John @ home]

The East Coast site offers tickets for Ashford Intl - Faversham with a change at Dover Priory. For example, tomorrow:

0530 Ashford Intl - 0601 Dover Priory 0619 - 0700 Faversham
0602 Ashford Intl - 0633 Dover Priory 0639 - 0720 Faversham

 

[Bungle73]

Hey guys,

I'm travelling Saturday 17th September on a 16-25 railcard. I want a day return between Ashford International (AFK) and Faversham (FAV).

What would be the best route to take? Avantix only shows via Selling which isn't what I want since I don't want to walk between the Maidstone stations.

I was thinking AFK-Dover Priory (DVP)-FAV.

a) Is it possible to get a Any Permitted ticket, valid on this journey?
b) Can I break my journey at any of the intermediate stations?
c) What is the cheapest fare possible? I'm a 16-25 railcard holder.

Thanks guys

Why would you need to go to Maidstone? Train to Canterbury West. Walk from there to Canterbuy East (10-15 min walk). Then train to Faversham (one or two stops).

 

[Intermodal]

Is that a possible anomaly in the interpretation of the routeing guide they have then? I can see how this anomaly could arise but in my opinion that route is not valid! I would obtain reservations for any journey made and book online.

 

[Bungle73]

Is that a possible anomaly in the interpretation of the routeing guide they have then? I can see how this anomaly could arise but in my opinion that route is not valid! I would obtain reservations for any journey made and book online.

Southeastern don't do reservations.

 

[Intermodal]

Why would you need to go to Maidstone? Train to Canterbury West. Walk from there to Canterbuy East (10-15 min walk). Then train to Faversham (one or two stops).

I don't think this is a permitted route either - it isn't on the maps as being allowed on the Dover to Faversham line.

Edit: see below - it's the shortest route and I'm silly

 

[Bungle73]

I don't think this is a permitted route either - it isn't on the maps as being allowed on the Dover to Faversham line.

It must be permitted. It's the only logical way of doing that route, other than going via Dover.

 

[Intermodal]

It must be permitted. It's the only logical way of doing that route, other than going via Dover.

It may actually be permitted as the shortest route - my mistake - assuming that walking between Canterbury stations is an official interchange (which it must be).

 

[MikeWh]

It may actually be permitted as the shortest route - my mistake - assuming that walking between Canterbury stations is an official interchange (which it must be).

Yes, walking between the Canterbury stations is valid, and the distance can be treated as zero in terms of calculating the shortest route. However, that absolutely has to be the shortest route.

 

[district]

Sorry I meant Canterbury Stations.

So I'm going to have to make the walk?

 

[John @ home]

So I'm going to have to make the walk?

Give us a chance to explore in more detail why some of the journey planners are showing journey opportunities via Dover.

 

[district]

Thanks all guys. If I get my internet any time soon I will check the guide myself!

 

[MikeWh]

So I'm going to have to make the walk?

You can go via Ramsgate according to the routeing guide.

 

[Intermodal]

As I said, you can go via Ramsgate as this avoids the walk, but will take longer.

Edit: No you can't - I misread the tickets - there were no Any Permitted tickets available.

 

[Bungle73]

Ramsgate? Why travel all the way to there? If you want to avoid walking between stations just catch a train to Dover, then one from there to Faversham.

 

[Intermodal]

Ramsgate? Why travel all the way to there? If you want to avoid walking between stations just catch a train to Dover, then one from there to Faversham.

Except it's not a permitted route. You'd need to buy online and print out an East Coast travel document to make it "safe" to use.

Edit: See below, may be the shortest route. Sorry for the dodgy advice.

 

[OwlMan]

You can go via Ramsgate according to the routeing guide.

Not from Ashford International. You can go via the Ashford to Ramsgate line, and then on from Ramsgate to Faversham, but you cannot go via Dover.

There is not an any permitted ticket available; only "Route Selling" & "Route Ebbsfleet+HS1notlondon". Neither are valid via Ramsgate.
Peter

 

[Intermodal]

There is not an any permitted ticket available; only "Route Selling" & "Route Ebbsfleet+HS1notlondon". Neither are valid via Ramsgate.
Peter

Ah - I misread Avantix. I'm an idiot! I've edited my posts accordingly. At least I wasn't the only one!

 

[OwlMan]

Give us a chance to explore in more detail why some of the journey planners are showing journey opportunities via Dover.

I assume it is because of the "Route Selling". Is this intended to include a walk between Canterbury East & West?. If not it is a non-mapped route and would be valid via Dover.

Peter

 

[Mutant Lemming]

http://www.challock.org.uk/timetable.htm

Quicker and probably cheaper as well

 

[John @ home]

I assume it is because of the "Route Selling". Is this intended to include a walk between Canterbury East & West?. If not it is a non-mapped route and would be valid via Dover.

The shortest route wholly by rail is

Ashford International, Herringe Crossover, Westenhanger, Sandling, Saltwood Junction, Continental Junction, Folkestone West, Folkestone Central, Folkestone East, Archcliffe Junction, Hawkesbury Street Junction, Dover Priory, Buckland Junction, Kearsney, Shepherds Well, Snowdown, Aylesham, Adisham, Bekesbourne, Canterbury East, Selling, Faversham.

47 miles 01 chains

http://mileage.railmiles.org

In the absence of any definition of when one must use an interchange between stations, I believe the journey planner is correct to regard this as a Permitted Route.

 

[extendedpaul]

I used to travel regularly between Faversham and Ashford. Always went via Selling, Canterbury East and Dover Priory which is definitely the accepted route.

Incidentally bus service 666 does the journey direct in about 45 minutes.

 

[Intermodal]

Okay - I think you've got your answer then - you can go via Dover. Sorry for some misleading advice but it wasn't the most straightforward question ever!

I am still interested in how a shortest route is calculated if you can have a shorter one by walking between stations though. Does anyone have the answer to that?

 

[John @ home]

can the shortest route be regarded as being one where you have to walk between stations?

Yes, but the only such route which ATOC has quoted makes it very clear that one must walk (or travel by any means other than the particular railway ticket) between statons.

Clive D.W. Feather to ATOC
31 July 1998

Question 9: can a journey involve a walk between stations?
For example, map WA includes both Hertford East and Hertford North, on different lines. Would it be legitimate to travel from Cambridge to London via Stevenage, Hertford North, Hertford East, and then Broxbourne? Or, for that matter, via Stansted Airport, Broxbourne, Hertford East, Hertford North, Stevenage, and then Welwyn? Does it matter if the stations involved are in the same group or not?
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn1.html

ATOC to Clive D.W. Feather
25 September 1998

Question 9: can a journey involve a walk between stations?
Some journeys must involve a walk between stations; for example, the fare from Watford Junction to Harpenden is routed "St Albans Abbey" - this must involve a walk between St Albans Abbey and St Albans. As regards permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations (one is not breaking the "no doubling back" rule by doing this).
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/routeqn2.html

If it can be regarded as that - then Dover is not valid.

I don't agree. In the Watford Junction - Harpenden route St Albans Abbey example, a "walk" between St Albans Abbey and St Albans is the only way it's physically possible to go by rail from Watford Junction to Harpenden via St Albans Abbey without doubling back. This is not so with a Ashford Intl - Faversham route Selling ticket. The shortest route by rail is via Selling by the route in post #22. And the first page of the National Routeing Guide - Instructions tells us that "Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route."

ATOC's letter of 25 September 1998 makes it clear that there is nothing to prevent a customer using a route that involves a walk between stations. Ashford Intl - Faversham via Canterbury West and Canterbury East would be such a route. It also passes through Selling, making a Ashford Intl - Faversham route Selling ticket valid by that route in addition to the shortest route wholly by rail.

 

[Intermodal]

Thanks for the explanation - really appreciate it.

Once again I'm sorry for some of the bad advice I've given in this thread! I'm not familiar with the area and I've never seen a circumstance where the shortest route isn't a mapped route. I was just trying to help but I clearly should've kept my nose out. I'm learning all the time though and won't give such advice again!

 

[John @ home]

I'm sorry for some of the bad advice I've given in this thread!

Don't worry about it. It's really good that you've edited your posts, so that someone new to the thread can find the answer quickly.

I've never seen a circumstance where the shortest route isn't a mapped route.

It's relatively rare but not unique. One that comes to mind is Stockport - Guide Bridge, where the direct route via Denton does not appear on any map. But there is just one train a week in one direction only.

I'm learning all the time though

We are all learning all the time, and we all make mistakes.