ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

[TreacleMiller]

I'm not a member of ASLEF..

Yes. We can very much tell.

Your refusal to stop banging the "Ballot the deal drum" is now nonsensical.

When you sell your house, would you expect your estate agent to telephone you and ask for a formal response on an offer of 25% of your homes value? Or if I offered £5 and a packet of crisps?

There is an agreed process within Aslef that members support.

There is zero benefit to members, Aslef or the public to ballot on the deal. The executive rejected it, on behalf of and with the support of the membership.

If the membership did not support the unions decision, we would have not voted to continue strike action.

That position isn't going to change. The offer isn't on the table, Aslef rejected it. The DfT were told what would allow for a revision of the unions stance and haven't done a thing to work towards it.

In my view it's clear that the government has no interest in ending the strike. I suspect that may be because they believe it suits their political base and may ring out a few more votes from the faithful at an election, rather than voting lib dem.

Will Labour shower the union membership in cash? No. I suspect we will be looking at a poor % rise regardless of who is in charge.

 

[43066]

I know drivers who are quite happy to do similar in extremis (you'll quite often see at Lincoln for example spare drivers out on the platform around the gates, a lot of their drivers are former guards and perfectly able to manage passengers) and I also know drivers who are best kept away from agitated and delayed members of the public because they don't have the social skills to deal with them.

I’ve helped old ladies lift luggage onto the train before, but wouldn’t if I’m honest want to be stood at a gateline (obviously if others are bored they might want to, although I can’t say it really happens at my depot). I wouldn’t have a clue about whether tickets were valid, and I don’t really have the temperament for the “customer service” bit, so I’m not sure what value I’d add. It’s rare for us to be sitting around spare, in any case.

This sort of thing generally only ever comes up in the context of drivers who are off track, so unproductive anyway, and overzealous management trying to “find something for them to do”.

Your last sentence is 100% accurate!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Meanwhile, the public just work around any strike action, it's almost normal now, with zero sympathy for a group of workers, who may be essential, but are paid more, often much more with archaic working practices, than many of the public they inconvenience. A well paid job that you need no degree either. They also can't be bothered with getting upset with an irrelevant government who will be kicked out soon. Two 'organisations' who deserve each other.

Care to enlighten us as to these ‘archaic working practices’?

 

[43066]

Merseyrail used to have guards passed for driving whilst they waited for space in the driving links who could do either job. Not sure if that is continuing with the new trains.

I can sort of see how that would make sense for qualified guards, albeit only for that initial period while they await placement in a link, albeit I’ve not heard of it happening at our place.

Wouldn’t guards usually find their competency expired during their driver training course, in any case?

 

[Scotty]

Wembley Stadium (via the National League football competition) have announced that ASLEF are striking on May 4th. Is this common knowledge?

 

[Ianigsy]

Tube strike- they’ve swapped the day with the National League North promotion final, which happens at a club ground so there shouldn’t be any need for anybody to go anywhere near London.

 

[Krokodil]

Merseyrail used to have guards passed for driving whilst they waited for space in the driving links who could do either job. Not sure if that is continuing with the new trains.

Is that a relic from the Trainman D/Trainman G concept?

 

[manmikey]

Meanwhile, the public just work around any strike action, it's almost normal now, with zero sympathy for a group of workers, who may be essential, but are paid more, often much more with archaic working practices, than many of the public they inconvenience. A well paid job that you need no degree either. They also can't be bothered with getting upset with an irrelevant government who will be kicked out soon. Two 'organisations' who deserve each other.

Please expand on the "Archaic working practices" that concern you, perhaps we can explain the whys and wherefores of these practices or dismiss them as not based on facts.

 

[LowLevel]

Is that a relic from the Trainman D/Trainman G concept?

Merseyrail is/was the only operator where guard and driver are in the same line of promotion. I believe the London Underground used to work the same way on some lines.

I suppose on a nearly self contained metro network it made sense to encourage internal promotion.

 

[12LDA28C]

I used to get on a train at my station, drive it to the end of the line, drive it back, have a break, and then drive it somewhere else and back. Now I travel somewhere, drive it a bit, travel somewhere else, drive somewhere else etc. Or I get removed from a whole productive round trip (of around 4 hours) to put a train on the depot (3 minutes driving) or even do an attachment because they can taxi a driver from 100 miles further down the line to my station to cover my round trip but have nobody else to go to the depot or who signs attaching. I would say I probably do about 60% of the driving that I did 10 years ago.

How on earth can you sign a particular type of traction but don't sign attaching? That's just insane.

 

[ComUtoR]

How on earth can you sign a particular type of traction but don't sign attaching? That's just insane.

It would depend on how each TOC breaks down its CMS (competency management system) If you can 'sign' to say you are competent to drive but due to specific traction 'peculiarities' you were never expected to 'couple' then I can see why its very much possible.

 

[43066]

How on earth can you sign a particular type of traction but don't sign attaching? That's just insane.

Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line are both likely in that boat - they would only attach when assisting.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

How on earth can you sign a particular type of traction but don't sign attaching? That's just insane.

Because the company who supply our trains have so few of them available that it isn’t possible to train drivers on how to attach and detach during the training course, as there are no spare sets. I would estimate 30% of the drivers at my company can attach and detach the main traction that we drive, despite the fact it happens multiple times at multiple locations throughout the day.

 

[12LDA28C]

Because the company who supply our trains have so few of them available that it isn’t possible to train drivers on how to attach and detach during the training course, as there are no spare sets. I would estimate 30% of the drivers at my company can attach and detach the main traction that we drive, despite the fact it happens multiple times at multiple locations throughout the day.

Fair enough. It seems crazy that two units can't be found at a location where training can be carried out in order to enable drivers to be competent in attaching and detaching. That would appear to be a most basic of requirements when signing a type of traction. So potentially if a failed train is required to be assisted, even if the train behind is of the same type and theoretically able to assist, the driver may not know how to couple.

 

[43066]

Tube strike- they’ve swapped the day with the National League North promotion final, which happens at a club ground so there shouldn’t be any need for anybody to go anywhere near London.

The ten million people who live here might beg to differ.

 

[Ashfordian6]

I listed some ways in which productivity could be increased in post #461 in direct response to your question. Also, the percentage of time a driver is actually driving a train would vary considerably between operators.

I understood your original response. However let me give you this scenario:

You drive a train from London to a remote terminal station which takes you 1h 56m, where because of the timetable you have a 34 minute turnaround. Unless I am missing something there is no way to make this driver more efficient, or is there?

In the above example, the driver time can only be 70% utilised, although a return trip would push that up to almost 85% utilised.

 

[12LDA28C]

I understood your original response. However let me give you this scenario:

You drive a train from London to a remote terminal station which takes you 1h 56m, where because of the timetable you have a 34 minute turnaround. Unless I am missing something there is no way to make this driver more efficient, or is there?

In the above example, the driver time can only be 70% utilised, although a return trip would push that up to almost 85% utilised.

I'll put it another way. You drive a train from a commuter belt station into a London terminus and have a 40-minute wait before working your next train to another destination. That 40 minutes wait is not booked for an official break of any kind. You could be made more productive by driving your next train to a different destination after only 20 minutes' wait. And so on.

 

[Krokodil]

Fair enough. It seems crazy that two units can't be found at a location where training can be carried out in order to enable drivers to be competent in attaching and detaching. That would appear to be a most basic of requirements when signing a type of traction. So potentially if a failed train is required to be assisted, even if the train behind is of the same type and theoretically able to assist, the driver may not know how to couple.

Similar issues at TfW when the 197s were first introduced. If one had failed on the Conwy Valley then an instructor would have been needed to couple up.

 

[12LDA28C]

Similar issues at TfW when the 197s were first introduced. If one had failed on the Conwy Valley then an instructor would have been needed to couple up.

Incredible. Welcome to the modern railway.

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely there is a computer programme that has the requirements and has spat out the most efficient working for drivers?

Tracsis.

Some TOCs use it to generate crew diagrams.

 

[Facing Back]

Please expand on the "Archaic working practices" that concern you, perhaps we can explain the whys and wherefores of these practices or dismiss them as not based on facts.

As I understood some of the previous threads - it's possible that a TOC has newly qualified drivers who are not allowed to driver until an existing driver leaves so that they don't take away potential overtime from other drivers. So they are paid but sit around as emergency backup. If I have misunderstood then I'm more than happy to be corrected - but that would sound to me like an example of an archaic working practice.

 

[Horizon22]

How on earth can you sign a particular type of traction but don't sign attaching? That's just insane.

Lots of people lost competency during Covid and the re-training could never be arranged. Also as already mentioned, some drivers may have done it briefly once in training on fixed length units (e.g. 345s and 700s) and never done it since as it is highly out of course.

I understood your original response. However let me give you this scenario:

You drive a train from London to a remote terminal station which takes you 1h 56m, where because of the timetable you have a 34 minute turnaround. Unless I am missing something there is no way to make this driver more efficient, or is there?

In the above example, the driver time can only be 70% utilised, although a return trip would push that up to almost 85% utilised.

Sure, but then you have to consider the >100 other drivers involved as well on that day's work and the way the timetable works and other union agreements about time in cab, minimum breaks, driving hours etc.

Train planning for diagrams is highly complex work. And yes occasionally some weird utilisations come out but these can normally be worked at for each timetable iteration when identified by resource controllers and other planners. Often Sunday diagrams are less "efficient" due to engineering works and other timetable quirks.

 

[Ianigsy]

The ten million people who live here might beg to differ.

I’m fairly sure you realise that I meant anybody involved with the match. The nearest possible venue for the final is Brackley, roughly halfway between London and Birmingham.

 

[dk1]

As I understood some of the previous threads - it's possible that a TOC has newly qualified drivers who are not allowed to driver until an existing driver leaves so that they don't take away potential overtime from other drivers. So they are paid but sit around as emergency backup. If I have misunderstood then I'm more than happy to be corrected - but that would sound to me like an example of an archaic working practice.

No they don’t just sit around. They can only be used when all normal booking out procedures for the existing establishment of drivers have been exhausted. They would only be in that link a few weeks/months.

 

[FR510]

As I understood some of the previous threads - it's possible that a TOC has newly qualified drivers who are not allowed to driver until an existing driver leaves so that they don't take away potential overtime from other drivers. So they are paid but sit around as emergency backup. If I have misunderstood then I'm more than happy to be corrected - but that would sound to me like an example of an archaic working practice.

Well nothing like that happens at my TOC. We never have enough drivers for that sort of practice.

 

[dk1]

Well nothing like that happens at my TOC. We never have enough drivers for that sort of practice.

We are extremely well organised on that front here and where throughout the pandemic. Training stopped for less than 6 weeks.

 

[Seehof]

At Northern, where I worked, newly qualified drivers not in a link were given jobs all the time. At no time were they sitting around to give others overtime. I once did three York - Leeds returns via Harrogate having just qualified and not in a link!

 

[dk1]

At Northern, where I worked, newly qualified drivers not in a link were given jobs all the time. At no time were they sitting around to give others overtime. I once did three York - Leeds returns via Harrogate having just qualified and not in a link!

Depends on depot agreements/booking out procedures.

 

[kw12]

At Northern, where I worked, newly qualified drivers not in a link were given jobs all the time. At no time were they sitting around to give others overtime. I once did three York - Leeds returns via Harrogate having just qualified and not in a link!

Depends on depot agreements/booking out procedures.

Which is probably why the poster gave the practice at the other TOC/depot as an example of an archaic working practice still in use, at that TOC/depot.

The set of archaic working practices still in use will, of course, vary from TOC to TOC. For a specific TOC, the archaic working practices could include those working practices that, at that TOC, have remained unchanged since British Rail days even though they have been replaced or updated at (one or more of the) other TOCs.

 

[43066]

Which is probably why the poster gave the practice at the other TOC/depot as an example of an archaic working practice still in use, at that TOC/depot.

The set of archaic working practices still in use will, of course, vary from TOC to TOC. For a specific TOC, the archaic working practices could include those working practices that, at that TOC, have remained unchanged since British Rail days even though they have been replaced or updated at (one or more of the) other TOCs.

It isn’t “archaic” though, it’s just an arrangement that works (and not in the way that @Facing Back had understood). The original poster who brought up “archaic” working practices hasn’t actually been able to name any; likely because they’ve read some nonsense in the Daily Mail.

The biggest joke of all is that the “modernisation” the government wants (but won’t be getting!) involves bringing back floating spare weeks, which were common under BR and have been negotiated away to improve work life balance. So it seems they’re perfectly happy with BR style Ts and Cs when it suits them.