ASLEF strikes W/c 6th May

[Sam 76]

Exactly this, which makes these utterly pointless.

I get why the strikes are happening, but, we're at the point where it's obvious, and has been for 12 months, that nothing is going to change this side of a general election.

I think what’s telling is it’s not on the bank holiday itself and they seem to be the same time every month. If they believed it was working it would be more frequent

 

[Jericho]

As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The RDG and DfT are a bunch of dishonourable charlatans but it doesn't change the fact that no one cares about these strikes anymore and they are achieving nothing - people just shrug their shoulders and work around them. They are simply not going to re-open these negotiations until the risible offer is put to members (which rightly isn't going to happen). So the ASLEF EC either need to dramatically escalate the action which will obviously hit some members hard financially or wait until after the election. What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds.

 

[Halwynd]

Exactly this, which makes these utterly pointless.

I get why the strikes are happening, but, we're at the point where it's obvious, and has been for 12 months, that nothing is going to change this side of a general election.

Surely ASLEF leadership must know this by now, and if so why are they hell-bent on causing all this disruption for normal folk who have no say in all of this? What is that saying about doing the same thing over and over again and seeing the same result...

They should either announce an all-out strike and this will be sorted within a couple of weeks, or suspend action, stop making passengers lives difficult, and open negotiations with a new government before the end of the year.

 

[peteb]

I see Aslef members at Avanti, Chiltern and WM trains will strike on Weds 8/5/2024. What is the likelihood of disruption on these operators on the preceding day, based on previous similar strikes? (I need to be in London by 1300hrs).

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Surely ASLEF leadership must know this by now, and if so why are they hell-bent on causing all this disruption for normal folk who have no say in all of this? What is that saying about doing the same thing over and over again and seeing the same result...

They should either announce an all-out strike and this will be sorted within a couple of weeks, or suspend action, stop making passengers lives difficult, and open negotiations with a new government before the end of the year.

They’re just trying to get it in the public’s consciousness, they know they have no chance of getting anything. The two sides haven’t even met for a year, despite both constantly saying they’re happy to meet each other. I don’t think an all out strike would achieve anything either, I just don’t think the government would care enough.

But I agree it’s utterly stupid at this point.

 

[winks]

They should either announce an all-out strike and this will be sorted within a couple of weeks, or suspend action, stop making passengers lives difficult, and open negotiations with a new government before the end of the year.

Couldn’t agree more with this. Aslef need to bite the bullet and go for a national strike to focus minds. But they won’t!

 

[Goldfish62]

Couldn’t agree more with this. Aslef need to bite the bullet and go for a national strike to focus minds. But they won’t!

They tried national strikes and they didn't work, which is why they're now trying different TOCs on different days, which of course also won't work.

 

[northwichcat]

Couldn’t agree more with this. Aslef need to bite the bullet and go for a national strike to focus minds. But they won’t!

Remember not all train operators are included in the dispute. If TfW Rail and Merseyrail were the only operators operating in the North West, it would be hell for some TfW Rail crews as everyone crams on 2 and 3 carriage trains.

 

[nanstallon]

I wouldn't be surprised the week after Labour gets into Government or shortly afterwards that a no strings deal is settled.

That reminds me of the miners' strike in 1974. The incoming Labour government gave the miners all they wanted, and look what happened to inflation!

I despise the present Tory government, but they are not wrong about everything. The railways are massively subsidised by the taxpayer (this has increased massively under the botched privatisation), and there may not be a huge amount of public sympathy for people already being paid £60K or so a year. There is no such thing as a job for life these days.

 

[Halwynd]

They’re just trying to get it in the public’s consciousness, they know they have no chance of getting anything. The two sides haven’t even met for a year, despite both constantly saying they’re happy to meet each other. I don’t think an all out strike would achieve anything either, I just don’t think the government would care enough.

But I agree it’s utterly stupid at this point.

Appreciate that, but I just don't understand the point of maintaining public awareness? Joe Public can't do or change anything and the people who can aren't interested.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That reminds me of the miners' strike in 1974. The incoming Labour government gave the miners all they wanted, and look what happened to inflation!

I despise the present Tory government, but they are not wrong about everything. The railways are massively subsidised by the taxpayer (this has increased massively under the botched privatisation), and there may not be a huge amount of public sympathy for people already being paid £60K or so a year. There is no such thing as a job for life these days.

Labour wont be repeating that mistake if anything i suspect the only thing that will be an offer is an appeal to the union to accept a modestly improved offer in the spirit of making Labours life a bit easier.

 

[Silverlinky]

As the overtime ban includes the Bank Holiday Monday, what will happen on those TOC's for whom a pay enhancement is made for BH working? I think at our TOC drivers have the choice of whether to take/earn a lieu day or get depot average on top of their hours for the day. Will the only option be the lieu day this time?

 

[NEDdrv]

Labour wont be repeating that mistake if anything i suspect the only thing that will be an offer is an appeal to the union to accept a modestly improved offer in the spirit of making Labours life a bit easier.

As has been said many times that’s all it would take along with t&c’s left alone with talks at company level to agree any changes.

 

[irish_rail]

An incoming Labour government should be aiming to prioritise NHS pay and conditions, along with others including care workers, teachers and prison/probation officers - and we don't know where the money will come from for those, so train drivers will I'm afraid be some way down the list. At least my trips to and from London on 14th and 22nd May should now be OK so I can go ahead and book tickets, but that's a rather selfish POV which doesn't help those wanting to travel over the BH period!

All of those proffessions have seen above inflation payrises in past 5 years. In some cases as high as 20 percent (NHS consultants last month). How can you possibly justify that train drivers, who are now five, yes five years without a single percent payrise are less deserving than the groups you mention?

 

[PLY2AYS]

Believing the chest thumping rhetoric from the Tory Party and their tame journalists about the MSL legislation was always unwise. Admittedly it's more toothless than even I anticipated but it's hardly surprising that it hasn't delivered what was promised.

The Government shot themselves in the foot with MSLs.
There’s no incentive for companies to use them. When the Government are paying the TOCs for loss of revenue, why would they attempt to run services when they just get the money for free on strike days? TOCs showing their true colours re: money. Government and RDG showing their consistent ineptitude.

Up the workers. See you on the picket lines!

 

[irish_rail]

Been clear for 18 month though. Nobody cares about these strikes and haven't done for a long time.

Then why is it everytime I mention I'm a train driver to someone I don't know the first thing they ask about is the industrial action? Despite what some on here think, this particular industrial action is very much in the public conciseness and if nothing else presents a feeling of the country being in chaos. This is why I can't really understand the Tory tactic of prolonging this as all its doing is harming the image of Britain, and causing upset for British citizens.

 

[whoosh]

There is no guarantee that an incoming Labour government - which will want to be seen to be financially prudent in the face of other financial demands and a dire government balance sheet - will meet ASLEF demands, at least not in full.

There's no guarantee, but the current government are promoting that train drivers are:
1. Greedy - even though they agreed a two year 0% pay rise for 2020 and 2021.
2. Do not want to 'modernise'.

Transport for Wales have shown that modernisation can be negotiated, and not for a huge sum. The railway can be grown and become more reliable. The current bunch are not wanting to go in that direction at all.

Scotland, Merseyside, London, Tyne & Wear - wherever another authority is in control, there have been proper negotiations. The hope is that a change in government will provide this.

If they had kept their powder dry until now and had gone to the RDG to ask for one, I can’t help but feel they would’ve been a lot more successful, and nobody would’ve lost any money. Just usual union bull in a china shop approach has cost them.

Not sure agreeing to 2020 and 2021 at 0% and then when 2022 comes around, being refused any talks because, "The DfT won't let us," despite many attempts at asking, is "bull in a China shop". If powder was still dry, we would still be in the same position I dare say.

As the overtime ban includes the Bank Holiday Monday, what will happen on those TOC's for whom a pay enhancement is made for BH working? I think at our TOC drivers have the choice of whether to take/earn a lieu day or get depot average on top of their hours for the day. Will the only option be the lieu day this time?

I would say: If it's not overtime - it's an expected, contracted shift, then how you are reimbursed, whether a lieu day or enhanced payment, doesn't matter. It's not doing any uncontracted overtime that is the Action Short of a Strike, not how contracted overtime is paid or reimbursed.

 

[Halwynd]

Despite what some on here think, this particular industrial action is very much in the public conciseness and if nothing else presents a feeling of the country being in chaos...

But what does that achieve?

We all know there's going to be a General Election soon, and assuming Sir Keir Starmer isn't outed as an alien from the planet Zonk, I think its safe to assume Labour will be in government before the end of the year. Why not just suspend the action, create some goodwill with passengers, and re-start negotiations at that stage?

Public consciousness will damage the railway long-term. I've lost count of the number of people who have pulled a face over the years when I've suggested travelling by train. Does maintaining public consciousness of strike action help? Passenger consciousness? Well, the work colleagues I speak to have had there lives affected quite negatively during periods of disruption (one arrived at work in tears one particular day last year after being stuck at Huyton station for almost three hours during an overtime ban last year - she'd had enough, it was the straw that broke the camels back and she left, taking with her 20 years experience that could never be replaced). And for what? Nothing really. I'll let you guess what other commuting colleagues think.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides. I'm a union member too and I can see your argument, but I'm afraid the strategy now is wrong.

 

[Buffer stop]

Makes you wonder why ASLEF are helping the TOCS by agreeing rest working whilst in dispute.

Very strange strategy.

 

[Bald Rick]

Despite what some on here think, this particular industrial action is very much in the public conciseness

It’s not really, though, is it. It is on this forum, and in some other places, but I have lost count of the number of people both outside and inside the industry who have asked me if there are still strikes on. Outside of the industry, I think very few people know that it is drivers that are striking, nor what for.

and if nothing else presents a feeling of the country being in chaos

It really, really doesn’t, in my opinion. Government is managing to do that itself on all sorts of fronts, of which this dispute barely registers.

I really don‘t see what ASLEF are trying to do here, other than somehow appear to be relevant (which they are not doing, IMHO), and lose their members money to convince them that they are owed something back.

 

[bluenoxid]

Are they (in their minds) trying to jolt public awareness in the lead up to the various elections being held on 2 May? At least one Union (not railways) appears to be planning their strategy around strike action during an election campaign.

 

[Rail101]

I'm surprised by what seems to be a fair few people thinking that Labour will resolve this quickly, or even at all. Their announcements and proposed policies are all about being safe and that's not going to change when in government. They are terrified of being accused of mismanaging the economy and it's an incredibly easy win for the Tories to say that Labour have caved in to the unions' demands. Look at how they talk about NHS staff as if they're shirkers and not doing enough. Can't see them deciding to do a deal with train drivers.

I agree that it seems people don't care as much about the strikes any more and that they only seem to be harming the likelihood of passengers returning to the railways. That's not to say they are right or wrong, but that appears to be the risk. The level of disruption on a non strike day as a relatively frequent user of Thameslink is high and as someone who has no choice but to travel by train is incredibly wearying.

 

[irish_rail]

. Can't see them deciding to do a deal with train drivers.

You seriously don't think Labour would do a deal, say 4 percent no strings for train drivers? Why not? it would pay for itself. These strikes have already cost the railway and wider economy far far more than they have saved by not giving drivers a modest rise, it really isn't in Labour's interest to prolong this for the sake of a very modest pay increase.

It’s not really, though, is it. It is on this forum, and in some other places, but I have lost count of the number of people both outside and inside the industry who have asked me if there are still strikes on. Outside of the industry, I think very few people know that it is drivers that are striking, nor what for.



It really, really doesn’t, in my opinion. Government is managing to do that itself on all sorts of fronts, of which this dispute barely registers.

I really don‘t see what ASLEF are trying to do here, other than somehow appear to be relevant (which they are not doing, IMHO), and lose their members money to convince them that they are owed something back.

Fact is leisure and hospitality has suffered. Whether or not the electorate care if a local bar or hotel closes down is up for debate, but the strikes have damaged the leisure economy whether you like it or not. They have certainly proved more costly for the country than the money they have saved in not giving drivers a modest rise.

 

[Silverlinky]

It's what comes after the "4% no strings" because that's only kicking the can down the road when it comes to modernisation and reform.

Any offer soon after an expected election would mean you'd be straight into talking about the next years deal or is the suggestion that "RPI Plus" pay rises will reappear?

 

[Rail101]

You seriously don't think Labour would do a deal, say 4 percent no strings for train drivers? Why not? it would pay for itself. These strikes have already cost the railway and wider economy far far more than they have saved by not giving drivers a modest rise, it really isn't in Labour's interest to prolong this for the sake of a very modest pay increase.

I don't see it happening early on. In time maybe. They're scared of being perceived as reckless on the economy and it would be an easy attack line. Maybe that strategy will shift slightly when they're in Government. It's not necessarily about it paying for itself or being a logical decision for the sake of the railway and passengers, it's about whether Labour think it will be something that will be used against them. If they do think it will be then they will be reluctant. That's all it comes down to IMO - what the perception will be and how easy it will be for them to be portrayed as just giving the 'union barons' whatever they want.

 

[The Planner]

Fact is leisure and hospitality has suffered. Whether or not the electorate care if a local bar or hotel closes down is up for debate, but the strikes have damaged the leisure economy whether you like it or not. They have certainly proved more costly for the country than the money they have saved in not giving drivers a modest rise.

Not sure what sort of a dent these upcoming ones will have on leisure and hospitality, its not half term and its a working week.

 

[irish_rail]

It's what comes after the "4% no strings" because that's only kicking the can down the road when it comes to modernisation and reform.

Any offer soon after an expected election would mean you'd be straight into talking about the next years deal or is the suggestion that "RPI Plus" pay rises will reappear?

I'm not really sure how drivers can be much more productive. Modernisation and reform is a total misnomer. When I drive a busy Plymouth to London train, my "fee" is say 150 quid. On that train is 20k worth of revenue. Yes, modernisation and reform is needed, but not from the driving (or other staff) grades.

Not sure what sort of a dent these upcoming ones will have on leisure and hospitality, its not half term and its a working week.

There is a massive perception that if you book a weekend break to xyz that you may end up being caught out. On this occasion it is workers being targeted, but next time it may be a bank holiday or weekend. It's all about perception. As long as it is perceived there is a chance strikes may disrupt your plans, people are less likely to make those plans in the first place.

 

[21C101]

In the work from home/flexible working era this occasional one day striking and overtime ban is a waste of time. The only thing that might work is an indefinite all out but ASLEF wont do that as they know it wouldn't be supported solidly for more than a few days.

High speed broadband communications has shot ASLEFs fox. The oniy people really hurt are the poorest workers who can't work flexibly. And they have zilch influence on the powers that be.

And sooner or later the SLA will be imposed, probanly when a general election is imminent.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fact is leisure and hospitality has suffered.

But has it? Certainly some individual leisure and hospitality places will have suffered, but has the market overall suffered?

No, it hasn’t.

The first recent article I could find on the subject:

Spotlight: UK Leisure – 2024

Savills Research provides advice and analysis to clients across the UK and globally, with specialists in commercial, residential and rural property research.

www.savills.co.uk

It’s a long article with lots of actual facts, so I won’t quote it all, but the headline is:

Leisure spending has seen a continued uptick in performance over the last 12 months, in spite of consumer belt-tightening and cost of living increases

and

Nevertheless, entertainment spend, which includes membership clubs, cinemas, ticketed events, sports, galleries, and tourist attractions, has also performed above its pre-Covid benchmark at a number of significant points throughout 2023. Easter and the summer months saw the biggest spikes in entertainment spend, peaking in July at 240 basis points above the mean for February 2020.

Meanwhile, pub, restaurant and fast food spend has seen even more impressive results. Spending between May and November 2022 indexed above pre-Covid levels.

and there isn’t a single mention of rail strikes in the whole piece.

 

[class ep-09]

I predict the results of the strike to be as follows:

• Drivers: Lose a day's pay which can be made up for via overtime with no net change to hours worked.
• Government: No reaction, aside from a bunch of hot air.
• Customers: Emiserated. Again.

I do wonder how many customers who would normally support the unions in their action are getting dangerously close to thinking "Reagan had the right idea when dealing with air traffic controller strikes".

And who is going to train new drivers if old ones are all fired as per Reagan idea?