At what point before an advance train does your ticket work at the station barriers?

[Skymonster]

Advances are all set to let in 25 minutes before with a couple of specific exceptions.

Haha… East Midlands Railway were up to similar tricks at Derby a while ago. And when my Advance was rejected around 45 minutes before departure, the gateline staff said policy was to allow passengers through only once the preceding train had departed. This, they claimed, was to stop passengers getting on the wrong train, either accidentally or deliberately. I politely explained that I was well aware of the conditions associated with my ticket and I wished to use the coffee shop on the platform before my train departed. Nevertheless, they wouldn’t budge, so I insisted a manager was called who basically said he’d make an exception and let me through on that one occasion - by which time the point was almost moot as the preceding train was at the platform and due to depart within a couple of minutes. I have also had EMR staff check rejected off-peak tickets tell me I can’t go onto the platform until just before the off-peak ticket becomes valid - for the same reasons, to stop misuse - which I politely pushed back on for the same reason, to use the coffee shop on the platform (on that occasion, after an initial no and my request to talk to a manager they wrote “ticket conditions advised” on the ticket and let me through).

I followed both up with complaints to EMR, pointing out that the purpose of Advance and Off-peak tickets is to restrict the time a passenger travels, not the time they might wish to access the station facilities. Those seem to have fallen on deaf ears as I have had no replies. On the other had though I have not established whether policy has changed more recently as I haven’t needed to travel on an Advance or on the cusp of the peak/off-peak changeover since.

 

[Annetts key]

That’s dead handy, NR possibly being for Northern Rail, Network Rail, National Rail or, are there any others?

I prefer NWR as shorthand for Network Rail.

 

[MikeWh]

I followed both up with complaints to EMR, pointing out that the purpose of Advance and Off-peak tickets is to restrict the time a passenger travels, not the time they might wish to access the station facilities. Those seem to have fallen on deaf ears as I have had no replies.

Did you consider writing to the owner of the coffee shop alerting them to the fact that EMR are disrupting their trade?

 

[sheff1]

Did you consider writing to the owner of the coffee shop alerting them to the fact that EMR are disrupting their trade?

The 'coffee shop' is a SSP outlet. As they also operate the outlet in the booking hall I doubt they would be that bothered.
Certainly something to consider though if access is denied at a station with an independent business after the ticket barriers.

 

[island]

I have also had EMR staff check rejected off-peak tickets tell me I can’t go onto the platform until just before the off-peak ticket becomes valid - for the same reasons, to stop misuse - which I politely pushed back on for the same reason, to use the coffee shop on the platform (on that occasion, after an initial no and my request to talk to a manager they wrote “ticket conditions advised” on the ticket and let me through).

I followed both up with complaints to EMR, pointing out that the purpose of Advance and Off-peak tickets is to restrict the time a passenger travels, not the time they might wish to access the station facilities. Those seem to have fallen on deaf ears as I have had no replies.

Ultimately the station is private property so they can decide who they will let into what parts and at what times (subject always to ensuring you can exercise your contractual right to get on the train that you have purchased a ticket for). You don't have a right to go on the platform at any random time just because it has better/different/cheaper coffee.

 

[ashkeba]

Ultimately the station is private property so they can decide who they will let into what parts and at what times (subject always to ensuring you can exercise your contractual right to get on the train that you have purchased a ticket for). You don't have a right to go on the platform at any random time just because it has better/different/cheaper coffee.

How were they changed from publicly-owned spaces to that?

 

[Watershed]

How were they changed from publicly-owned spaces to that?

I think it's a stretch to call property owned by Network Rail - which is fully owned by the government - private land. It no more constitutes private land than a council library.

The salient point here isn't the ownership of land, it's whether or not you have a right to access it. You have a right to access public highways, notwithstanding the fact they may be owned by "private" companies in some cases.

By contrast, there isn't a public right of access to or through (most) stations - and therefore you only have a right to access a station insofar as you have been given a specific right to access it, for example, by buying a ticket.

These principles have been unchanged since the railways first opened.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

How were they changed from publicly-owned spaces to that?

I think it's a stretch to call property owned by Network Rail - which is fully owned by the government - private land. It no more constitutes private land than a council library.

I think the problem is confusing publicly-owned with publicly-accessible.

The two aren't synonymous. To take a trivial example, it's obvious that 10 and 11 Downing Street are publicly owned, but as members of the (owning) public we don't have the right to access the Prime Minister's bedroom.

More relevantly, railway land is (by way of Network Rail and the DfT) publicly owned. But it doesn't follow that there's public access to it. I hope no-one here would argue for a right to roam around railway depots and tracks. And if that is accepted, why should there be a right to enter the much safer railway land that is a station? Obviously for a station to work it needs to be possible for passengers to enter - but that's by permission and not by right.

 

[Gonzoiku]

I think the problem is confusing publicly-owned with publicly-accessible.

The two aren't synonymous. To take a trivial example, it's obvious that 10 and 11 Downing Street are publicly owned, but as members of the (owning) public we don't have the right to access the Prime Minister's bedroom.

More relevantly, railway land is (by way of Network Rail and the DfT) publicly owned. But it doesn't follow that there's public access to it. I hope no-one here would argue for a right to roam around railway depots and tracks. And if that is accepted, why should there be a right to enter the much safer railway land that is a station? Obviously for a station to work it needs to be possible for passengers to enter - but that's by permission and not by right.

Well said you.

GZ

 

[Skymonster]

Ultimately the station is private property so they can decide who they will let into what parts and at what times (subject always to ensuring you can exercise your contractual right to get on the train that you have purchased a ticket for). You don't have a right to go on the platform at any random time just because it has better/different/cheaper coffee.

I understand that. However, I don’t accept that a TOC has the right to dictate the period prior to a booked train departing that a passenger can access the platform. As I said, it’s the ticket that carries conditions in terms of the service(s) that can be used, not the act of being on a platform Amd a person with a ticket should be admitted as a genuine passenger. If it really is a case of EMR trying reducing invalid travel, the logical extension of the argument is to ensure passengers actually goes to the correct platform and boards the correct service too, rather than just try to exercise control through allowing - or nit allowing - access through the barriers. And has already said, at some stations it could be construed as a restraint of trade when there are facilities on the platforms that aren’t available in the main building (in Derby’s case that might not be a coffee shop as there is also one on the concourse) and in Derby that includes toilets (none in the main concourse) and even seating which is somewhat more plentiful past the barriers. Ironically had a rocked up with a notepad and camera and said I was a train spotter, they would in all likelihood waved me through as they are usually want to do.

 

[island]

I understand that. However, I don’t accept that a TOC has the right to dictate the period prior to a booked train departing that a passenger can access the platform.

Well, it does, whether you accept it or not.

As I said, it’s the ticket that carries conditions in terms of the service(s) that can be used, not the act of being on a platform Amd a person with a ticket should be admitted as a genuine passenger.

How long before a train do you feel a passenger should be able to get on the platform? An hour? Two hours? Anytime that day?

If it really is a case of EMR trying reducing invalid travel, the logical extension of the argument is to ensure passengers actually goes to the correct platform and boards the correct service too, rather than just try to exercise control through allowing - or nit allowing - access through the barriers.

That would be impracticable from a staffing perspective.

And has already said, at some stations it could be construed as a restraint of trade when there are facilities on the platforms that aren’t available in the main building

"Restraint of trade" doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

(in Derby’s case that might not be a coffee shop as there is also one on the concourse)

If you can identify a station where the only coffee shop in the vicinity is behind ticket gates, I'll buy you a coffee there.

and in Derby that includes toilets (none in the main concourse)

Train companies have a legitimate interest in limiting access to toilets to prevent vandalism...

and even seating which is somewhat more plentiful past the barriers. Ironically had a rocked up with a notepad and camera and said I was a train spotter, they would in all likelihood waved me through as they are usually want to do.

...but if you ask politely to be let through for a legitimate purpose, you have a decent chance of being allowed.

 

[ashkeba]

How long before a train do you feel a passenger should be able to get on the platform? An hour? Two hours? Anytime that day?

An hour would be fine at most stations, but maybe two if there is a restaurant. Not sure if any remain in the UK.

That would be impracticable from a staffing perspective.

The current approach is impractical from a customer retention perspective.

If you can identify a station where the only coffee shop in the vicinity is behind ticket gates, I'll buy you a coffee there.

Ely where Locoespresso is open at times the others are not. I expect there are many others.

Train companies have a legitimate interest in limiting access to toilets to prevent vandalism...

...but if you ask politely to be let through for a legitimate purpose, you have a decent chance of being allowed.

How many vandals hold Advance tickets and do their vandalling early?

Accessing the platforms when travelling soon is a legitimate purpose!

 

[dosxuk]

How long before a train do you feel a passenger should be able to get on the platform? An hour? Two hours? Anytime that day?

There's an advert for McDonalds going round at the moment - hotel guest at check in:
> Hi, I'm running a bit early, but would like to use the pool before my room is ready
> Sure, let me just check, err, your booking isn't for five months
> Yeah?

 

[island]

An hour would be fine at most stations, but maybe two if there is a restaurant. Not sure if any remain in the UK.

No idea either.

The current approach is impractical from a customer retention perspective.

Disagreed. No customers other than you seem to care.

Ely where Locoespresso is open at times the others are not. I expect there are many others.

Ely does not have ticket gates and there's a Costa in the Tesco's over the road.

How many vandals hold Advance tickets and do their vandalling early?

I don’t think there can be any answer to that.

Accessing the platforms when travelling soon is a legitimate purpose!

I agree. An hour is not "soon", though.

 

[Benjwri]

If you can identify a station where the only coffee shop in the vicinity is behind ticket gates, I'll buy you a coffee there.

Didcot Parkway is a most definite example, Swindon too I believe

 

[Deerfold]

If you can identify a station where the only coffee shop in the vicinity is behind ticket gates, I'll buy you a coffee there.

Hitchin

 

[island]

Didcot Parkway is a most definite example,

Starbucks in the Orchard centre down the road

Swindon too I believe

Queens Tap over the road has takeaway coffee

Hitchin

Costa machine in Tesco Express over the road

I'm sure the moderators won't thank me for dragging the thread off topic so the offer from post 41 (which was only addressed to Skymonster anyway) is now withdrawn, but happy to discuss more in an appropriate thread.

 

[Benjwri]

Starbucks in the Orchard centre down the road

Was not planning on taking up the offer anyways, but on a slightly more on topic note, this point really depends on what you call the vicinity. On the topic of the thread, I hardly think it is reasonable for a dateline attendant to tell someone they can't get their coffee early, and they should walk to a coffee shop, which in the case of Didcot Parkway is indeed the Orchard Centre, however this is a half mile walk from the station.

 

[Scott1]

Was not planning on taking up the offer anyways, but on a slightly more on topic note, this point really depends on what you call the vicinity. On the topic of the thread, I hardly think it is reasonable for a dateline attendant to tell someone they can't get their coffee early, and they should walk to a coffee shop, which in the case of Didcot Parkway is indeed the Orchard Centre, however this is a half mile walk from the station.

That doesn't apply at Derby though, which was the subject of the person's complaint. There is a Greg's, a Costa and a WHSmith outside the gateline, and both the cafes have seats, and there's a heated waiting room. Inside there is another Costa and a SSP outlet.

 

[ashkeba]

Ely does not have ticket gates and there's a Costa in the Tesco's over the road.

[...] An hour is not "soon", though.

I think an hour is soon. I suspect you have no mobility problems and haven't visited Ely since the ticket barriers were installed. And I believe the Costa opens later and closes earlier than some in the station but I've not checked every day.

 

[sheff1]

Ely does not have ticket gates and there's a Costa in the Tesco's over the road.

Ely does have ticket gates and why should ticket holding passengers have to cross the road to have a pre-journey coffee when there are perfectly decent outlets under cover on the platform ?