AT300 possible guaging issues into Cornwall

[Woody]

With reference to the proposed replacement of GWR's HST's by AT300s on the Paddington/Devon and Cornwall route from 2018 I have heard rumours that there are gauging issues with the tight track curvature at Saltash and at Plymouths St Budeaux Victoria road stations that could prevent AT300s from operating beyond Plymouth into Cornwall. Can anyone confirm or deny these rumours?
At 26 metres long the AT300 coaches are 3 metres longer than the current 23 metre HST coaches.

 

[Harbornite]

I hadn't heard this before, GWR and Network Rail would probably take any gauging issues into account or else Cornwall would be cut off if there were issues. I had heard that there were issues at Bristol Temple Meads, but I think these are being addressed.

 

[Rich McLean]

With reference to the proposed replacement of GWR's HST's by AT300s on the Paddington/Devon and Cornwall route from 2018 I have heard rumours that there are gauging issues with the tight track curvature at Saltash and at Plymouths St Budeaux Victoria road stations that could prevent AT300s from operating beyond Plymouth into Cornwall. Can anyone confirm or deny these rumours?
At 26 metres long the AT300 coaches are 3 metres longer than the current 23 metre HST coaches.

The curves on Royal Albert Bridge are the issue, but it's expected that work will take place to combat this in time for service introduction

 

[Rail.Fan]

Could this mean some class 43s are kept?

 

[Rich McLean]

Could this mean some class 43s are kept?

Only for the not yet confirmed HST GTIs, which will be on West Diagrams. The clearance work will be done for AT300s

 

[100andthirty]

It is not unusual for adjustments to be made to infrastructure to accommodate new and "more standard" (in gauging terms) vehicles.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The Hastings route via Battle being a classic case

 

[jimm]

With reference to the proposed replacement of GWR's HST's by AT300s on the Paddington/Devon and Cornwall route from 2018 I have heard rumours that there are gauging issues with the tight track curvature at Saltash and at Plymouths St Budeaux Victoria road stations that could prevent AT300s from operating beyond Plymouth into Cornwall. Can anyone confirm or deny these rumours?
At 26 metres long the AT300 coaches are 3 metres longer than the current 23 metre HST coaches.

Yes, naturally GWR has ordered expensive new express trains for Cornwall that cannot run into Cornwall...:roll:

Do you not think they might have checked with Network Rail that the trains could cross the Tamar before signing the contract?

We had this kind of nonsense previously over IEPs, which were supposedly going to crash into every platform and bridge from Paddington to Bristol and Swansea - despite the existence of the Intercity Express Programme: Western Capability project.

The March 2016 update on this project can be found via this page - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/delivery-plans/control-period-5/cp5-delivery-plan/ - click on the link for CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan (Update March 2016) and see page 93, which lists London to Exeter/Paignton/Plymouth/Penzance via Westbury as a core route to be cleared for the new trains, alongside the other core GW routes and diversionary routes that trains from the IEP family will use.

I think Plymouth and Penzance were added to this list in the January 2016 update of the plan. Certainly they did not appear last June, where the list just had Exeter and Paignton.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Yes, naturally GWR has ordered expensive new express trains for Cornwall that cannot run into Cornwall...:roll:

Do you not think they might have checked with Network Rail that the trains could cross the Tamar before signing the contract?

It's happened before in France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

French red faces over trains that are 'too wide'
The French train operator SNCF has discovered that 2,000 new trains it ordered at a cost of 15bn euros ($20.5bn; £12.1bn) are too wide for many regional platforms.
The BBC's Christian Fraser in Paris says that it is an embarrassing blunder that has so far cost the rail operator over 50m euros ($68.4m; £40.6m).
Our correspondent says that the cost is likely to rise even further.
Construction work has already started to reconfigure station platforms.
The work will allow new trains room to pass through. But officials say that there are still 1,000 platforms to be adjusted.

The error seems to have happened because the national rail operator RFF gave the wrong dimensions to train company SNCF.
Our correspondent says that they measured platforms built less than 30 years ago, overlooking the fact that many of France's regional platforms were built more than 50 years ago when trains were a little slimmer.
The platform edges are too close to the tracks in some stations which means the trains cannot get in, officials say.
A spokesman for the RFF confirmed they had "discovered the problem a bit late".
Transport Minister Frederic Cuvillier blamed an "absurd rail system" for the problems.
"When you separate the rail operator from the train company," he said, "this is what happens."

 

[jimm]

It's happened before in France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

Maybe avoiding that kind of thing is why Network Rail has the Intercity Express Programme: Western Capability project - and a similar scheme for the ECML area too.

 

[NSEFAN]

It's happened before in France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

SNCF would love any excuse to close another rural railway. How do we know this isn't done on purpose?

And perhaps the DfT is just wanting to show Cornwall what true devolution means. "You want your direct trains to London? In that case you buy and operate them, we'll stick with what we've got thanks".

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I have heard rumours that there are gauging issues with the tight track curvature at Saltash and at Plymouths St Budeaux Victoria road stations that could prevent AT300s from operating beyond Plymouth into Cornwall. Can anyone confirm or deny these rumours?

Yes - the rumour is nonsense.

There are some minor gauging works to deal with, but the curvature in question is acceptable for AT300.

The coach length has been known about for 25 years, it's a British Rail design for what would have been their Mark 5 coach (no relation to the CAF 22 metre design) and it fitted at that point anywhere that took a Mark 3 design, though there would need to be some minor alterations, it's mainly things like platform edging, and a small amount of lineside equipment; lighting and some signalling equipment - cabinets, posts and telephones.

It's also worth remembering, whilst the total length over couplers is 26 metres, the centre 22.5 metres is essentially identical to the Mark 3 - the length between bogie centres is the same, and the throw of the central portion of the coach is pretty much identical to a Mark 3 give or take differences in suspension and yaw rates, the extra 1.25 metres at either end are heavily tapered to have as little overthrow as possible and remain inside the kinematic envelope where possible, and the remaining 500mm at either end is well within the loading gauge as it's the gangways and couplers.

 

[daikilo]

It's happened before in France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

If I recall correctly, the issue was actually over tolérances rather than reference dimensions. I can't find it now, but I believe very few platforms actually needed to be adjusted to the lower tolerance, but the older ones needed to be checked.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I should think most of the clearance work needed on GW routes (eg at Bristol) is for the OHLE system rather than IEP as such.
The Cornish AT300s won't need any of that for a long while.
Clearance work will also now be needed on TPE routes Leeds-Liverpool for OHLE, and for the train itself on the usual diesel diversion routes (CLC, Guide Bridge, Calder Valley), plus any off-ECML routes not already cleared for VTEC.

 

[Class 170101]

I assume gauging issues have been checked on lines where the IEP design will see occasional rather than regular use.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I assume gauging issues have been checked on lines where the IEP design will see occasional rather than regular use.

Yes. That's one of the reasons why we've got the structure gauging train plodding around the network.

 

[Class 170101]

Yes. That's one of the reasons why we've got the structure gauging train plodding around the network.

Cheers. I was just concerbed that as a means of saving money some of these occasional routes would just simply be barred to IEP.

 

[jimm]

I should think most of the clearance work needed on GW routes (eg at Bristol) is for the OHLE system rather than IEP as such.
The Cornish AT300s won't need any of that for a long while.
Clearance work will also now be needed on TPE routes Leeds-Liverpool for OHLE, and for the train itself on the usual diesel diversion routes (CLC, Guide Bridge, Calder Valley), plus any off-ECML routes not already cleared for VTEC.

The Intercity Express Programme: Western Capability project - and the ECML equivalent - are specifically IEP/AT300-related, because lots of the routes listed for checking/clearance work are nowhere near being electrified - e.g. to Devon and Cornwall, the Cotswold Line, Swindon-Gloucester/Cheltenham/Worcester and the empty stock/diversion routes. It all adds up to many more route miles than are covered by the current GW wiring scheme.

Cheers. I was just concerbed that as a means of saving money some of these occasional routes would just simply be barred to IEP.

Route listed in the document I linked to above are below. The page also lists the scope of what is involved, should anyone care to look at it.

The Hitachi Super Express Trains are proposed to operate over the following parts of the network.
Core routes
 London to Cardiff/Swansea/Carmarthen.
 London to Bristol/Weston Super Mare/Taunton.
 London to Gloucester/Cheltenham.
 London to Oxford/Worcester/Hereford.
 London to Exeter/Paignton/Plymouth/Penzance via Westbury.
Diversionary routes
 Westbury to Bath Spa.
 Gloucester to Severn Tunnel Junction
Cardiff to Bridgend via Barry.
 Castle Cary to Exeter via Yeovil.
 Reading to Waterloo.

Newport-Hereford is also going to be cleared for empty stock moves between Hereford and the depot at Bristol.

 

[al.currie93]

Only for the not yet confirmed HST GTIs, which will be on West Diagrams. The clearance work will be done for AT300s

HST GTIs? Can someone elaborate on these - haven't heard anything about them :P

 

[rebmcr]

HST GTIs? Can someone elaborate on these - haven't heard anything about them :P

Like this.

 

[swt_passenger]

HST GTIs? Can someone elaborate on these - haven't heard anything about them :P

There have been suggestions of short HSTs running services within Devon and Cornwall instead of cascaded DMUs; I think based on the assumption that electrification delays will also delay DMU cascades from the Thames Valley.

It's come up in other threads following tests of short HSTs being witnessed in the Plymouth area.

 

[Class 170101]

Route listed in the document I linked to above are below. The page also lists the scope of what is involved, should anyone care to look at it.

Newport-Hereford is also going to be cleared for empty stock moves between Hereford and the depot at Bristol.

Looks like Cheltenham to Gloucester has been missed plus also Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock plus Melksham.

Chiltern routes (and associated diversions) also look like they have been missed.

 

[edwin_m]

Looks like Cheltenham to Gloucester has been missed plus also Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock plus Melksham.

Chiltern routes (and associated diversions) also look like they have been missed.

Cheltenham to Gloucester is presumably part of "London to Gloucester/Cheltenham".

For the others, more likely "considered and rejected" not "missed". Presumably the diversionary route for closures in the Box Tunnel area would be via Newbury not Melksham, and Pembroke Dock may not be worth doing just for a summer Saturday, especially as it has some very tight tunnels.

 

[Class 170101]

Cheltenham to Gloucester is presumably part of "London to Gloucester/Cheltenham".

I meant Cheltenham to Worcester.

 

[MatthewRead]

There have been suggestions of short HSTs running services within Devon and Cornwall instead of cascaded DMUs; I think based on the assumption that electrification delays will also delay DMU cascades from the Thames Valley.

It's come up in other threads following tests of short HSTs being witnessed in the Plymouth area.

Yes that's right which should mean we get more green HST sets.

 

[Rich McLean]

Like this.

4 & 5 coach sets with two PCs will go like stink, hence the GTI reference

 

[jimm]

Looks like Cheltenham to Gloucester has been missed plus also Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock plus Melksham.

I suspect that in order to save space the reference to London/Worcester/Hereford is also intended to encompass Worcester via Cheltenham - on which there is a regular GW express service or two. Melksham is probably a given as well in the light of its importance as a diversionary route. It would be pretty dumb not to clear it.

Pembroke Dock you can forget - there is a tunnel on the route that would probably need to be rebored to take 26m stock and no one is going to bother for a few summer Saturday services.

Chiltern routes (and associated diversions) also look like they have been missed.

Perhaps the expectation is that once all the GWML modernisation work is out of the way, there will not be a need to go via the Chiltern line and that if a London alternative is needed occasionally, Waterloo should suffice. The Chiltern route only really came into the equation when there were the blockades through Reading.

Yes that's right which should mean we get more green HST sets.

Why? They're going to be a stopgap if they happen - no one is going to waste lots of money painting them green for a few months' more work.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will a wagon equipped with LIDAR and GPS be sent down every possible track to determine what works need doing?

 

[jon0844]

Like this.

Oh dear, I hope it won't have to pass an emissions test!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Will a wagon equipped with LIDAR and GPS be sent down every possible track to determine what works need doing?

What did I say about the structure gauging train ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why? They're going to be a stopgap if they happen - no one is going to waste lots of money painting them green for a few months' more work.

They may be more than a temporary stop gap. They could well end up being used in the ScotRail style, possibly with Class 158 units cascaded away from the franchise as a result.