ATW drivers told to wear Company tie

[reb0118]

Like most things in life this is not as simple as it first looks. I feel it is petty myself however:-

1. Was there a previous agreement allowing union ties to be worn?

2. Can this be seen as a form of petty retaliation?

3. Why not have a compromise - union ties can be worn with dark or company colours only - as at ScotRail.

4. Lots of rail staff wear union ties for many different reasons. Pride in the brotherhood of workers, to wear something that transcends a mere transitional TOC but represents a
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national rail entity, or even with asked by senior management why more and more staff were opting to wear union ties and did this mean they were becoming more militant? A local supervisor replied "no - the company issue tie is just mingin, poorly made, and falls to bits in the wind!"

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I quite honestly don't get what the argument is about anymore.

You've applied for a job with a company who's Policy it is to wear a company tie... is it really that awful? It's a tie for gods sake, if you're so unhappy about it then why are you staying with the company? It's a waste of time to complain over it, ATW have an image (on their clothing at least) to keep up - perhaps an agreement on badges could be made - but I don't see why people are kicking off over a tie!

 

[1V53]

As far as I am aware, as an ATW employee and RMT member, there has never been an agreement that allows staff to wear union ties. I am happy to stand corrected on this if anyone can prove otherwise?

There is an agreement that staff can wear a union badge. Regardless of the opinions of some on this forum that is an agreement and continues to the new uniform. It's a non issue discussing that as it's there, it's allowed, end of.

Personally, I feel if there is an agreement which has been ignored then fair enough, it is an important principle. However I do feel the drivers are just being petty over this assuming there is no agreement. No doubt quoting 'custom and practise' etc.

There are a lot of staff wearing all sorts of combinations of clothing at present and they look a complete mess. Image is important, and personally I feel if the company provide a fit for purpose uniform then they are within their rights to make us wear it. How a tie cannot be fit for purpose is beyond me?

Many of my colleagues are way out of touch with life outside the railway. Someone close to me has had a pay freeze for two years and now faces a pay cut of over 5% on top. Whilst that doesn't excuse a company to rip up agreements it does focus the mind a little. There are those with a childish bombastic defiant streak amongst my colleagues, and some of us would actually welcome some disciplinary action to kick them into line!

 

[reb0118]

As a separate issue the sad fact is that most rail companies uniform is not fit for purpose! I've worn uniforms all my life- school, BBs, army cadets & TA, Police, and now rail. The rail one as issued now is poorly made, ill fitting, and just not practical for todays modern railway. Quality is a major issue - my uniform does not last a year between issues - yet I still have ex police shirts that are going strong also some ex BR stuff that I wear from time to time.
To go back to the company ties - they a
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re in my case very poorly made. Loose stitching but more worryingly I get a horrible rust stain on my neck and white shirt from the clip. Not professional looking at all! The shirts crease if you look at them. Poorly made and not enough pockets. Jackets that stink in the rain of some horrible plastic stuff. Not waterproof with zips that snap after a few months. I supply my own shirts, trousers, and shoes.

Rant over.

 

[1V53]

If the company are happy with you doing that then fair enough, but otherwise they are within their rights to insist you wear it, replacing the garments that become rusty and damaged at reasonable intervals.

Unfortunately there are many in ATW who just don't like the uniform and make such excuses not to wear it. Ultimately 'not enough pockets' (in your opinion), is not a reason to simply wear your own. I'm sure others manage to wear it without all these problems?! If so the company should enforce you wearing it after making reasonable efforts to provide replacements for damaged items. Repeatedly wilfully damaging uniform to avoid wearing it should also be a disciplinary offence too in my opinion.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Unfortunately there are many in ATW who just don't like the uniform and make such excuses not to wear it.


Image indeed - not wanting to be associated with Arriva surely says it all - lets be honest no won was exactly partying for joy when it was announced they won the franchise were they? Most ATW staff live in Wales and will probably be aware that the policy of the current Administration (and the 3rd largest party at the 2011 election) is to take the Wales and Border franchise out of the private sector albeit at the end of franchise term. The message is there from the politicians in Cardiff Bay - Arriva and any other Bus bandit/ predatory foreign railway not wanted - as long as it doesn't cost anything to get rid of them. How exactly are staff going to be motivated/incentivised to work for Arriva in the meantime?

 

[spacehopper]

I think part of the problem is one size doesn't fit all! Standard of uniform given to traincrew is appalling. A bus drivers uniform is not suitable for a guard. We need pockets a bus driver less so. Frankly the bus drivers shirts given to First staff are the worse I've ever worn. Feel like kitchen towel paper hard to iron, shrinks in the wash and White shirts have a habit of getting poisoned. White shirts don't stay White for long with all muck on trains. The doormans/bouncer coat stinks when it gets wet. Not suitable for guards who work over third rail or go trackside often. I think it's also quite humiliating to have to wear purple or pink uniforms. I've warn some very garish uniforms in my time from green check to snooker player waistcoats. Rather than convey a professional image I end up dressed like a CBBC character. Think it's even worse for woman staff with see through blouses etc. How many woman staff like awful fitting trousers they wear? Goes too far having men with long hair forced to wear a female scrunchie and female nail varnish must be company colours.

 

[notadriver]

In France, drivers don't have to wear uniform at all.

Is it true that at some TOCs guards have to wear ties but drivers dont? Isn't that unfair ?

 

[Hydro]

Is it true that at some TOCs guards have to wear ties but drivers dont? Isn't that unfair ?

I couldn't say how true this was, but a guard can be conceived to be "customer facing" and therefore a company may choose to present a smarter image via a noose, sorry, tie.

I much prefer the idea of cargo trouser/polo shirt combination for work. Easy to clean and iron, cheap to replace, fairly hard wearing, plenty of pockets for miscellanea, and good to wear in most weathers. It's standard uniform for drivers and crew at work, barring NMT where the drivers tend to wear shirt and tie for a reason unknown to me.

 

[9K43]

I have always worn a uniform when at work.
It would be hard to keep it clean when multiplying locos, hooking on and off.
Going into pit yards knee deep in sludge, walking at the side of ballast trucks when discharging ballst onto uneven track, the list is endless.
Managers work 9 to 5 and have no idea what a shunt pole is for.
This is just a bit of management trying to rule the roost and making themselves look childish.
I have had 3 decades of that sort of sillyness, and I see its still the rage.
By the way we only got 1 dustcoat every 2 years.

 

[RPM]

In France, drivers don't have to wear uniform at all.QUOTE]

And indeed in Germany too....which makes you wonder why DB Arriva are soo keen on driver's uniform in Wales.

My own view is that a tie is not appropriate for a driver's uniform and I don't personally wear one. I wish they would provide a driver's uniform that is fit for purpose, i.e. comfortable, adaptable for different weather conditions, good quality and practical. Instead we get white shirts that show every grubby mark, nylon trousers that split at the crotch and suit type jackets with the outside pockets sewn up so we can't make them look unsightly by actually usung them. I kid you not. What we could really do with is strong boots, combat style trousers with plenty of pockets, polo shirts, blouson type jacket with loads of pockets, fleece jacket.

 

[1V53]

In France, drivers don't have to wear uniform at all.QUOTE]

And indeed in Germany too....which makes you wonder why DB Arriva are soo keen on driver's uniform in Wales.

My own view is that a tie is not appropriate for a driver's uniform and I don't personally wear one. .

Ok but if push comes to shove you wear it or get another job.

 

[RPM]

Ok but if push comes to shove you wear it or get another job.

If it was made compusory then I'd wear one but I can't actually see that happening.

 

[Flamingo]

Smacks to me of ASLEF wanting the "publicity" of it's members wearing their ties.

The TOC pays the wages, and asking members to adhere to a uniform dress code (if the uniform is supplied, and is fit for purpose) is not unreasonable.

I know some posters are saying that it is Arriva being petty. Sorry, but I think that it's ASLEF members looking for something to moan about.

And whilst we're on the subject, I live and work in South Wales, I can't remember ever seeing an Arriva driver wearing an ASLEF tie - in fact I can only think of one or two who I can remember seeing wearing a tie at all, which I suspect is the real issue here. Drivers are told that the uniform policy applies to them as well, so they think "Well, if I have to wear a tie, I'm going to wear the union one just to piddle off ATW".

 

[jon0844]

This is a story where the full facts are very important, as this thread has already had anti-ATW and anti-union comments, even though nobody knows the exact story.

The closest is that there is no agreement about not wearing the full uniform, but there is an allowance to wear a badge.

Personally, as a passenger, I like to see staff that are approachable and look professional (ideally, they act it too!) and a proper uniform is one way to do that. But, does a driver need to wear a full uniform? Possibly not. Does a uniform need to be good quality? Definitely yes.

Now, why doesn't the union see if they could produce a tie with permission from ATW that has the logo within the design? Or else, as said above, why not just pin the union badge to the tie?

What about wearing an ID card on a union lanyard? Any rules about that?

But, also as a passenger, why does anyone working on the railway need to wear anything to show what union they are in? My membership card is hidden away in my wallet (actually, come to think of it, I am not sure it's even in there).

I'd assume that most people working on the railway are union members, so maybe the non-members should wear something instead?!

 

[1V53]

Smacks to me of ASLEF wanting the "publicity" of it's members wearing their ties.

The TOC pays the wages, and asking members to adhere to a uniform dress code (if the uniform is supplied, and is fit for purpose) is not unreasonable.

I know some posters are saying that it is Arriva being petty. Sorry, but I think that it's ASLEF members looking for something to moan about.

And whilst we're on the subject, I live and work in South Wales, I can't remember ever seeing an Arriva driver wearing an ASLEF tie - in fact I can only think of one or two who I can remember seeing wearing a tie at all, which I suspect is the real issue here. Drivers are told that the uniform policy applies to them as well, so they think "Well, if I have to wear a tie, I'm going to wear the union one just to piddle off ATW".

I have heard most of the drivers at Carmarthen have recently purchased a union tie to make a point. I'm not sure what point but a point nonetheless.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps the union planned to make this a serious conflict to sell more ties and badges, and bolster membership. After all, I'm sure they need to turn a profit like anyone else!

 

[Flamingo]

I have heard most of the drivers at Carmarthen have recently purchased a union tie to make a point. I'm not sure what point but a point nonetheless.

I rest my case

 

[notadriver]

It's not surprising the union are at odds with ATW after the 'Milkfloat' jibe.

 

[Flamingo]

It's got to do with drivers not liking that uniform policy applies to them as well, nothing else. If they were told they must wear a union tie, it would be something else they would insist on wearing instead.

Don't dress it up as a union/management struggle, or oppression of the working classes.

 

[Whistler40145]

Why do railway staff have to wear ties?

I agree that staff need to look smart, but a nice shirt for Winter & a Polo style T Shirt with a Company Logo for Summer would suffice.

The management need to live in reality!

 

[Skoodle]

LOROL drivers are expected to turn up for work already in company uniform, including the tie, which can be either company issue or ASLEF. However, once in the driving cab, a driver is permitted to remove the tie and does not have to put it back on.

 

[GB]

Why do railway staff have to wear ties?

I agree that staff need to look smart, but a nice shirt for Winter & a Polo style T Shirt with a Company Logo for Summer would suffice.

The management need to live in reality!

Not all railway staff have to wear ties, its company specific and as an employee you are expected to adhere to the company uniform policy or face the consequences.

It would appear it is the staff that need to live in reality in this instance.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't think that anybody can argue with companies having a uniform policy. Even with it, there are enough staff who look like a sack of **** tied in the middle.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to iron a fresh shirt every day, and put polish on shoes.

 

[jon0844]

When I dress smart for work, such as when I am doing an interview, I must say a nice suit gives me confidence and also changes how people talk and look at me.

A uniform no doubt empowers the wearer so it is no bad thing, as long as staff don't let it go to their head as seems to be the case with PCSOs.

However I would say a driver should be allowed to dress more casual. So, make a more casual uniform for them and then ensure it is worn.

Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk

 

[tirphil]

I can only speak on what I have observed and been told about the situation on the Cambrian.

a) Most drivers on the Cambrian wear a union tie and have done for some years (3-4) Of those that don't most of the remainder do not wear a tie at all. It is my understanding that there are only 3-4 drivers (out of about 40) that wear the company tie. I do not know if there is a formal agreement in place.

b) I heard that drivers on the Cambrian were not going to be issued with the new company tie anyway because they were going to be issued with one with a Cambrian Railways partnership tie (or something of that ilk) It seems that this is not going to happen now due to cost.

c) With regard to the uniform it seems that most staff on the Cambrian (drivers and guards) have returned their new uniform as most of it doesn't fit. Ironically it would appear that the only piece of uniform that does fit people is the tie!!!!!

One poster mentioned archaic working practices and drivers working to rule and the example given was the dirty coupling boxes and drivers insisting that a fitter attends. As all coupling on the Cambrian takes place at Machynlleth where there are always fitters on duty and never more than a couple of minutes away I fail to grasp the point being made. How would that poster feel if someone else started doing his job to save a couple of minutes and therefore made him surplus to requirements?

 

[1V53]

Yes a lot of uniform is going back. The company (ATW) insisted on measuring staff, the vast majority protested at the results as most people were measured 2-3 sizes too big. They explained they wore 36" trousers not 40", but were ignored. Result? 40" trousers arrive: too big.

Of course the company knows better than the staff what sizes they need! Looks like the uniform roll out will be a bit of a farce

 

[Flamingo]

Which is about par for the course

 

[313103]

LOROL drivers are expected to turn up for work already in company uniform, including the tie, which can be either company issue or ASLEF. However, once in the driving cab, a driver is permitted to remove the tie and does not have to put it back on.

That is quite interesting. The reason why i say this is i use to be on the LOROL uniform comittee. This was not agreed. However i am off the group now so if you can send me the relevant info i would be very grateful.

More to the point why have a policy that requires you to wear a tie to book on then as soon as you get in a cab you can take off until the next turn of duty!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I can only speak on what I have observed and been told about the situation on the Cambrian.

a) Most drivers on the Cambrian wear a union tie and have done for some years (3-4) Of those that don't most of the remainder do not wear a tie at all. It is my understanding that there are only 3-4 drivers (out of about 40) that wear the company tie. I do not know if there is a formal agreement in place.

b) I heard that drivers on the Cambrian were not going to be issued with the new company tie anyway because they were going to be issued with one with a Cambrian Railways partnership tie (or something of that ilk) It seems that this is not going to happen now due to cost.

c) With regard to the uniform it seems that most staff on the Cambrian (drivers and guards) have returned their new uniform as most of it doesn't fit. Ironically it would appear that the only piece of uniform that does fit people is the tie!!!!!

One poster mentioned archaic working practices and drivers working to rule and the example given was the dirty coupling boxes and drivers insisting that a fitter attends. As all coupling on the Cambrian takes place at Machynlleth where there are always fitters on duty and never more than a couple of minutes away I fail to grasp the point being made. How would that poster feel if someone else started doing his job to save a couple of minutes and therefore made him surplus to requirements?

I've yet to see a Cambrian Driver with an ASLEF or any other tie. The fitters are only called after several minutes of ineffective ramming - despite the fact that coupling takes place at predictable times its surprising how long it sometimes it take the fitters to get to the UP platform. The Aberystwyth portion (0930 ex Aberystwyth) failed to join up with Coast one last Saturday, all the passengers had to transfer to the 2 coach coast portion and despite arriving Machynlleth on time departed 25 late with overcrowding all the way to Birmingham. Its been suggested that the coupler bags are used however I'm told the drivers wont take the bags off as it means going down on the tracks.