Austria (and perhaps other European countries?) return to full lockdown

[Bikeman78]

I've heard many saying the opposite too. The ones who I konw are off their feet were also the same way prior to COVID as well. One friend who works in a Nottingham hospital once said to me she was wondering why nobody ever made news that they were on 'red alert' (or whatever it was called, I can't remember) prior to 2020, yet now it is newsworthy.

There are some hospitals which are completely overrun more than normal, but there are also those who are fine.

Exactly this. Long before Covid, A&E departments had waiting times of two hours plus. People had to wait months for a routine operation. It seems unlikely that doctors and nurses had a quiet life before Covid.

 

[hst43102]

I've heard many saying the opposite too. The ones who I konw are off their feet were also the same way prior to COVID as well. One friend who works in a Nottingham hospital once said to me she was wondering why nobody ever made news that they were on 'red alert' (or whatever it was called, I can't remember) prior to 2020, yet now it is newsworthy.

There are some hospitals which are completely overrun more than normal, but there are also those who are fine.

November 2019 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856
June 2018 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44445303
February 2017 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38859225
December 2016 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38228411
January 2015 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949
December 2013 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25268451

Pressure on the NHS is nothing new. This problem should have been sorted years before Covid came along.

 

[kristiang85]

November 2019 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856
June 2018 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44445303
February 2017 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38859225
December 2016 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38228411
January 2015 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30679949
December 2013 : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25268451

Pressure on the NHS is nothing new. This problem should have been sorted years before Covid came along.

Exactly. It feels like the government and NHS executives now have a nice scapegoat to say why the NHS is broken - COVID - and, even worse, the preferred method to deal with it is to put the burden on us ordinary people and guilt trip us into accepting restrictions on our lives to save the deity that is the NHS.

I, for one, can see through it and will not stand for it.

 

[LAX54]

Probably about 5 minutes, if your're lucky.

But don't let said Labour MPs read the following article about anti lockdown Sweden having Western Europe's LOWEST INFECTION RATE.

Sweden now has Western Europe's LOWEST Covid infection rate

The Scandinavian nation - which was subject to international scrutiny last year when it refused to lockdown - is currently recording 85.4 cases per million people, compared to the UK's 580.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If we did the same, our infection numbers would be rock bottom !

 

[bramling]

If a society is prepared to go into lockdown — which at this stage it absolutely shouldn’t — then I don’t think it’s heavy handed at all. Nothing will persuade me that lockdowns are less impactful than forced vaccination. And that’s despite thinking compulsory medical procedures are ethically awful.

This really should be a false equivalence, but Austria has made it a real one.

Real or otherwise, it's a sick one. I see it as no different from forcing conversion therapy onto people, and that is a *very* nasty road for any country, let along a supposedly developed and civilised one, to be going down.

It is both disturbing and disappointing that Austria in particular, given their history, it leading the way on this.

 

[MikeWM]

Or they are going to suffer the long-term consequences of the effects of repeated infection; or even die from the second/subsequent infection as their body was weakened after the first case.

But that's not how the immune system works (in an otherwise healthy individual, at least).

 

[adc82140]

Austria is a strange one for laws at the best of times. Using a dashcam there will attract a fine of 10,000 euros. Compare that to here where you often hear the phrase "police are appealing for dashcam footage".

The PM of the Czech Republic has already stated that there will be no similar lockdown there, because they believe the vaccines work. The Northern Ireland version of SAGE has said that there will be no lockdowns.

Therefore I think Austria will be seen as a wacky outlier.

 

[AlterEgo]

If a society is prepared to go into lockdown — which at this stage it absolutely shouldn’t — then I don’t think it’s heavy handed at all. Nothing will persuade me that lockdowns are less impactful than forced vaccination. And that’s despite thinking compulsory medical procedures are ethically awful.

This really should be a false equivalence, but Austria has made it a real one.

Exactly this.

I haven't been able to get a handle on how popular or otherwise the measures are in Austria yet.

 

[greyman42]

Vaccinations were sold to us as a means of getting back to "..normality.." (whatever that means) without the need for restrictions.

If you lock down the whole country, regardless of vaccination status, it makes you question what is the point of having the vaccination in the first place.

But we have not locked down the whole country so we carry on getting our vaccinations.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's down to semantics. What exactly are you saying is "experiment" and how do you define it?

To the average person, these vaccines really aren't experimental in any meaningful sense of the term.

The data we have on the effectiveness of these vaccines in a relatively short time is huge. People may complain about how quickly the data has been but this is due to huge sums being thrown at it and huge amounts of data collected

I don't understand how anyone with any sense can object to these vaccines; the alternative would either be crippling lockdowns or an acceptance of many deaths.

It's experimental in as much as the scale of the vaccine and the pace and urgency of the rollout. But that's it really.

I would view it akin to being able to solve the pandemic by making everyone take three car journeys in a year, but the car is a new model which works a little differently. People generally trust cars to be safe, and most people think brand new cars from established manufacturers will be safe even if they've not seen them operate before. People who would refuse to take three car rides because they've been on Google and seen the car is very new, the government is making me do it, did you see someone got very badly hurt in a car wreck the other day, I already DID a car journey in a similar car...just are not reasonable people.

The level of risk is extremely low and there is no good reason to refuse, especially a year in to the rollout. There's just about no scenario where taking a vaccine is more risky to you than catching COVID at any age.

 

[bramling]

It's experimental in as much as the scale of the vaccine and the pace and urgency of the rollout. But that's it really.

I would view it akin to being able to solve the pandemic by making everyone take three car journeys in a year, but the car is a new model which works a little differently. People generally trust cars to be safe, and most people think brand new cars from established manufacturers will be safe even if they've not seen them operate before. People who would refuse to take three car rides because they've been on Google and seen the car is very new, the government is making me do it, did you see someone got very badly hurt in a car wreck the other day, I already DID a car journey in a similar car...just are not reasonable people.

The level of risk is extremely low and there is no good reason to refuse, especially a year in to the rollout. There's just about no scenario where taking a vaccine is more risky to you than catching COVID at any age.

It's the business of no one else whether someone chooses to take a vaccine or not. "I don't want it" is a good enough reason for me. To do anything otherwise is embarking on a slippery slope which I for one don't which to test out.

What will be the next thing the government might want us all to do to ourselves, or (even worse) some of ourselves?

Meanwhile, there's lots of other things we do, or don't do, which potentially impact upon NHS capacity. Why special treatment for deciding whether to take a specific vaccine?

 

[Mike395]

It's experimental in as much as the scale of the vaccine and the pace and urgency of the rollout. But that's it really.

I would view it akin to being able to solve the pandemic by making everyone take three car journeys in a year, but the car is a new model which works a little differently. People generally trust cars to be safe, and most people think brand new cars from established manufacturers will be safe even if they've not seen them operate before. People who would refuse to take three car rides because they've been on Google and seen the car is very new, the government is making me do it, did you see someone got very badly hurt in a car wreck the other day, I already DID a car journey in a similar car...just are not reasonable people.

The level of risk is extremely low and there is no good reason to refuse, especially a year in to the rollout. There's just about no scenario where taking a vaccine is more risky to you than catching COVID at any age.

Love that analogy and it's spot on in my opinion (noting that there are genuine cases where medical advice is that the vaccine is a heightened risk so the issue is more complex, but hopefully those people won't be taking advice from a railway forum!). That doesn't, however, mean I support mandation as there's an additional ethical grey area there.

In a vague attempt to steer this thread back on topic - it'll be interesting to see how other countries around Austria react from a border control perspective - somewhat suspecting that (perhaps Germany aside) nothing will happen there, which means I foresee a surge of cross-border early December breaks for those in Austria!

 

[brad465]

Or they are going to suffer the long-term consequences of the effects of repeated infection; or even die from the second/subsequent infection as their body was weakened after the first case.

Or are they going to suffer the long-term consequences of the effects of repeated/long term restrictions, which has created mental health problems, addiction problems, undiagnosed non-covid ailments and/or financial concerns for many? The ONS have been reporting record alcohol deaths in 2020 and depression symptom experiences doubling from 10% to 20% of adults, for example. Also look at the ONS' weekly deaths registered reports and you'll see deaths have been in excess here for over 3 months, but would have been in excess anyway if no-one was dying with covid. I don't know what the situation is like in Austria with excess deaths but would not be surprised if similar collateral damage was being reported for specific conditions, with some minor variations depending on culture.

Love that analogy and it's spot on in my opinion (noting that there are genuine cases where medical advice is that the vaccine is a heightened risk so the issue is more complex, but hopefully those people won't be taking advice from a railway forum!). That doesn't, however, mean I support mandation as there's an additional ethical grey area there.

In a vague attempt to steer this thread back on topic - it'll be interesting to see how other countries around Austria react from a border control perspective - somewhat suspecting that (perhaps Germany aside) nothing will happen there, which means I foresee a surge of cross-border early December breaks for those in Austria!

There was of course a musical where a group used a folk concert interval to break for the Swiss border, but lets not go too far down that road.

 

[MikeWM]

The latest UK vaccine surveillance report - which can be found here - show that in the last 4 weeks in over 18s, there were

- 2692 hospitalisations in the unvaccinated
- 6233 hospitalisations in the fully vaccinated

When you break it down by group and vaccine uptake, then yes, pro rata the unvaccinated are significantly more likely to be hospitalised than the vaccinated. But in terms of actual numbers and pressure put on hospitals, the fully vaccinated are well in the majority.

Even with 100% of people vaccinated, and assuming the vaccine cuts the chance of hospitalisation by about 70%, we're talking about 400 hospital admissions a week that could be prevented if you forced *everyone* to be vaccinated. Is that really worth destroying basic principles of our society?

And perhaps as importantly, does anyone really think that without those 400 weekly admissions, suddenly all these public health officials and NHS spokespeople would decide the pandemic was over?

 

[greyman42]

Even with 100% of people vaccinated, and assuming the vaccine cuts the chance of hospitalisation by about 70%, we're talking about 400 hospital admissions a week that could be prevented if you forced *everyone* to be vaccinated. Is that really worth destroying basic principles of our society?

I wonder how many of those could of avoided needing hospital treatment by living a more healthy lifestyle?

 

[bramling]

I wonder how many of those could of avoided needing hospital treatment by living a more healthy lifestyle?

We have one at work who has spent a considerable amount of time shielding. Gone from slightly overweight to heavily obese. Hardly a great outcome from the last 18 months. How many others?

 

[43066]

We have one at work who has spent a considerable amount of time shielding. Gone from slightly overweight to heavily obese. Hardly a great outcome from the last 18 months. How many others?

Several like that where I work, too. The usual (lazy, lead swinging) suspects. The rest of us just get on with things and, on the bright side, there’s plenty of rest day work available for those who want it.

 

[yorkie]

The latest UK vaccine surveillance report - which can be found here - show that in the last 4 weeks in over 18s, there were

- 2692 hospitalisations in the unvaccinated
- 6233 hospitalisations in the fully vaccinated

When you break it down by group and vaccine uptake, then yes, pro rata the unvaccinated are significantly more likely to be hospitalised than the vaccinated.

Exactly.

But in terms of actual numbers and pressure put on hospitals, the fully vaccinated are well in the majority.

Fully vaccinated people account for the vast majority of the population, so of course this is the case; it's meaningless.

 

[bramling]

Several like that where I work, too. The usual (lazy, lead swinging) suspects. The rest of us just get on with things and, on the bright side, there’s plenty of rest day work available for those who want it.

To be fair, for those genuinely in the extremely vulnerable category, it was a bit of a no-win situation, as following the guidance properly essentially meant remaining indoors, where the opportunity for exercise is quite limited. The one concerned was quite spooked by the whole thing, and was very uncomfortable even going to places like rural walks which were busier than normal especially last year.

However one way or other, it's certainly not a good outcome to have put on a shed load of weight.

 

[MikeWM]

Fully vaccinated people account for the vast majority of the population, so of course this is the case; it's meaningless.

It isn't a surprise, if that's what you mean by 'meaningless', but what it does mean is that if we're judging how we're doing by the yardstick of how many people are in hospital and how many are dying, then those numbers aren't going to be shifted much by persuading/coercing/forcing the remaining unvaccinated people to be vaccinated.

It shows that anyone saying 'well things are bad now, but if only we could vaccinate some more people, we'd be fine' isn't actually correct, because at this point it won't make that much of a difference (400 hospital admissions a week *across the entire country* really isn't going to make the difference between the NHS being fine and it breaking down).

 

[duncanp]

The latest UK vaccine surveillance report - which can be found here - show that in the last 4 weeks in over 18s, there were

- 2692 hospitalisations in the unvaccinated
- 6233 hospitalisations in the fully vaccinated

I think this is because most people are vaccinated now.

So a smaller percentage of vaccinated people being hospitalised multiplied by a larger number of vaccinated people means more vaccinated than unvaccinated people will end up in hospital.

What would be interesting is to know the average length of stay in hospital for vaccinated vs unvaccinated people.

I see that the Austrian lockdown is going to last a maximum of 20 days (yeah, right).

That means the lockdown could be classed as a "circuit breaker", and we all know how effective they are at suppressing the virus, don't we?

 

[adc82140]

The latest UK vaccine surveillance report - which can be found here - show that in the last 4 weeks in over 18s, there were

- 2692 hospitalisations in the unvaccinated
- 6233 hospitalisations in the fully vaccinated

When you break it down by group and vaccine uptake, then yes, pro rata the unvaccinated are significantly more likely to be hospitalised than the vaccinated. But in terms of actual numbers and pressure put on hospitals, the fully vaccinated are well in the majority.

Even with 100% of people vaccinated, and assuming the vaccine cuts the chance of hospitalisation by about 70%, we're talking about 400 hospital admissions a week that could be prevented if you forced *everyone* to be vaccinated. Is that really worth destroying basic principles of our society?

And perhaps as importantly, does anyone really think that without those 400 weekly admissions, suddenly all these public health officials and NHS spokespeople would decide the pandemic was over?

Up to a third of daily "admissions" actually are already in hospital when they test positive. If you're admitted to hospital for anything, then you're likely to be quite sick anyway. People will still die in hospital as a result of heart failure, cancer, pulmonary embolus, etc etc. Some of these will have tested positive. Still we don't get daily figures for people admitted to hospital who are ill because of Covid, nor to we get daily figures of deaths where Covid is the primary cause. "within 28 days of a positive test" or "where Covid is mentioned on the death certificate" means nothing.

 

[kylemore]

Real or otherwise, it's a sick one. I see it as no different from forcing conversion therapy onto people, and that is a *very* nasty road for any country, let along a supposedly developed and civilised one, to be going down.

It is both disturbing and disappointing that Austria in particular, given their history, it leading the way on this.

Well exactly.

You would hope given the history that there were dissenting voices in the Austrian Government attempting to make them see sense and avoid this insanity.

 

[WestRiding]

Well, at least it's for everyone I suppose.

Austria is a very strange country.

Looks like Germany is about to follow.....
Chuffing sick of this. Not been out of the country for nearly 2 years, just booked Germany thinking travel was a thing again, and looks like missing out again.

 

[WestRiding]

Following the news that Austria is to enter a Full Lockdown from Monday, all the papers are reporting that Germany will probably follow. When will this nonsense ever end....?

COVID-19: Germany may follow Austria into full lockdown as coronavirus cases hit new high

Berlin warns it could join its neighbours in closing schools, shops and bars - as Vienna hits out at "radical anti-vaxxers and fake news" after revealing plans for compulsory jabs.

news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org

COVID-19: Germany may follow Austria into full lockdown as coronavirus cases hit new high​

Berlin warns it could join its neighbours in closing schools, shops and bars - as Vienna hits out at "radical anti-vaxxers and fake news" after revealing plans for compulsory jabs.​

 

[43096]

Every year the NHS is under pressure; this year the pressure is far worse than usual.

Every year is always worse than the last in the NHS world. The NHS whinging about this year being the worst ever is as predictable as the clocks changing at the end of November.

 

[AlterEgo]

Looks like Germany is about to follow.....
Chuffing sick of this. Not been out of the country for nearly 2 years, just booked Germany thinking travel was a thing again, and looks like missing out again.

It's one region of Germany, I think.

One of the big problems Germany and Austria have is that the state pays for absolute horse poop treatments like homeopathy which literally does not work. Anti-medical views and an insistence against invasive treatment is the core issue driving anti-vaxx views in those countries.

Covid has destroyed many people's ideas of the continental European being somehow more sophisticated and wise. France and Germany have had peak Covid cringe at various points, much worse than the UK. We should be grateful we have held our nerve.

Incidentally, it is the furthest right parties in those countries which are most against mandatory vaccination.

 

[WestRiding]

It's one region of Germany, I think.

One of the big problems Germany and Austria have is that the state pays for absolute horse poop treatments like homeopathy which literally does not work. Anti-medical views and an insistence against invasive treatment is the core issue driving anti-vaxx views in those countries.

Covid has destroyed many people's ideas of the continental European being somehow more sophisticated and wise. France and Germany have had peak Covid cringe at various points, much worse than the UK. We should be grateful we have held our nerve.

Incidentally, it is the furthest right parties in those countries which are most against mandatory vaccination.

Hope you're right. Was hoping to go to Hamburg in December. Sick of it now. Absolutely sick of it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hope you're right. Was hoping to go to Hamburg in December. Sick of it now. Absolutely sick of it.

Hamburg is very different to Lederhosen Bonkers Beer Hall Land which is where all this stuff is cooking up at the moment.

 

[Busaholic]

And how exactly does this matter?

I may be old fashioned, but facts rather than bizarre conspiracy theories matter to me.