Avanti Sunday Cancellations

[peter166]

Currently Avanti Journeycheck is showing 22 cancelled trains this afternoon & evening.

From Liverpool to London 3 services in a row have been cancelled at 16.47, 17.47 & 18.47. Quite unbelievable but apparently nothing unusual. Avanti need to brought to account by somebody & some sanction taken against them for not providing the timetabled service.
To boot this eveing they have also cancelled the last train at 21.21from London to Liverpool

 

[Moonshot]

Currently Avanti Journeycheck is showing 22 cancelled trains this afternoon & evening.

From Liverpool to London 3 services in a row have been cancelled at 16.47, 17.47 & 18.47. Quite unbelievable but apparently nothing unusual. Avanti need to brought to account by somebody & some sanction taken against them for not providing the timetabled service.
To boot this eveing they have also cancelled the last train at 21.21from London to Liverpool

High rates of sickness. Lack of staff willing to work overtime. It's inevitable trains going to be cancelled.

 

[peter166]

Then its inevitable that people will increasingly stop buying tickets because the service is so unreliable & then there will be less setvices needed with an inevitable negative effect on the workforce needed.

High rates of sickness. Lack of staff willing to work overtime. It's inevitable trains going to be cancelled.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Then its inevitable that people will increasingly stop buying tickets because the service is so unreliable & then there will be less setvices needed with an inevitable negative effect on the workforce needed.

That aside, how do you propose Avanti crew a train when the current pandemic is causing a really high spike in sickness? They don’t cancel trains for the sake of it!

To a degree operators can’t win - they reduced train service down to a level that could reliably be crewed (hourly Manchesters etc) but then there was a backlash and lack of capacity so had to put extra services in but with the same level of sickness so now we have ad-hoc cancellations, the most logical solution is if traincrew can’t be rustled up through a magic trick is to revert to a reduced timetable!

 

[Chucky]

Sundays need to be a part of the working week and there need to be more staff. When companies are so reliant on overtime to run the advertised service then its inevitable that they will have to cancel trains if not enough people volunteer to work. Liverpool v Man City today. I bet half the depot at Lime Street and Longsight chucked it in today!

 

[Moonshot]

Sundays need to be a part of the working week and there need to be more staff. When companies are so reliant on overtime to run the advertised service then its inevitable that they will have to cancel trains if not enough people volunteer to work. Liverpool v Man City today. I bet half the depot at Lime Street and Longsight chucked it in today!

Loads of jobs uncovered today simply because of the football.

 

[Peter0124]

They really do need to make Sunday part of the working week.

 

[Newshound Mutt]

That aside, how do you propose Avanti crew a train when the current pandemic is causing a really high spike in sickness? They don’t cancel trains for the sake of it!

To a degree operators can’t win - they reduced train service down to a level that could reliably be crewed (hourly Manchesters etc) but then there was a backlash and lack of capacity so had to put extra services in but with the same level of sickness so now we have ad-hoc cancellations, the most logical solution is if traincrew can’t be rustled up through a magic trick is to revert to a reduced timetable!

It's funny how the Supermarkets don't have a high rate of sickness

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's funny how the Supermarkets don't have a high rate of sickness

My local supermarket actually does at the moment - the cafe is closed.

It’s a bit quicker to get additional resource off the street and train for a supermarket role compared to something like a train driver.

The closest analogy to Railway crew shortages is aviation and look how the likes of EasyJet, BA and Lufty are struggling with staff shortages.

 

[Moonshot]

They really do need to make Sunday part of the working week. Covid is not an excuse anymore. Stuff like this just drives passengers away.

17% of drivers and guards at my TOC are off sick. Some of that is Covid related. Clearly it's still an issue.

 

[Buffer stop]

Covid is really bad just now and causing staff shortages.

Sunday as part of the working week would require a deal to be done.
With apparently no money for any pay increase available then the Sunday issue is years away.

 

[Peter0124]

17% of drivers and guards at my TOC are off sick. Some of that is Covid related. Clearly it's still an issue.

I think TOCs need to recruit more staff aswell. Whilst its understandable some staff are off sick with covid, cancelling services like that is not good enough. They need to run timetables that work with the staff availability, and recruit more staff and have Sunday part of the working week!

I have edited 'Covid is not an excuse anymore' and 'Stuff like this just drives passengers away' out of my OP.

 

[danielcanning]

Let’s be honest here, this is equivalent to the ‘blue flu’ police officers come down with when they want better pay and conditions, Covid just makes that excuse easier…

 

[Dunnideer]

It's funny how the Supermarkets don't have a high rate of sickness

How do you know what the sickness rate is at Tesco or Asda? Is it published somewhere?

 

[seagull]

Sunday as part of the working week wouldn't make any difference, or could even make things worse as then crew would be paid while off sick, whereas now if they go off on Sunday they get paid nothing.

Avanti have committed Sundays already, so those required to work jobs have to work, cannot just "throw it in".

This current situation is caused more by a low number of rostered Sunday spares to cover vacant jobs in the first place, plus lots of vacancies, plus annual leave being taken, plus sickness.

 

[zwk500]

I think TOCs need to recruit more staff aswell. Whilst its understandable some staff are off sick with covid, cancelling services like that is not good enough. They need to run timetables that work with the staff availability, and recruit more staff and have Sunday part of the working week!

I have edited 'Covid is not an excuse anymore' out of my OP.

At the moment I believe the DfT gets the call on any additional spend by TOCs. Also, training operational rail staff takes time and therefore hiring more people tomorrow wouldn't be felt on rosters for some months, potentially a year. In that time, would you accept a timetable reduced to a level the TOC was able to staff consistently (e.g. 15-20% of trains removed)? That's before the practicalities of rewriting the timetable in a weekend get looked at.

 

[Peter0124]

At the moment I believe the DfT gets the call on any additional spend by TOCs. Also, training operational rail staff takes time and therefore hiring more people tomorrow wouldn't be felt on rosters for some months, potentially a year. In that time, would you accept a timetable reduced to a level the TOC was able to staff consistently (e.g. 15-20% of trains removed)? That's before the practicalities of rewriting the timetable in a weekend get looked at.

Ahh I understand now thanks

 

[Moonshot]

I think TOCs need to recruit more staff aswell. Whilst its understandable some staff are off sick with covid, cancelling services like that is not good enough. They need to run timetables that work with the staff availability, and recruit more staff and have Sunday part of the working week!

I have edited 'Covid is not an excuse anymore' out of my OP.

It's going the opposite way just now. No rest day working agreement, no sign of pay talks starting, absolutely no chance of Sundays coming inside the working week. RMT have stated they are in dispute with pretty much the entire industry....... ASLEF already have a mandate for strike action at my TOC. It's pretty clear that the likes of Avanti simply cannot run a normal service.

 

[philosopher]

Sunday as part of the working week wouldn't make any difference, or could even make things worse as then crew would be paid while off sick, whereas now if they go off on Sunday they get paid nothing.

Avanti have committed Sundays already, so those required to work jobs have to work, cannot just "throw it in".

This current situation is caused more by a low number of rostered Sunday spares to cover vacant jobs in the first place, plus lots of vacancies, plus annual leave being taken, plus sickness.

I may be wrong here, but Avanti do seem to be more impacted by staff shortages than the other Intercity operators. Even without these cancellations they seem to be running a much reduced service compared to before Covid relative to most of the other Intercity operators.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I may be wrong here, but Avanti do seem to be more impacted by staff shortages than the other Intercity operators. Even without these cancellations they seem to be running a much reduced service compared to before Covid relative to most of the other Intercity operators.

Great Western is also running a reduced Intercity service. EMR has been a huge focus of training to deliver the Corby service and some TOCs such as LNER have fared better with training bubbles during Covid compared to others

 

[guard1]

I thought Avanti drivers had Sundays inside the working week? Or is it like Northern with committed booked Sundays?

 

[seagull]

Committed booked: so effectively compulsory where booked and unable to source replacement cover, but with payment outside the salary.
Flat rate only so not a huge incentive for those on days off to volunteer.

 

[guard1]

Sounds like Avanti need to cross the palms of traincrew with some silver if they expect volunteers on unpopular Sundays then.

 

[43066]

Let’s be honest here, this is equivalent to the ‘blue flu’ police officers come down with when they want better pay and conditions, Covid just makes that excuse easier…

Is there evidence to back up that statement, or is it something you’ve just made up?!

I’m guessing the latter.

 

[Horizon22]

Sounds like Avanti need to cross the palms of traincrew with some silver if they expect volunteers on unpopular Sundays then.

Which won't be happening as it is more expensive to do so and that would require sign off from the DfT/Treasury. So it's a stalemate and passengers suffer.

 

[bramling]

I think TOCs need to recruit more staff aswell. Whilst its understandable some staff are off sick with covid, cancelling services like that is not good enough. They need to run timetables that work with the staff availability, and recruit more staff and have Sunday part of the working week!

I have edited 'Covid is not an excuse anymore' out of my OP.

Sunday in the working week won’t solve this on its own.

A lot of people simply don’t want to work weekends, especially during holiday periods, and that’s not unique to the railway. No matter how much tinkering with the seams is done, it will always come back to this.

Covid certainly doesn’t help, as this simply makes it easier for people to go sick.

 

[Horizon22]

Sunday in the working week won’t solve this on its own.

A lot of people simply don’t want to work weekends, especially during holiday periods, and that’s not unique to the railway. No matter how much tinkering with the seams is done, it will always come back to this.

Covid certainly doesn’t help, as this simply makes it easier for people to go sick.

It will certainly help though. I have worked many Sundays, because that is what is on the roster. It is accepted and part of the norm.

If you can throw in your Sundays, or there's not enough resource anyway, or there's no real incentive to work them additionally, there will always be problems. A robust Sunday roster is the only way to resolve this fully and for the long-term but it keeps getting kicked into the long grass as too difficult to handle.

 

[bramling]

Is there evidence to back up that statement, or is it something you’ve just made up?!

I’m guessing the latter.

It would be interesting, at my place for starters, to get some stats on the distribution of sickness “blow outs”. I’d say a safe bet that weekends days, as well as holiday periods, are significantly over-represented.

My place over Christmas just gone was absolutely shameful (and sadly I know many of them weren’t genuine, as people were openly boasting about it).

There simply isn’t an easy solution to this, apart from throwing enough money around to get people in, but I don’t think doing that is particularly responsible nor sustainable.

What hasn’t helped is the gradual increase in weekend service levels over the years, and no doubt a decline in passenger behaviour doesn’t help either (are things really worse on Saturday nights now than in the 1990s, certainly on my local route they are, but some places must always have had issues?).

 

[43066]

Which won't be happening as it is more expensive to do so and that would require sign off from the DfT/Treasury. So it's a stalemate and passengers suffer.

I doubt that’s the issue if they have committed Sundays? No doubt sickness will be a factor, as in most industries, as people still have to isolate if they test positive and there’s lots of it around. Also a lack of trained and productive traincrew due to Covid backlogs (they’re recruiting heavily).

I also didn’t realise RDW wasn’t sanctioned at Avanti as someone implied above?

EDIT: to clarify although isolation is no longer mandatory it is still recommended and many employers are following the government guidance in communications to their employees, mine included.

I have worked many Sundays, because that is what is on the roster. It is accepted and part of the norm.

As do many traincrew, to be fair. No problem with that, just so long as it’s what you signed up for!

 

[peter166]

That aside, how do you propose Avanti crew a train when the current pandemic is causing a really high spike in sickness? They don’t cancel trains for the sake of it!

I am sorry but I do think that they do cancel trains with little or no thought or planning. There doesn't seem to be much careful planning when 3 consecutive trains are cancelled leaving a 4 hour gap in the service & the last train of the day is also cancelled. Covid clearly has some impact on staffing but it is too easy to quote Covid as the reason/excuse when it is not clear that the available staffing is being managed in such a way in order to minimise the the huge disruption , inconvenience and delay to passengers.