Back to motorail!

[STRUDEL]

This was an excellent service in the past, allowing the driver to relax and enjoy the journey - and breakfast, rather than having to concentrate on safety on motorways. Cornwall was very useful (St Austel, I believe)

Now that motor fuel prices have risen so much, might this not now be an attractive option if re-introduced for journeys in excess of say 200 miles?:

 

[Anon Mouse]

I suspect the cost will be prohibitive to most motorists. Its a shame as it works perfectly ok and is reasonably affordable on the Continent (and indeed through the Chunnel)

 

[L&Y Robert]

Yes, agree. Don't like motorways, don't like driving (it's work, isn't it?) I've done Motorail - Calais to Bolognia overnight, and return 3 wks later. Superb. Through the Alps via Modane. We worked out beforehand it was cheaper than driving as well, all things taken into account. Fuel, of course, staying one night somewhere or other, wear and tear (especially tyres) and much more interesting than driving - all that scenery. What routes might be viable? Ever since that Italian expedition I have fantasised about a UK to the Continent fan of routes starting HERE at Banbury (in the middle of England) to, say, Spanish/French border, Switzerland, Germany, and of course, Bolognia. That's as well as some domestic routes, of course.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I wonder whether Motorail might be attractive for, say families who might want to go to some remote cottage in Scotland that couldn't be got to by train but could be driven to. This gives them the advantage of having the car to get around without the hassle of the long journey, having to make stops for comfort breaks, etc. so having "the best of both worlds". Also perhaps for family holidays in Cornwall.

 

[30907]

Judging by the way Motorail is thinning out across (western) Europe, I reckon there's little chance of a revival here. I think GW was the last, and their service must have run at a very marginal cost on the Night Riviera.

I speak as a satisfied but cost-conscious user of both French and German routes (Boulogne included, which dates me a bit!): it's very difficult to make a trip stack up financially (even with French tolls) unless you can replace two nights in a hotel with one on the train. And from the North of England a "long-sea" overnight ferry is usually just as convenient and cost-effective, and avoids our congested motorways.

Cheap flights a decade ago boosted fly-drive and knocked French and German motorail, and I don't think they've ever recovered, meaning that investment is difficult to justify (same applies to overnight services generally). Another problem is the increasing size of family cars which aren't always compatible with double-deck wagons.

Having said that, current demographics suggest there ought to be an increasing market from families and "Club 55" generation in particular - but I think it would need to be a bit up-market (ie sleeper with shower/loo and a reasonable restaurant car on longer runs).... I wonder

 

[JohnB57]

Now that motor fuel prices have risen so much, might this not now be an attractive option if re-introduced for journeys in excess of say 200 miles?

The cost of fuel for a 400 mile round trip in an average family diesel doing 10 miles per litre is still relatively cheap at around £60. Even factoring in tyre wear and servicing costs, it would be difficult to imagine that it would be anywhere near the cost of Motorail.

I suspect the cost will be prohibitive to most motorists. Its a shame as it works perfectly ok and is reasonably affordable on the Continent (and indeed through the Chunnel)

The cost of driving the equivalent mileage to the return tunnel crossings would be around £10.

 

[Anon Mouse]

The cost of driving the equivalent mileage to the return tunnel crossings would be around £10.

Still need to pay for transportation over the channel be it boat or train, of course thats the only reason why Le Shuttle is cost effective, the same distance by road without the pesky English Channel in the way would work out totally pointless and out of peoples pockets for a Motorail to work. I can't see also how a London to Scotland or London to Cornwall would be attractive today and for it to be made attractive it would bump the price up out of most peoples average means

 

[JohnB57]

Still need to pay for transportation over the channel be it boat or train, of course thats the only reason why Le Shuttle is cost effective, the same distance by road without the pesky English Channel in the way would work out totally pointless and out of peoples pockets for a Motorail to work. I can't see also how a London to Scotland or London to Cornwall would be attractive today and for it to be made attractive it would bump the price up out of most peoples average means

I agree, just making the point that in terms of distance, Le Shuttle works out quite expensive per mile, albeit for a cross (or sub) channel journey.

I think the market for car-on-train within the UK has gone forever and, as 30907 says, is not likely to have a long term future even on a huge landmass like continental Europe.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I have never seen mention of a motorrail service in the USA where I would have thought it might find some takers considering the epic distances - although rental cars seem to be readily available over there and combined with a flight, probably cheaper and quicker than motorrail.

 

[Yew]

I suppose if electric cars become more common it could be possible, however I'm not so sure of the economics of it currently.

Is the old motorail stock in any condition to be used?

 

[Anon Mouse]

I agree, just making the point that in terms of distance, Le Shuttle works out quite expensive per mile, albeit for a cross (or sub) channel journey.

I think the market for car-on-train within the UK has gone forever and, as 30907 says, is not likely to have a long term future even on a huge landmass like continental Europe.

Fair enough, thats a good point but captive market and all that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose if electric cars become more common it could be possible, however I'm not so sure of the economics of it currently.

Is the old motorail stock in any condition to be used?

The former FGW Motorail stock was a pretty modern affair. The ones dumped(?) at Rugby look in pretty good exterior nick (from a distance)

 

[DarloRich]

It is a nice idea but it will never happen. For one thing the infrastructure & rolling stock doesn't really exist now to support such operations.

 

[Holly]

I have never seen mention of a motorrail service in the USA where I would have thought it might find some takers considering the epic distances - although rental cars seem to be readily available over there and combined with a flight, probably cheaper and quicker than motorrail.

The only "autotrain" stateside runs between the Washington DC area and central Florida. Unfortunately there is a very high seasonality to the traffic.

The only viable economic possibility I see for Britain would be somewhere like Rugby to Lille or possibly Calais. This bridges both the channel and some of the most congested roads for the many passengers whose route could accommodate such a segment. New rolling stock would be essential.

 

[wellhouse]

I have never seen mention of a motorrail service in the USA where I would have thought it might find some takers considering the epic distances - although rental cars seem to be readily available over there and combined with a flight, probably cheaper and quicker than motorrail.

Amtrak offer one Motorail service between Washington DC and Orlando Florida.

http://www.amtrak.com/auto-train

 

[Anon Mouse]

It is a nice idea but it will never happen. For one thing the infrastructure & rolling stock doesn't really exist now to support such operations.

Is the infastructure not still in place at Paddington & Penzance? I can't imagine it to be too big an undertaking due to the former FGW Motorail stock loading on the side as opposed to the traditional entry at the rear of the stock? Saying that, I still think it will be a non-starter

 

[W.Tregurtha]

I used the Motorail between Paddington and Penzance. It was re-introduced in the late nineties at rather an attractive price and I found it to be busy. Then the fools started raising the prices and whaddya know - no-one used it much anymore. With dual carriageways almost all the way it's as easy and certainly cheaper to drive in my 2 litre diesel Golf when I want to go down to Newlyn to see my dear old mum.

 

[DarloRich]

Is the infastructure not still in place at Paddington & Penzance? I can't imagine it to be too big an undertaking due to the former FGW Motorail stock loading on the side as opposed to the traditional entry at the rear of the stock? Saying that, I still think it will be a non-starter

There is only the FGW kit, if it still exists. Other routes would need rebuilding from scratch.

EDIT - there is a ramp at Euston still on platform 17

 

[Anon Mouse]

There is only the FGW kit, if it still exists. Other routes would need rebuilding from scratch.

The stock still exists, its in a silding next to Rugby Station

The ramp at Carlisle and Waverly is (kind of) still there IIRC. There is an IC livered Motorail GUV at Longsight too

 

[DarloRich]

The stock still exists, its in a silding next to Rugby Station

not much of it and it is owned by Colas now! You need more than 5 wagons to make a viable service surely!

 

[Anon Mouse]

not much of it and it is owned by Colas now! You need more than 5 wagons to make a viable service surely!

well I did say I think its a non starter, no matter how nice it sounds!

plenty of redundant CARTIC's dumped around the network mind

 

[fgwrich]

Fair enough, thats a good point but captive market and all that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The former FGW Motorail stock was a pretty modern affair. The ones dumped(?) at Rugby look in pretty good exterior nick (from a distance)

I suppose if electric cars become more common it could be possible, however I'm not so sure of the economics of it currently.

Is the old motorail stock in any condition to be used?

They are. BR Used modified 'GUVs' on their Motorail services, whilst the FGW 'NVA's were a complete rebuild from the frames up of former 'GUVs', despite the Mk1 shape. After a handful of uses, including storing cars for operators of Long Marston - Motorail Logistics, they have now been taken on by Colas rail for hopefully these M&S / Supermarket services.

http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UK...38784_ZXDt55#!i=2072099634&k=tzXjstf&lb=1&s=A

 

[D1009]

Haven't WCRC got one of the GUVs? I heard it was used a year or two back for a private special to Inverness to convey their boss's limo.

 

[richw]

Yes, agree. Don't like motorways, don't like driving (it's work, isn't it?) I've done Motorail - Calais to Bolognia overnight, and return 3 wks later. Superb. Through the Alps via Modane. We worked out beforehand it was cheaper than driving as well, all things taken into account. Fuel, of course, staying one night somewhere or other, wear and tear (especially tyres) and much more interesting than driving - all that scenery. What routes might be viable? Ever since that Italian expedition I have fantasised about a UK to the Continent fan of routes starting HERE at Banbury (in the middle of England) to, say, Spanish/French border, Switzerland, Germany, and of course, Bolognia. That's as well as some domestic routes, of course.

and not forgetting, you cant sleep and drive at the same time, wake up fresh in your destination hopefully

 

[DiscoStu]

plenty of redundant CARTIC's dumped around the network mind

Haha - any profitability would be nullified by broken windscreen claims I reckon

 

[Anon Mouse]

Haha - any profitability would be nullified by broken windscreen claims I reckon

more than broken windscreens while passing through some dodgy areas, aint that why Motorail in BR days switched to covered GUV's?

 

[Hearadh]

They are. BR Used modified 'GUVs' on their Motorail services, whilst the FGW 'NVA's were a complete rebuild from the frames up of former 'GUVs', despite the Mk1 shape. After a handful of uses, including storing cars for operators of Long Marston - Motorail Logistics, they have now been taken on by Colas rail for hopefully these M&S / Supermarket services.

http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UK...38784_ZXDt55#!i=2072099634&k=tzXjstf&lb=1&s=A

I know these vehicles are reputed to be rebuilt GUVs but, are they? Why replace the bogies with the B4 variant? Why replace screw couplings with buck eyes (when GUVs were used on BR motorail services they had screw couplings)? Why replace the end of the vehicles with obviously welded up Mk1 corridor connections? Why fit Mk1 coaching stock roof and cant rail profile? Is there official documented proof that these vehicles are rebuilt GUVs and not converted BGs?

Incidentally, when a guard, I used to work the BR motorail services over the Highland main line.

 

[DiscoStu]

I remember the seating stock they used to use on the London to Stirling MotorRail in the 1980's .... 1st class Inter City liveried MK1's - best stock ever to grace the railways in my opinion!

 

[fgwrich]

Don't know why, perhaps they were cheaper at the time?

96602-96609 - NVA - Motorail van - Rebuilt from 961xx range.

Presumably the screw couplings were replaced to work with the Mk2s & Mk3s used on the Night Riviera at the time, and B4 Bogies to match the Mk2s.

 

[Goatboy]

I dont think it will ever work in the UK. It's hard enough to make the cost of the train add up versus a car when 2 people are travelling long distance and you just want 2 seats, let alone when you add the cost of carrying the car into the mix. If it costs more to get the train to Scotland before Motorail is considered then its going to be even more to put the car on it.

It used to work well when the average car was something you wouldn't want to drive hundreds of miles in one day but now even the most mundane of family hatchback is refined and comfortable enough to travel significant distance in a day.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I understand the Motorail that ran from Sheffield Midland to Newton Abbot was very popular