Bad design of Thameslink platform departure screens

[AM9]

As someone who is often getting southbound trains from Blackfriars I can assure you that getting on the wrong train certainly can spoil your day.

I didn't mention getting the wrong train southbound from Blackfriars. The discussion was about trains getting out of sequence when entering the core, i.e. SB at St Pancras and NB at Blackfriars, - in both cases there three more opportunities to alight and get on a following train, i.e. the one originally intended.

 

[BRX]

If - if (and I don't agree anyway) - there is a deep rooted aversion to these signs layout, might I offer one very simple suggestion. The two screens are mounted side by side in portrait format. Turn them 90 deg one above the other into landscape format. 1st train top, 2nd train below. No change in the actual info displayed, but some twiddling of layout to fit. If people can't work that one out, there is no hope.

That, in principle would be better. Everyone is used to signs with the first train at the top and subsequent trains listed below it.

Only potential issue would be if the bottom screen displayed the "second train" info in a very similar format to the 1st train info, and there were places on the platform where the bottom screen was visible but the top screen obscured. Because that's one of the things that happens at the moment: the left hand screen is obscured, so a glance along the platform reveals only the right hand screen and the info on that is taken to refer to the train at (or approaching) the platform. As per the second photo in my OP.

 

[AM9]

... Everyone is used to signs with the first train at the top and subsequent trains listed below it.

You can't speak for "everyone", - just yourself.

 

[BRX]

You can't speak for "everyone", - just yourself.

Are there other places on the UK network where the conventional arrangement doesn't apply?

The Thameslink stations are the only ones I can think of, where there is the unusual arrangement of two screens side by side, showing in detail a 1st & 2nd departure.

 

[D7666]

Are there other places on the UK network where the conventional arrangement doesn't apply?

The Thameslink stations are the only ones I can think of, where there is the unusual arrangement of two screens side by side, showing in detail a 1st & 2nd departure.

Maybe.

But then again, how many non Thameslink national rail stations are there that have any full detailed 1st train + 2nd train platform screens i.e. excluding the one train per line summary screens to compare with. I can not immediately think of any. Concourse screens yes, platforms, no.

So what is the "standard arrangement" you refer to ? And where ? And what defines it as "standard" ?

Perhaps this is the root of the problem, unaccustomed to platforms with 1st+2nd train screens, faced with something different, people nit pick the issue to pieces, where really there is no issue except their own unfamiliarity.

Thameslink does a number of things different. Auto open doors - not just release, but open - at core stations is an example. And I've read people whinging about that on days that are too hot / too cold etc. relative to the train temperature.

_


LU does things differently too. Traditionally as well as now. Does anyone think something like this

Earls Court - District Line

Old train indicators Earls Court station London 19-10-2018

www.flickr.com

at Earls Court would be clearer for Thameslink core stations

BUT

more importantly, does anyone here seriously say they read the left hand list of each pair as refering to the left platform and the right hand list of each pair to the right platform. Some of you are saying that is how you read the TL l/h and r/h paired screens.

AND

None of that tells which one is first out.

 

[AM9]

Maybe.

But then again, how many non Thameslink national rail stations are there that have any full detailed 1st train + 2nd train platform screens i.e. excluding the one train per line summary screens to compare with. I can not immediately think of any. Concourse screens yes, platforms, no.

So what is the "standard arrangement" you refer to ? And where ? And what defines it as "standard" ?

Perhaps this is the root of the problem, unaccustomed to platforms with 1st+2nd train screens, faced with something different, people nit pick the issue to pieces, where really there is no issue except their own unfamiliarity.

Thameslink does a number of things different. Auto open doors - not just release, but open - at core stations is an example. And I've read people whinging about that on days that are too hot / too cold etc. relative to the train temperature.

_


LU does things differently too. Traditionally as well as now. Does anyone think something like this

Earls Court - District Line

Old train indicators Earls Court station London 19-10-2018

www.flickr.com

at Earls Court would be clearer for Thameslink core stations

BUT

more importantly, does anyone here seriously say they read the left hand list of each pair as refering to the left platform and the right hand list of each pair to the right platform. Some of you are saying that is how you read the TL l/h and r/h paired screens.

AND

None of that tells which one is first out.

Actually, the examples given in post #41, are really poor examples to claim confusion. P2 is a through platform whereas P3 is a SB facing bay,, and anybody waiting for a train is unlikely to see much of a change there without it being quite obvious that the direction of travel is different from P2.
Indeed, the times shown are of trains that I have used when returning from Greenwich to St Albans, when the evening Rainham service is turned short at Kentish Town. There are usually a few passengers changing there from the ex-Rainham trains to MML slows or fasts, or the ECML route. The service is normally sequenced correctly and all trains carry front and side destnation indicators. In effect, I think that it is a non-issue for almost all passengers.

 

[BRX]

So what is the "standard arrangement" you refer to ? And where ? And what defines it as "standard" ?

By my observation, the standard arrangement is that if details of subsequent trains are shown, they are listed underneath the "first departure" details. They are listed top to bottom, not left to right.

It's defined as standard by the fact that it's what happens everywhere, except on certain Thameslink stations.

 

[arb]

Despite having read this thread, I was momentarily confused in a slightly different way at the weekend.

I arrived on the platform at Farringdon, knowing I wanted the second train. Fully aware of this discussion, I looked at both monitors, noted that the trains were displayed left-to-right, and therefore my train was displayed on the right-hand monitor, closest to the tracks. No problem at all for me so far.

With a few minutes to kill, I absent-mindedly wandered down to the end of the platform, and then turned back to face the other way. My train was now shown on the monitor furthest away from the tracks, which completely threw me (for a few seconds). Despite reading this thread, and knowing that they were shown left-to-right, I had subconsciously associated my train with the screen postition (i.e. nearest the track), not by left-to-right ordering, and was therefore momentarily confused when it "moved" to the other screen as I turned to face the other direction.

I'm not sure what this tells us. Just thought it was interesting anecdote, particularly after having just read the thread and thinking that I knew what to expect.

 

[43066]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but the arrangement can also look confusing at Blackfriars, as the second train to arrive at P2 can appear to relate to the train in the bay platform 3. Obviously if you’re even remotely familiar with the system it won’t cause confusion, but it looks odd, and I can imagine occasional users might be caught out.

EDIT: I see @BRX got there first!

Even if those for whom left to right is so alien, getting on a wrong route northbound at Blackfriars, or at St Pancras getting a wrong route southbound train happens it really isn't that much of a problem. There are three more stations at which to alight for a same platform change to the correct one. That's hardly going to spoil the day and still gets them to their destination at the same time as planned.

I’ve done it myself and (in theory) I should know what I’m doing! Nothing worse than expecting London Bridge, then seeing Elephant go past and realising it’s next stop East Croydon in about 40 minutes…

 

[D7666]

By my observation, the standard arrangement is that if details of subsequent trains are shown, they are listed underneath the "first departure" details. They are listed top to bottom, not left to right.

It's defined as standard by the fact that it's what happens everywhere, except on certain Thameslink stations

Where are these "everywheres" that have separate top to bottom 1st and 2nd or first and next train FULL details screens; give stations names please

The TL screens have next trains following 2nd train on their right hand screen tip to bottom below the 2nd train
Until you can do that I think you are describing something else i.e. one train per line summary screens.

 

[BRX]

Where are these "everywheres" that have separate top to bottom 1st and 2nd or first and next train FULL details screens; give stations names please

The TL screens have next trains following 2nd train on their right hand screen tip to bottom below the 2nd train
Until you can do that I think you are describing something else i.e. one train per line summary screens.

That's part of the point - the standard arrangement does not attempt to give full details for the 2nd train. The fact that the Thameslink screens try to do this on the over-platform displays is what has generated the confusing result.

As I said earlier in the thread, if they want to provide this info I think it should be displayed in a different location. For example, at the back of the platform on a screen parallel to the tracks.

Display screens that hang above the platform, mounted perpendicular to the tracks, bring with them quite a specific expectation about what info is displayed. This is based on what people are used to seeing on them, which is primarily the details of the next train to depart from that platform. That's standard throughout the network and has been for decades. It's this location that you look at if you are trying to quickly determine whether the train standing at a platform is the one you need. And it's a decision that often needs to be made quickly because the train might be about to depart. Therefore I think this specific location should be reserved for that specific piece of information. By deviating from this standard, Thameslink cause confusion. It doesn't matter whether it confuses you or me; all that matters is whether it confuses a non negligible proportion of passengers, and to me it looks like it definitely does.

 

[Mike395]

Personally - I quite like the arrangement as-is, but I take the point that it can be confusing read left-to-right when the right screen is nearer the platform.

One quick win might be to highlight in some way - perhaps with a green banner/border - trains approaching/in the platform? That way if you're dashing for a train there's a much clearer visual cue as to which train it is.

 

[D7666]

I give up.

All that seems to be happening here is forwarding ideas that will only remove or reduce either train information - which is the very last thing anyone should be doing.

Just because something is done different elsewhere does not make that something better => just because nowhere details of the 2nd train given is no reason to stop or reduce this on TL.

In plain English. WT* is the issue people are having with giving details of the 2nd train ?

I can see the Luddite approach is still in vogue.

 

[HSTEd]

I give up.

All that seems to be happening here is forwarding ideas that will only remove or reduce either train information - which is the very last thing anyone should be doing.

Just because something is done different elsewhere does not make that something better => just because nowhere details of the 2nd train given is no reason to stop or reduce this on TL.

In plain English. WT* is the issue people are having with giving details of the 2nd train ?

I can see the Luddite approach is still in vogue.

Because the use of non standard information formatting will inevitably confuse passengers.

There is a well-established format for platform displays, and this does not comply with it.
The design adopted is obviously confusing as it, again, violates norms on the positioning of displays.

The display closest to the train, which traditionally would displays information for that train, does not in this instance.

 

[43066]

I give up.

All that seems to be happening here is forwarding ideas that will only remove or reduce either train information - which is the very last thing anyone should be doing.

Just because something is done different elsewhere does not make that something better => just because nowhere details of the 2nd train given is no reason to stop or reduce this on TL.

In plain English. WT* is the issue people are having with giving details of the 2nd train ?

I can see the Luddite approach is still in vogue.

I don’t see why you think that?

Quite a few people have have identified issues with the set up chosen for the TL core - nothing to do with Luddism. Too much information isn’t necessarily helpful either, sometimes less is more.

 

[BRX]

Too much information isn’t necessarily helpful either, sometimes less is more.

Plus there's the option simply to put the additional information on a screen located elsewhere, so that it's still available but doesn't cause confusion.

 

[D7666]

50 years ago there was a well established format known as finger boards. A warm body used to change them ahead of each train. Then along came assorted techno displays up to today. The info changed (more of it), the layouts changed, everything changed. If that step was not taken. we'd still have finger boards now.

It is called progress. Does any one really think finger boards gave out more useful info, or that they were confused by their replacement displays.

Just because there is a so called well established format does not make it the best.

ALL that has happened with TL core platform is instead of one screen with first train's details + a few single lines of next trains, there are two side by side screens with left showing first train details and right showing 2nd train details + a few single lines of next trains.

What is so difficult ? Why does anybody want to reduce or hide or REMOVE info from passengers - because that is the only outcome of the negativity here.

5000 TL journies since those displays came into use do not tell me there is something wrong - it tells me it is one of the things they have got right.

 

[duffield]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but the arrangement can also look confusing at Blackfriars, as the second train to arrive at P2 can appear to relate to the train in the bay platform 3. Obviously if you’re even remotely familiar with the system it won’t cause confusion, but it looks odd, and I can imagine occasional users might be caught out.

EDIT: I see @BRX got there first!



I’ve done it myself and (in theory) I should know what I’m doing! Nothing worse than expecting London Bridge, then seeing Elephant go past and realising it’s next stop East Croydon in about 40 minutes…

Going southbound at St. Pancras, if, when coming down the stairs, there is already a train at the platform with the doors open, just about to leave, you might as well get on if without checking the screens, as I do, and then if it's the wrong service, change at Blackfriars - which, being sited over the river, is a more agreeable place to spend a few minutes than the St. Pancras Thameslink platforms.

 

[Jimini]

Going southbound at St. Pancras, if, when coming down the stairs, there is already a train at the platform with the doors open, just about to leave, you might as well get on if without checking the screens, as I do, and then if it's the wrong service, change at Blackfriars - which, being sited over the river, is a more agreeable place to spend a few minutes than the St. Pancras Thameslink platforms.

Depends on the time of day / how much you want a seat. At St. Pancras you're normally golden; by the time you've passed through The City things can be quite different!

 

[duffield]

Depends on the time of day / how much you want a seat. At St. Pancras you're normally golden; by the time you've passed through The City things can be quite different!

Good point, I usually travel off peak or contra-flow on quieter days of the week, so it's not normally an issue for me but would be for others.

 

[AM9]

Good point, I usually travel off peak or contra-flow on quieter days of the week, so it's not normally an issue for me but would be for others.

But even then, there's opportunity to change at Farringdon or even City. This really is a problem that rarely exists and when it does occur, is easy for the passenger to fix with minimal or no impact on the time of arrival at the destination. Don't forget, TL trains are good for showing their destination on a front display, and a side display of thefron car. Most passengers in the core (a guess, but I would challenge anybody here to prove otherwise), have no problems with the signage in the TL core, and the additional information is useful for those using the core travelling in along one route, then exiting on the opposite side of London where there is no direct service covering the whole of the journey.

 

[andrewgsavage]

The screens at Gatwick are ordered 2nd 1st platform.

 

[BRX]

The screens at Gatwick are ordered 2nd 1st platform.

Well, that's interesting!

 

[talldave]

The screens at Gatwick are ordered 2nd 1st platform.

And the ones behind are 1st 2nd?

If so, that's perfect for my brain!

 

[Bald Rick]

The screens at Gatwick are ordered 2nd 1st platform.

So are half of those in in the Thameslink core!

 

[Ridgeblog]

That is just confusing, why do they not do it like other stations, where you just have a list of trains coming one after another and then the platform they are stopping at.

 

[AM9]

That is just confusing, why do they not do it like other stations, where you just have a list of trains coming one after another and then the platform they are stopping at.

You may not have noticed, but at each staion in the TL core, all the trains passing through the core in each direction stop at the same platform. Presumably you did notice though that the core has one of the most intensive services per track on National Rail, with trains as frequent as every 2 minutes. This requires passengers to read the indicators and get themselves ready to board.
Even if they forget or are too impatient to read them carefully enough,at three of the four core stations, they have another chance centre to read the destination of the train that they have actually boarded, and if it was the wrong on, step off the train and wait for the next appropriate train. They will get to the same Thameslink destination at the same time on the same train as they would have done if they had not made the earlier mistake. There can't be many (any?) other busy line situations as forgiving of mistakes as that on the railway.

 

[Ridgeblog]

You may not have noticed, but at each staion in the TL core, all the trains passing through the core in each direction stop at the same platform. Presumably you did notice though that the core has one of the most intensive services per track on National Rail, with trains as frequent as every 2 minutes. This requires passengers to read the indicators and get themselves ready to board.
Even if they forget or are too impatient to read them carefully enough,at three of the four core stations, they have another chance centre to read the destination of the train that they have actually boarded, and if it was the wrong on, step off the train and wait for the next appropriate train. They will get to the same Thameslink destination at the same time on the same train as they would have done if they had not made the earlier mistake. There can't be many (any?) other busy line situations as forgiving of mistakes as that on the railway.

OK then, thanks, that seems fair to me. I only travelled a few times on this network. I think I like these screens a lot more now.

 

[Mark J]

I think the departure screens at Thameslink core stations such as Blackfriars are badly designed and easily cause confusion.

View attachment 158539

The left-hand screen shows the 1st (or currently-in-the-platform) train and the right hand screen the subsequent trains.

That might seem logical because we read from left to right, and yes the screens are marked "1st train" and "2nd train".

The problem is that it's very easy for your eye to go first to the screen closest to the train, and read this as referring to the train that's about to arrive or about to depart - especially if you're in a hurry. I do it sometimes (despite being a regular user) and I know other people do it too.

It's exacerbated if you're looking from further away because then it's more likely the left-hand screen is obscured by something in which case the right-hand one becomes the visible one. Below is an example at London Bridge.

View attachment 158541

This problem exists on any platform where you are looking in the direction of travel of the trains. Looking in the other direction, it's reversed because then the "1st train" screen is the one closest to the train. This actually makes it harder to train one's brain to look at the right screen automatically.

By the way there's another variation of the problem at platform 2 at Blackfriars because the platform area is shared with platform 3. Here, it's easy to misread the paired screens such that one side relates to platform 2 and the other to platform 3 (whichever direction you're looking in).

Don't think I've noticed this paired-screen arrangement elsewhere on the network.

You can mimic those screen layouts on the Nextrain timetable app, if you so wish.