Bank refuses chargeback because Virgin Trains let me down

[Kenny888]

Bank refuses chargeback because Virgin Train claims the service they offer is price comparison for tickets.

I bought a rail and sail ticket from Virgin Trains: the ferry was cancelled and the next one wasn’t due for two days and so we never arrived at our destination. Irish ferries refused to refund us as they said Virgin Trains were responsible as the retailer and Virgin Trains refused as well as they blamed Irish ferries. Even the transport focus was unable to help.

So, having tried everything to resolve the issue I contacted my bank to issue a chargeback and at first, they agreed but today I received a final response from them arguing that Virgin Trains carried out the service I paid them for: the service of allowing me to choose a rail and sail ticket.

I called my bank to query this as I thought Virgin Trains as the retailer had the responsibility to get me to my destination. Also, if they’re not responsibility for getting me to my destination then who exactly is?

Not sure where to go to here?

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/tickets/further-afield/ferries

 

[najaB]

When did this happen and did you travel at all?

 

[sheff1]

The title of the thread says Virgin let you down, but the text suggests an Irish Ferries service was cancelled.

The EU Regulations covering ferry travel are here:
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/ship/index_en.htm

Without knowing specific details of your planned journey and what happened where and when, it is not possible to say if, or to what extent, the regulations apply to your case.

 

[maniacmartin]

How much did the ticket cost, and did you pay by debit card, or instead by credit card?

 

[island]

You can appeal the bank's decision to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

[gray1404]

Take your back to the financial service ombudsman.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I would expect that the legal status of the transaction was that VT were acting as agents for Irish Ferries, although the website link provides no clues. As such, it is up to Irish Ferries to deliver what you pay for so you might want to look at their terms and conditions of passage. It is, however, entirely possible that these give no particular requirement to provide passage within any particular timescale and also disclaim liability for consequential losses. So I suspect there maybe very little to be done, legally, on this one; just something to bear in mind if you ever think of using Irish Ferries again.

 

[sheff1]

As such, it is up to Irish Ferries to deliver what you pay for so you might want to look at their terms and conditions of passage. It is, however, entirely possible that these give no particular requirement to provide passage within any particular timescale and also disclaim liability for consequential losses. So I suspect there maybe very little to be done, legally, on this one.

Irish Ferries are bound by the regulations I linked to in post #3. *

* unless they have an exemption, which I am not aware of and would find extremely surprising

 

[najaB]

Unless they have an exemption, which I am not aware of and would find extremely surprising.

SailRail tickets are an odd case since, as far as I can tell, the contract is with the rail rather than ferry company. The ferry company acts as a supplier to the train company.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would be interested to hear how this plays out. I don't know the answer.

I would definitely be taking the bank to the FOS though.

 

[Greenback]

I don't know the answer either, but I suspect that the passenger's contract is with the retailer, and that should the supplier ot the retailer fail, that is a matter for them to sort out between them.

I'm not a lawyer and I could easily be totally wrong about this. I'd like to hear the outcome if you go to the FOS.

 

[jumble]

I don't know the answer either, but I suspect that the passenger's contract is with the retailer, and that should the supplier ot the retailer fail, that is a matter for them to sort out between them.

I'm not a lawyer and I could easily be totally wrong about this. I'd like to hear the outcome if you go to the FOS.

I almost could not believe the Banks reasoning as it strikes me that it was probably written by someone in an outsourced call center who didn't think a lot about how ludicrous his statement would sound.
To me this is a classic example of customer services sometimes not having a clue as we debated at length in a previous thread and if this were me I would be emailing the Banks CEO so someone with a little bit of brains would look at your situation where they took your money but did not deliver the service.

 

[Bookd]

My guess would be that the bank's duty is done when you receive the ticket that you paid for. If the ferry was delayed or cancelled due to weather conditions then their conditions may well say words to the effect of 'hard luck' - no doubt they would have taken you there eventually, even days late.

 

[najaB]

If the ferry was delayed or cancelled due to weather conditions then their conditions may well say words to the effect of 'hard luck' - no doubt they would have taken you there eventually, even days late.

True. However, the NRCoT say that a refund is due if you don't travel due to a cancellation or delay. And Virgin have refused the refund, hence they are in breach of the T&Cs governing the contract.

 

[Agent_c]

Small claims court time!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

True. However, the NRCoT say that a refund is due if you don't travel due to a cancellation or delay. And Virgin have refused the refund, hence they are in breach of the T&Cs governing the contract.

But the NRCOT also say that the contract is with the supplier of the other transport services, and not the retailer (my bold):

4.4 Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services.

Therefore the OP has a contract with Irish Ferries, who I would say are responsible for any refund etc.

What the actual amount of the refund is, and how it is calculated, is of course a different matter.

 

[northwichcat]

Did you travel on a rail service and then find your ferry was cancelled or did you not travel at all?

 

[northwichcat]

But the NRCOT also say that the contract is with the supplier of the other transport services, and not the retailer (my bold):

Does that apply for RailSail though? RailSail is very different to PlusBus or a Metrolink or London Underground add-on.

On the Irish Ferries SailRail FAQs

I'm afraid that our system currently caters for trips originating in Ireland only. If your journey starts in the UK, please visit www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/SailRail/ or call 08709 000 773 for information and assistance.

Every effort is made to maintain advertised schedules but sailing times can sometimes be disrupted due to technical, operational or weather related issues. However, if your sailing is cancelled we will do everything possible to transfer you onto the next available Irish Ferries sailing. When making your booking please provide us with your mobile phone number and we will endeavour to make contact with you in the event of any major disruption. Please note that no refund is applicable if due to adverse weather conditions, the Dublin Swift is cancelled and travel is undertaken on our cruise ferry service.

http://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/sail-rail/rail-to-Britain/FAQ/

 

[najaB]

But the NRCOT also say that the contract is with the supplier of the other transport services, and not the retailer (my bold)

Plusbus is different to a SailRail ticket. Plusbus is an optional add-on to a rail fare, where SailRail is a combined fare for transportation between two named railway destinations. As such, to me at least, the cancellation rights of the NRCoT apply to SailRail tickets.

It would be interesting to know what, if any, use Kenny888 made of the ticket and when he became aware that the ferry would not be sailing.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Does that apply for RailSail though? RailSail is very different to PlusBus or a Metrolink or London Underground add-on.

It does not distinguish between different types of services, it just says that you ticket may entitle you to goods or services from another party, in which case it is evidence of a contract between you and that other party. Travelling by Ferry is a service from another party.

NRCOT also says, in the compensation and refunds section:

If you need to make a claim against a Train Company or Rail Service Provider for personal injury or any loss or damage to property, or a claim or complaint arising under the Passenger’s Charter or these Conditions, you should write to the relevant Train Company or Rail Service Provider in the first instance.

Please note that a Train Company is not responsible for:
(a) another Train Company not running any trains;
(b) any losses that occur while you are travelling in any other Train Company’s trains;
(c) another party not providing goods or services; and
(d) any losses that occur while you are using those other goods or services.

Again, my bold. This would indicate that the TOC is not responsible for Irish Ferries not providing their service.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Plusbus is different to a SailRail ticket. Plusbus is an optional add-on to a rail fare, where SailRail is a combined fare for transportation between two named railway destinations. As such, to me at least, the cancellation rights of the NRCoT apply to SailRail tickets.

It would be interesting to know what, if any, use Kenny888 made of the ticket and when he became aware that the ferry would not be sailing.

But the NRCOT does not rule out ferries. It says that your ticket may entitle you to goods or services from another party. Irish ferries is another party. It does not rule ferries out. It just notes a bus service as an example, but the wording doesn't limit it to bus services. It doesn't mention anything about a difference between an optional add-on or inclusive ticket either. It just merely states that "Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party". A sail rail ticket can be classed as "some tickets" in the same way as any other ticket add-on or inclusive ticket.

 

[najaB]

Travelling by Ferry is a service from another party.

Except that, for purposes of SailRail, the ferry is a train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Except that, for purposes of SailRail, the ferry is a train.

...for operational convenience. I haven't seen anything to suggest that the NRCoT covers ferry travel.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Except that, for purposes of SailRail, the ferry is a train.

Well so is the bus service to Pickering in that case. It doesn't mean Virgin Trains is responsible for Transdev not providing the advertised bus service.

The NRCOT does not distinguish between add-on or inclusive tickets - it just says that if YOUR TICKET - whatever type of ticket that may be - includes services provided by another party - whoever or whatever that may be - then you have a contract with that other party and the train company is not liable for them not providing their services.

 

[najaB]

...for operational convenience. I haven't seen anything to suggest that the NRCoT covers ferry travel.

I agree that there's nothing definitive either way, but it seems odd that I can refund a ticket between London and Cork if the train to Holyhead is cancelled and if the Train from Dublin to Cork is cancelled, but for some reason I'm not able to refund it if the ferry is cancelled. Or would you say that Irish Rail is 'another supplier'?

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree that there's nothing definitive either way, but it seems odd that I can refund a ticket between London and Cork if the train to Holyhead is cancelled and if the Train from Dublin to Cork is cancelled, but for some reason I'm not able to refund it if the ferry is cancelled. Or would you say that Irish Rail is 'another supplier'?

Irish Rail would be "another supplier" by my reading as the NRCoT covers National Rail. Must say I've never come across a case like this ever so I'm not aware of any precedent which would shed any light. At the moment it's anyone's guess.

 

[sheff1]

Going back to my previous post, Irish Ferries' website confirms that EU REGULATION No 1177/2010 does form part of their T&Cs. They do not include any caveat regarding SailRail tickets.

Of course, until the OP comes back with more information, we do not know where and when they abandoned their journey and what action(s), if any, they took at that time.

 

[najaB]

Well so is the bus service to Pickering in that case. It doesn't mean Virgin Trains is responsible for Transdev not providing the advertised bus service.

I would say that they are. The passenger has paid the defined fare to be conveyed between the points listed on the ticket. If they aren't able to travel then they can get a refund on their ticket.

 

[najaB]

Going back to my previous post, Irish Ferries' website confirms that EU REGULATION No 1177/2010 does form part of their T&Cs. They do not include any caveat regarding SailRail tickets.

Indeed they do not. However, the passenger has paid a TOC the relevant fare for transportation between the two points listed on their ticket. If they aren't able to make the journey they want to make they are entitled to a refund based on the ticket price paid. Or are you suggesting that they need to apply for separate refunds for the rail and ferry components of the ticket? If so, how much is each company liable for?

 

[northwichcat]

It does not distinguish between different types of services, it just says that you ticket may entitle you to goods or services from another party, in which case it is evidence of a contract between you and that other party. Travelling by Ferry is a service from another party.

NRCOT also says, in the compensation and refunds section:



Again, my bold. This would indicate that the TOC is not responsible for Irish Ferries not providing their service.

Virgin give non-transport examples as third party services on their website

Third party services

You can buy third party products and services, other than train tickets via the Booking Service. When you make such a booking via the Booking Service, and your preferred product or service is available, the contract for such third party services (for example, travel insurance or hotel bookings) will be between the relevant supplier and you. We are not a party to any such contractual relationship and you should read the terms and conditions applicable to such third party services carefully. Each third party product and service has its own price independent of any other products or services booked at the same time. We do not sell, organise, or arrange any packages.

But they also say

Compensation and Refunds for delayed or cancelled journeys

If the service on which you have booked to travel is cancelled or severely disrupted you may be entitled to compensation or a refund. If the train company allows us to issue this refund on their behalf, then we shall do so. If not, we will provide you with the contact details of the relevant train company and you will need to make a claim directly with the train company concerned. Unfortunately we are not permitted to issue compensation or refund tickets for cancelled/disrupted journeys unless the relevant train company gives us permission to do so.

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/terms-conditions

So perhaps the answer is to get Irish Ferries to agree that a refund is due and that Virgin can issue one or vice versa?