Barrier staff at Leeds station

[redreni]

Further to these threads:

LNER missed connection with two separate tickets

I’m planning to take the train from Edinburgh to London King’s Cross next month and bought an advance single ticket for the journey. In order to get to Edinburgh I need to take a local ScotRail train. I absent mindedly just bought a ticket from Edinburgh to London rather than buying a single...

www.railforums.co.uk

Are you entitled to keeping your ticket when exiting barriered stations?

I guess the title is self-explanatory :) My employer has recently started strongly encouraging us to keep receipts and the actual tickets when processing expenses claims. If I’m claiming a ticket, keeping them (and scanning after use) is mandatory.

www.railforums.co.uk

I was today travelling from Halifax to London Kings Cross via Leeds on separate paper tickets:

Ticket 1: Halifax to Leeds (Advance single)
Ticket 2: Leeds to Wakefield (Advance single)
Ticket 3: Wakefield to Kings Cross (Advance single).

I bought these tickets as part of a booking that also included an outbound leg starting at London Underground Zones 1-4 and, consequently, all the tickets in the booking were issued on CCST paper stock via TOD.

I arrived at Leeds a few minutes late but still had about 15 minutes before my connecting train to London. I wished to pass through the barrier to buy a sandwich from the M&S on the station concourse. I asked politely to be let through the barrier, showing my Halifax to Leeds ticket. The member of staff asked me why I wanted to keep my ticket. I said it was in case I needed to submit a delay repay claim as I was part way through a through journey from Halifax to London. He peered at my ticket and asked when I'd been delayed. I explained that I hadn't, but it remained to be seen what time I would arrive in London and if I was delayed, I would need to submit all the tickets for my through journey along with my claim. The chap said "they won't give you anything back on this ticket - it's used" referring to the Halifax to Leeds ticket. I said it's part of a set of split tickets I'm using for a journey I haven't finished yet, but he again said - very sternly this time - "it's used". By this point he was becoming quite hostile in his manner and showing no signs of letting me through. I didn't really know what to say so I just repeated "if I am delayed, I will want to submit all my tickets, what LNER then does with them is up to them rather than you, fortunately".

That last comment was, perhaps, a little unnecessary but the chap was giving me unsolicited advice that I knew to be wrong about a hypothetical delay repay claim. He then lectured me at great length about the number of courses about railway ticketing he had been on and asked me how many I had been on. I pointed out that I wasn't claiming to know everything there is to know about ticketing, I was simply asserting that in this specific circumstance I needed to retain all my tickets in case I was delayed and I was confident I was correct on that one specific point, which I had checked into. He then said he doesn't come to my workplace and tell me how to do my job so he'd appreciate it if I didn't do it to him, which kind of left me speechless as I had no desire to tell him how to do his job, I just wanted to buy a sandwich without my ticket being swallowed by the barrier.

Eventually he let me through. It was fortunate that there was no queue at M&S otherwise the delay at the ticket barrier would have put me under some time pressure to get my sandwich before making my connection. In the end I made it to Kings Cross about 5 minutes late so there was no delay repay claim, but I just wanted to check:

1. If I am travelling on split Advance tickets (each with a "no break of journey" restriction) from Halifax to London via Leeds and Leeds is one of the split points, am I allowed to break my journey at Leeds and still have it count as one journey?

2. Does anyone know which company employs the staff on the ticket barriers at Leeds station?

3. Is there anything in particular people would recommend saying when wanting to pass through a ticket barrier without surrendering your ticket?

On the break of journey point, I'm assuming you can't have your cake and eat it by gaining the right to break your journey at a station by splitting tickets there while also reserving the right to claim delay repay against the combined value of all the tickets you've used that day? Or can you?

In this case I wasn't, in fact, breaking my journey at Leeds - I was using the station facilities namely the M&S on the concourse - but I wondered if the member of staff might have thought that if I exited through his gateline at Leeds then that would break the through journey? If he'd asked I could have shown him my Leeds to Wakefield ticket which had a departure time printed on it which was less than 15 minutes away, which I would have thought should have been sufficient to satisfy him it was unlikely that I was breaking my journey. Is there any limit, however, to how long a layover you can have at a station and still be considered to be making a through journey rather than two journeys? And conversely, if you leave the station entirely - however briefly - does that always constitute a break of journey even if you've still caught the first available connecting train to continue your through journey?

 

[hkstudent]

Further to these threads:

LNER missed connection with two separate tickets

I’m planning to take the train from Edinburgh to London King’s Cross next month and bought an advance single ticket for the journey. In order to get to Edinburgh I need to take a local ScotRail train. I absent mindedly just bought a ticket from Edinburgh to London rather than buying a single...

www.railforums.co.uk

Are you entitled to keeping your ticket when exiting barriered stations?

I guess the title is self-explanatory :) My employer has recently started strongly encouraging us to keep receipts and the actual tickets when processing expenses claims. If I’m claiming a ticket, keeping them (and scanning after use) is mandatory.

www.railforums.co.uk

I was today travelling from Halifax to London Kings Cross via Leeds on separate paper tickets:

Ticket 1: Halifax to Leeds (Advance single)
Ticket 2: Leeds to Wakefield (Advance single)
Ticket 3: Wakefield to Kings Cross (Advance single).

I bought these tickets as part of a booking that also included an outbound leg starting at London Underground Zones 1-4 and, consequently, all the tickets in the booking were issued on CCST paper stock via TOD.

I arrived at Leeds a few minutes late but still had about 15 minutes before my connecting train to London. I wished to pass through the barrier to buy a sandwich from the M&S on the station concourse. I asked politely to be let through the barrier, showing my Halifax to Leeds ticket. The member of staff asked me why I wanted to keep my ticket. I said it was in case I needed to submit a delay repay claim as I was part way through a through journey from Halifax to London. He peered at my ticket and asked when I'd been delayed. I explained that I hadn't, but it remained to be seen what time I would arrive in London and if I was delayed, I would need to submit all the tickets for my through journey along with my claim. The chap said "they won't give you anything back on this ticket - it's used" referring to the Halifax to Leeds ticket. I said it's part of a set of split tickets I'm using for a journey I haven't finished yet, but he again said - very sternly this time - "it's used". By this point he was becoming quite hostile in his manner and showing no signs of letting me through. I didn't really know what to say so I just repeated "if I am delayed, I will want to submit all my tickets, what LNER then does with them is up to them rather than you, fortunately".

That last comment was, perhaps, a little unnecessary but the chap was giving me unsolicited advice that I knew to be wrong about a hypothetical delay repay claim. He then lectured me at great length about the number of courses about railway ticketing he had been on and asked me how many I had been on. I pointed out that I wasn't claiming to know everything there is to know about ticketing, I was simply asserting that in this specific circumstance I needed to retain all my tickets in case I was delayed and I was confident I was correct on that one specific point, which I had checked into. He then said he doesn't come to my workplace and tell me how to do my job so he'd appreciate it if I didn't do it to him, which kind of left me speechless as I had no desire to tell him how to do his job, I just wanted to buy a sandwich without my ticket being swallowed by the barrier.

Eventually he let me through. It was fortunate that there was no queue at M&S otherwise the delay at the ticket barrier would have put me under some time pressure to get my sandwich before making my connection. In the end I made it to Kings Cross about 5 minutes late so there was no delay repay claim, but I just wanted to check:

1. If I am travelling on split Advance tickets (each with a "no break of journey" restriction) from Halifax to London via Leeds and Leeds is one of the split points, am I allowed to break my journey at Leeds and still have it count as one journey?

2. Does anyone know which company employs the staff on the ticket barriers at Leeds station?

3. Is there anything in particular people would recommend saying when wanting to pass through a ticket barrier without surrendering your ticket?

On the break of journey point, I'm assuming you can't have your cake and eat it by gaining the right to break your journey at a station by splitting tickets there while also reserving the right to claim delay repay against the combined value of all the tickets you've used that day? Or can you?

In this case I wasn't, in fact, breaking my journey at Leeds - I was using the station facilities namely the M&S on the concourse - but I wondered if the member of staff might have thought that if I exited through his gateline at Leeds then that would break the through journey? If he'd asked I could have shown him my Leeds to Wakefield ticket which had a departure time printed on it which was less than 15 minutes away, which I would have thought should have been sufficient to satisfy him it was unlikely that I was breaking my journey. Is there any limit, however, to how long a layover you can have at a station and still be considered to be making a through journey rather than two journeys? And conversely, if you leave the station entirely - however briefly - does that always constitute a break of journey even if you've still caught the first available connecting train to continue your through journey?

1. Accessing facilities within the station building is not a break of journey even on one Advance ticket. BUT, with Northern's staff's hard attitude towards "fare evasion" or "dodgy behaviour", you would unlikely have a chance to pass through.
2. Northern is the main operator to provide staff, though the station is managed by Network Rail.
3. It's down to the attitude of a specific staff, and hard to have any suggestions.

I never had a good experience at the main gateline of Leeds Station while using "complex" tickets or break of journey, when I did my transport degree there. Northern is not particularly customer-friendly at gateline operations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not break of journey if you have separate tickets.

Take a photo of the ticket and then shove it in the barrier. No TOC asks for physical tickets for a delay repay claim. (That only wouldn't work for a Transport UK TOC who ask for it to be defaced, though TBH you could Photoshop deface it and they'd not know).

Or use e-tickets and the problem can't occur.

 

[Watershed]

I arrived at Leeds a few minutes late but still had about 15 minutes before my connecting train to London. I wished to pass through the barrier to buy a sandwich from the M&S on the station concourse. I asked politely to be let through the barrier, showing my Halifax to Leeds ticket. The member of staff asked me why I wanted to keep my ticket. I said it was in case I needed to submit a delay repay claim as I was part way through a through journey from Halifax to London. He peered at my ticket and asked when I'd been delayed. I explained that I hadn't, but it remained to be seen what time I would arrive in London and if I was delayed, I would need to submit all the tickets for my through journey along with my claim. The chap said "they won't give you anything back on this ticket - it's used" referring to the Halifax to Leeds ticket. I said it's part of a set of split tickets I'm using for a journey I haven't finished yet, but he again said - very sternly this time - "it's used". By this point he was becoming quite hostile in his manner and showing no signs of letting me through. I didn't really know what to say so I just repeated "if I am delayed, I will want to submit all my tickets, what LNER then does with them is up to them rather than you, fortunately".

That last comment was, perhaps, a little unnecessary but the chap was giving me unsolicited advice that I knew to be wrong about a hypothetical delay repay claim. He then lectured me at great length about the number of courses about railway ticketing he had been on and asked me how many I had been on. I pointed out that I wasn't claiming to know everything there is to know about ticketing, I was simply asserting that in this specific circumstance I needed to retain all my tickets in case I was delayed and I was confident I was correct on that one specific point, which I had checked into. He then said he doesn't come to my workplace and tell me how to do my job so he'd appreciate it if I didn't do it to him, which kind of left me speechless as I had no desire to tell him how to do his job, I just wanted to buy a sandwich without my ticket being swallowed by the barrier.

I'd certainly be complaining to Northern about the comments made by the member of staff. Regardless of whether or not you were right (you were), that is no way to speak to customers. Sadly there's a disproportionate minority of staff who have this sort of attitude, getting their back up at anyone who suggests they might not necessarily be correct. They have the idea that just because they've done their job for X years, that must necessarily mean they know everything there is to know.

Of course that's not true; some situations will only arise infrequently and the rules regarding railway ticketing are highly complex. Despite attending numerous courses, I'd be highly surprised if the member of staff had any understanding of the Routeing Guide, for instance! Unfortunately people like that are just too closed-minded to have the humility to accept they may sometimes be wrong.

1. If I am travelling on split Advance tickets (each with a "no break of journey" restriction) from Halifax to London via Leeds and Leeds is one of the split points, am I allowed to break my journey at Leeds and still have it count as one journey?

Yes. The break of journey restriction applies to each individual ticket, rather than the journey as a whole. You could, after all, be travelling onwards on a ticket where break of journey is permitted - or indeed you could be exiting the barriers to make use of the station facilities, which would not constitute a break of journey at all.

2. Does anyone know which company employs the staff on the ticket barriers at Leeds station?

Northern. Though they subcontract many revenue protection roles to the likes of Carlisle Security, so it's possible you dealt with someone employed by a contractor.

3. Is there anything in particular people would recommend saying when wanting to pass through a ticket barrier without surrendering your ticket?

I'd probably just say I needed to keep it for expenses. Less likely to cause problems - in fact, I've never had it refused.

Of course the other option in the circumstances would be to take a picture of the tickets before starting your journey. That way it doesn't matter what happens with them down the line.

On the break of journey point, I'm assuming you can't have your cake and eat it by gaining the right to break your journey at a station by splitting tickets there while also reserving the right to claim delay repay against the combined value of all the tickets you've used that day? Or can you?

You can. Splitting gives you additional rights as well as introducing some restrictions; you gain the right to break your journey at the split point (since, by definition, you could just show your tickets to/from the split point to get through the barrier) whilst on the other hand you are (in most circumstances) restricted to travelling via the split point.

The NRCoT gives you the right to have your separate tickets considered as one journey. It's not an obligation and it's up to you whether you wish to exercise this right. The rail industry is more than happy to 'have its cake and eat it' on other matters (e.g. the "Published Timetable of the Day"), so I see no reason why passengers can't do the same.

In this case I wasn't, in fact, breaking my journey at Leeds - I was using the station facilities namely the M&S on the concourse - but I wondered if the member of staff might have thought that if I exited through his gateline at Leeds then that would break the through journey? If he'd asked I could have shown him my Leeds to Wakefield ticket which had a departure time printed on it which was less than 15 minutes away, which I would have thought should have been sufficient to satisfy him it was unlikely that I was breaking my journey. Is there any limit, however, to how long a layover you can have at a station and still be considered to be making a through journey rather than two journeys?

He would be wrong in thinking this, since - as you say - exiting barriers doesn't definitively mean you are breaking your journey. Even in the case of a station with barriers but no 'station facilities' on the public side of the barriers (an unlikely scenario but one that could arise at some stations), clearly you wouldn't be breaking your journey if you popped outside to have a smoke/vape, for example. So barriers cannot be used as any sort of definition or threshold for being deemed to be breaking your journey.

I think as long as you are continuing your journey the same day you would be entitled to be considered to be making one through journey. In some cases a wait of many hours may be unavoidable because of the frequency or timings of connections; the fact that the timetable may be more convenient in other cases doesn't necessarily mean that 'stepping back' a train (or 10) constitutes a break of journey.

And conversely, if you leave the station entirely - however briefly - does that always constitute a break of journey even if you've still caught the first available connecting train to continue your through journey?

As above, I wouldn't have said so. You may simply be killing time waiting for a connection, having a smoke, etc. Basically this area of the NRCoT is so poorly defined - and so circumstantially variable - that it is almost entirely up to the passenger to define what their journey is and whether or not they're breaking it.

 

[redreni]

1. Accessing facilities within the station building is not a break of journey even on one Advance ticket. BUT, with Northern's staff's hard attitude towards "fare evasion" or "dodgy behaviour", you would unlikely have a chance to pass through.
2. Northern is the main operator to provide staff, though the station is managed by Network Rail.
3. It's down to the attitude of a specific staff, and hard to have any suggestions.

I never had a good experience at the main gateline of Leeds Station while using "complex" tickets or break of journey, when I did my transport degree there. Northern is not particularly customer-friendly at gateline operations.

Yes, I did notice Northern's "No ticket. No excuse." posters on display at (apparently unstaffed) stations between Leeds and Halifax which I found rather irritating, given that anyone who's read the NRCoT will appreciate that there are valid excuses, in certain circumstances, for boarding a train without yet having purchased a ticket.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, I did notice Northern's "No ticket. No excuse." posters on display at (apparently unstaffed) stations between Leeds and Halifax which I found rather irritating, given that anyone who's read the NRCoT will appreciate that there are valid excuses, in certain circumstances, for boarding a train without yet having purchased a ticket.

And indeed they have chosen to adopt a policy of not taking cash at their ticket machines, thus frequently giving people an excuse for not having a ticket (although Northern claim that a Promise to Pay Notice must be obtained in such cases).

 

[SteveM70]

Even in the case of a station with barriers but no 'station facilities' on the public side of the barriers (an unlikely scenario but one that could arise at some stations)

eg Manchester Victoria

 

[redreni]

Thanks @Watershed . That all makes sense and is really helpful.

I might send some feedback Northern's way. I'm pretty sure it was a train company person I spoke to rather than one of the security contractors (who were also there) - I just couldn't remember if he'd been from Northern or LNER.

 

[Bletchleyite]

eg Manchester Victoria

Eh? All the station facilities at Vic are outside the gateline.

There are very few with none outside at all if any. Even Rochdale has a TVM outside.

 

[SteveM70]

Eh? All the station facilities at Vic are outside the gateline.

There are very few with none outside at all if any. Even Rochdale has a TVM outside.

Is that not the point being made? That you'd need to pass through the barriers to avail oneself of the facilities? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that not the point being made? That you'd need to pass through the barriers to avail oneself of the facilities? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

I think it was the opposite - it'd be hard to ask to be let through if there's no facilities outside.

There are very few facilities outside at Bristol TM, just booking office and TVMs.

 

[SteveM70]

I think it was the opposite - it'd be hard to ask to be let through if there's no facilities outside.

There are very few facilities outside at Bristol TM, just booking office and TVMs.

Ah right, fair enough. I blame it on tiredness, a bottle of red wine, and being made to watch a Sunderland match on the telly

 

[redreni]

Ah right, fair enough. I blame it on tiredness, a bottle of red wine, and being made to watch a Sunderland match on the telly

Rather Sunderland on the telly than Halifax vs Maidenhead on a Tuesday night, I assure you...

 

[sheff1]

3. Is there anything in particular people would recommend saying when wanting to pass through a ticket barrier without surrendering your ticket?

In the specific case you described I would show the Leeds - Wakefield ticket and say I wanted to pop "back out" to buy a sandwich. A little white lie (adding in "back") would be fine in my book to save the sort of exchange you experienced.

In circumstances where I wished to retain a 'used' non time specific ticket for (potential) DR purposes I would just use my normal line of "I need to keep the ticket to claim for a delay".
I deliberately say I need to, rather than ask if I can and, so far, have never been quizzed further ... quite probably because delays are so common.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ah right, fair enough. I blame it on tiredness, a bottle of red wine, and being made to watch a Sunderland match on the telly

At least it was a decent result

 

[yorkie]

Yes, I did notice Northern's "No ticket. No excuse." posters on display at (apparently unstaffed) stations between Leeds and Halifax which I found rather irritating, given that anyone who's read the NRCoT will appreciate that there are valid excuses, in certain circumstances, for boarding a train without yet having purchased a ticket.

Unfortunately, train companies such as Northern (and LNER etc) are only really keen on understanding the obligations the NRCoT places on customers; they are rather less keen on the parts of the NRCoT which provide rights to customers and/or obligations on the part of the TOCs themselves.

The people who come up with such posters probably have no intention of fully understanding the NRCoT; the intention is, I suspect, to make passengers fearful and to reduce the possibility of customers insisting on their rights.

There are so many examples of this, I don't think it can be put down to incompetence; it's deliberate, I am sure.

 

[David Goddard]

One of the reasons that when travelling to a station I know is gated I often buy to the next station down the line, small price to avoid the inconvenience.
So for Leeds, if approaching from the West I buy to Cross Gates. Often very little in it.

 

[skyhigh]

One of the reasons that when travelling to a station I know is gated I often buy to the next station down the line, small price to avoid the inconvenience.
So for Leeds, if approaching from the West I buy to Cross Gates. Often very little in it.

I don't understand what inconvenience you're trying to avoid. Is it simply the barrier retaining your ticket?

 

[xotGD]

One of the reasons that when travelling to a station I know is gated I often buy to the next station down the line, small price to avoid the inconvenience.
So for Leeds, if approaching from the West I buy to Cross Gates. Often very little in it.

Just take a photo of your ticket before getting off the train.

 

[David Goddard]

I don't understand what inconvenience you're trying to avoid. Is it simply the barrier retaining your ticket?

Sometimes, yes

 

[yorkie]

@redreni have you contacted Northern? Please do update this thread with their response.

Sometimes, yes

If it's for delay repay or expense claims, what I do (on the rare occasions I obtain paper tickets), is take a photo before the journey commences (or on the first train). Problem solved!

 

[thejuggler]

Or if getting paper tickets request a receipt.

 

[redreni]

@redreni have you contacted Northern? Please do update this thread with their response.


If it's for delay repay or expense claims, what I do (on the rare occasions I obtain paper tickets), is take a photo before the journey commences (or on the first train). Problem solved!

I will do later today (been super-busy).

I'll report back.

 

[yorkie]

Or if getting paper tickets request a receipt.

TOCs ask for the actual tickets, so I strongly advise taking a photo of all tickets prior to travel, or on the first train, as stated above. They may accept a recepit, but I advise doing as I stated in post #21 to avoid potential hassle.

 

[redreni]

TOCs ask for the actual tickets, so I strongly advise taking a photo of all tickets prior to travel, or on the first train, as stated above. They may accept a recepit, but I advise doing as I stated in post #21 to avoid potential hassle.

Since some TOCs (not LNER admittedly) require images of defaced tickets, I would much rather adopt a blanket policy of keeping hold of my tickets until I know I don't need them anymore, rather than having to remember which TOC asks for what.

 

[redreni]

Update:

Northern replied with a template letter addressing none of the specifics.

They did say they would pass the feedback to station management (as I'd hoped they would) and that there would be an investigation (which seems like overkill to be honest although I doubt any such thing will happen).

Interestingly their opening paragraph is

I am writing regarding correspondence you have sent to ourselves relating to your experience when travelling in 13/02/2024 11:00:00 from Halifax to Leeds.

As you'll appreciate from my opening post and as was abundently clear from my letter to them, the incident I was complaining of would not have happened if I was travelling to Leeds. It happened because I was travelling to London and their staff member completely failed to grasp that this explained why I wanted to retain all my tickets until I got there. I must say, though, it strikes me as indicative of a general culture and attitude at train operating companies that multi-operator through journeys are not really their concern and that their responsibility starts and ends with journeys people make on their network. That's exactly the same attitude I experienced at their gateline.

I guess if the person who cobbled the letter together has failed to engage with or grasp the issue that doesn't strictly speaking matter a long as they've passed my letter to the station manager. It is a little disappointing, though.

I don't intend to spend any more time on the matter.

 

[yorkie]

....As you'll appreciate from my opening post and as was abundently clear from my letter to them, the incident I was complaining of would not have happened if I was travelling to Leeds. It happened because I was travelling to London and their staff member completely failed to grasp that this explained why I wanted to retain all my tickets until I got there. I must say, though, it strikes me as indicative of a general culture and attitude at train operating companies that multi-operator through journeys are not really their concern and that their responsibility starts and ends with journeys people make on their network. That's exactly the same attitude I experienced at their gateline....

This is very true, and especially of Northern, who are one of the most unprofessional companies I have dealings with.

Unfortunately, as with most train companies, it's difficult for us to take our business elsewhere; they don't appreciate us as customers and have no interest in providing good customer service. But they know that they can get away with it; they have a guaranteed revenue stream, with the backing of taxpayers money, and many customers have no choice but to travel with them.

I doubt they will ever change.