Bath to Newcastle Super Off Peak Question

[MonsooN]

Afternoon RailUk Forumers

I'm currently enjoying a journey home after a long week away with work. When I travel with work, I book my tickets for me through a 3rd party travel company.

I chose tickets to leave Newcastle on the 07:05 on Monday morning to travel to Bath via London. The return home from Bath was at 13:42 today (Friday 4 May) via London (Getting the 16:00 from Kings Cross). My return ticket is a Super off Peak Single and the whole thing was booked via the 3rd Party system.

On VTEC from King's Cross the ticket inspector told me my ticket wasn't valid on that service because it was a Super Off Peak. She was very nice about it and when I offered to show her my confirmation email from the travel company she had a look. She eventually said she'd "Let me off on this occasion" because I'd started my journey in Bath at 13:42. I'm now worried that the system let me book something that wasn't valid.

I've since spoken to our travel desk and they have assured me that my ticket definitely is valid as it's part of a return journey. They advised me to keep some evidence of my outward journey so I could prove it was part of a return (Not always possible as sometimes the ticket gates keep your ticket at the end of your journey)

Next week, my outward journey is via Birmingham New Street and Bristol TM but returns via London so I may face the same issue next week too.

Can any of you experts here help to put my mind to rest?

Cheers!

 

[najaB]

Can any of you experts here help to put my mind to rest?

Does the ticket bear a restriction code - typically a letter and a number (e.g. 8V)? In the new style ticket format it would say something like 'For details consult staff or go to nationalrail.co.uk/8v'

 

[yorkie]

On VTEC from King's Cross the ticket inspector told me my ticket wasn't valid on that service because it was a Super Off Peak. She was very nice about it and when I offered to show her my confirmation email from the travel company she had a look. She eventually said she'd "Let me off on this occasion" because I'd started my journey in Bath at 13:42. I'm now worried that the system let me book something that wasn't valid.

Cheers!

It's valid.

In March 2010 East Coast recognised some of their staff were incorrectly attempting to charge passengers and issued the following statement within their Pricing & Ticketing Update (PTU)

Off-Peak Restrictions from beyond London
• This is one of the longest running agreements
on the railway but there are still some staff who
do not seem to be familiar with it. It has been
around for at least 25 years!!
• This is another reminder that Off-Peak and
Super Off-Peak fares (SVR & SSR)
commencing from outside the “Network area”
(e.g. Swindon, Bristol, Ipswich) can use East
Coast trains at any time as the SVR restriction
applies on the FGW/NXEA part of the journey
only, e.g. Swindon-London and return to
Swindon. (These are restriction codes 1A, 1Y,
5A and 5X).
• Conversely, when the outward portion is from the
ECML, the restriction then applies on the ECML
only, not on FGW/NXEA.
• If restrictions applied on both the Great
Western/NXEA part of the journey and the East
Coast Main Line, then many long distance
journeys would be quite impractical in one day.
This agreement exists to make those journeys
possible.
Please ensure all staff know

Unfortunately over 8 years later we still do not have a satisfactory level of training provided to staff on this route, and I see no evidence that this problem is going to go away.

A Super Off Peak Single from Bath to Newcastle routed +Any Permitted used for travel via London is only restricted between Bath & London. It is unrestricted between London and Newcastle.

It is not difficult to get it right!

You need to write a complaint to the company. If you do not get a good response, the matter needs to be escalated further.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Afternoon RailUk Forumers

I'm currently enjoying a journey home after a long week away with work. When I travel with work, I book my tickets for me through a 3rd party travel company.

I chose tickets to leave Newcastle on the 07:05 on Monday morning to travel to Bath via London. The return home from Bath was at 13:42 today (Friday 4 May) via London (Getting the 16:00 from Kings Cross). My return ticket is a Super off Peak Single and the whole thing was booked via the 3rd Party system.

On VTEC from King's Cross the ticket inspector told me my ticket wasn't valid on that service because it was a Super Off Peak. She was very nice about it and when I offered to show her my confirmation email from the travel company she had a look. She eventually said she'd "Let me off on this occasion" because I'd started my journey in Bath at 13:42. I'm now worried that the system let me book something that wasn't valid.

I've since spoken to our travel desk and they have assured me that my ticket definitely is valid as it's part of a return journey. They advised me to keep some evidence of my outward journey so I could prove it was part of a return (Not always possible as sometimes the ticket gates keep your ticket at the end of your journey)

Next week, my outward journey is via Birmingham New Street and Bristol TM but returns via London so I may face the same issue next week too.

Can any of you experts here help to put my mind to rest?

Cheers!

Whether or not you can take a train depends on the text of the restriction code applying to your ticket. Note that I say text - as sometimes the electronic implementations of the restriction code do not mirror the actual meaning of the text.

Whether or not you can take the 16:00 from King's Cross depends on exactly what ticket you have. Super Off-Peak tickets from Bath Spa to Newcastle routed 'Any Permitted' carry restriction code 5A (you can read it at nationalrail.co.uk/5A). 5A does not apply any restrictions to travel to or from King's Cross on either leg - you are only restricted from arriving into or departing from Paddington, Waterloo, Kensington Olympia and Reading. So, even though the ticket is 'Super Off-Peak' you can take any train, even at the busiest part of rush hour, on the main part of the journey! This applies regardless of if it's a Single or Return ticket you get from Bath.

However, if you get the same ticket in reverse then restriction 1L (nationalrail.co.uk/1L) applies. This carries significantly greater restrictions - on the outward leg it restricts your arrival into various London and London-area stations in the morning, and on the return leg it significantly restricts your departure from various London and London-area stations both in the morning and evening.

Something that may complicate matters a little is the fact that you can get Super Off-Peak Singles in one direction for half the price of the Super Off-Peak Return if you book another kind of ticket in the other direction. Usually Super Off-Peak Singles cost only £1 or so less than the Return (this special kind of ticket is known as a Super Off-Peak Single (Online) or SSH or SSU). However, the rule is that if you get two Super Off-Peak Single (Online)s which are for the same journey, then they become one Super Off-Peak Return carrying the restrictions of the Super Off-Peak Return.

Not all booking sites can implement the matters I discussed above, and some do it incorrectly. Therefore it would not surprise me if the ticket issuing system has incorrectly issued two Super Off-Peak Single (Online)s, or something of this nature.

In either case - if you are told that you can make a certain itinerary when you are buying your ticket, then this must be accepted (though you would be well advised to try and get some evidence, such as a reservation or a screenshot if you don't know which train you'll get). This is regardless of if it the itinerary has incorrectly or mistakenly been offered (which can happen if, as I alluded to above, there are discrepancies between what the electronic restrictions implement and what the restriction code text actually says).

 

[aye2beeviasea]

I don't understand @yorkie 's reply

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=NCL&dest=BTH&expert=on&flow=2&multi=0&fare=4&ldn=1&tkt=SSR

Seems pretty clear to me that the ticket wasn't valid, what am I missing?

 

[sheff1]

I don't understand @yorkie 's reply

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=NCL&dest=BTH&expert=on&flow=2&multi=0&fare=4&ldn=1&tkt=SSR

Seems pretty clear to me that the ticket wasn't valid, what am I missing?

That is not the ticket which was being used.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't understand @yorkie 's reply

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=NCL&dest=BTH&expert=on&flow=2&multi=0&fare=4&ldn=1&tkt=SSR

Seems pretty clear to me that the ticket wasn't valid, what am I missing?

That's the opposite direction to the ticket OP held, and the restriction code is significantly different for a ticket in the opposite direction - it's not just that the restrictions are swapped in terms of outward and return portion (as for example 2C and 9I are to each other), but Bath to Newcastle is way less restricted, for exactly the same price as the much more restricted reverse ticket.

 

[aye2beeviasea]

Are you sure about that? OP started in Newcastle, went to Bath, returned to Newcastle.

 

[Puffing Devil]

A My return ticket is a Super off Peak Single and the whole thing was booked via the 3rd Party system.

Are you sure about that? OP started in Newcastle, went to Bath, returned to Newcastle.

It's a Single from Bath to Newcastle, not the return half of another ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Are you sure about that? OP started in Newcastle, went to Bath, returned to Newcastle.

The passenger was on a journey from Bath to Newcastle at the time; he was using a Super Off Peak Single from Bath to Newcastle for this journey.

The restrictions applicable to a ticket with an origin and destination both of which are outwith the Network Railcard area, for travel via London, are from the origin to London only, in the case of a single ticket (as in this case) or the outward portion of a return ticket.

(For completeness, the return portion of a return ticket would be restricted between London and destination only).

 

[aye2beeviasea]

Ah, now I see, thanks

 

[Wallsendmag]

Its a single though isnt it being used on the flying Scotsman so it isnt valid as it tajes the restriction from Newcastle and is unrestricted from Paddington . In the opposite direction the reverse applies

 

[_toommm_]

No, as noted before, the journey's restrictions are different inbound to Bath as opposed to outbound, and as Yorkie said it would have been valid.

Some staff just take peak times to be 16:01-18:29 regardless of where they are geographically and where the passenger came from and is going to, which seems like the case here.

If this was the case, there would be less restriction codes as off peak varies vastly throughout the country.

 

[sheff1]

Its a single though isnt it being used on the flying Scotsman so it isnt valid as it tajes the restriction from Newcastle and is unrestricted from Paddington . In the opposite direction the reverse applies

Not sure why you have posted this two weeks after the validity of the Northbound ticket (where the issue arose) was confirmed. Are you claiming the link provided by yorkie is giving incorrect information?

Southbound we do not even know what ticket was used, and there is no need to as the journey was made without problem.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Sorry saw the 0705 but I did say the opposite applies in the otherdirection so yes it is valid​

 

[Wallsendmag]

I ha

Not sure why you have posted this two weeks after the validity of the Northbound ticket (where the issue arose) was confirmed. Are you claiming the link provided by yorkie is giving incorrect information?

Southbound we do not even know what ticket was used, and there is no need to as the journey was made without problem.

I had a PM about the thread so thought I’d reply

 

[MonsooN]

Just an update on the situation...

I made this journey four times over the last four weeks either on a Thursday or a Friday, each time with the same Super Off Peak ticket from Bath to Newcastle on the 16:00 from Kings Cross, which was part of a return from Newcastle travelling a few days earlier. Each time the tickets were booked through my travel desk at work.

Of the four times I've had my ticket checked on the train, three of the inspectors have challenged it saying it's not valid. The first one was as I described in the OP.

The second time, the inspector told me it definitely wasn't valid, he even showed me on his machine that it wasn't, before stamping anyway it and allowing me to continue.

The third week, I was also challenged but when I pointed out that I'd started from Bath, he even finished my sentence for me: ..."So you started outside the network therefore it's fine. Ha! You're better at my job than I am!" (Or something like that)

The fourth week, I presented the ticket along with me seat reservation and the inspector looked at it for an uncomfortably long time before stamping it and carrying on (This was the week after the nationalisation was announced)

During these three weeks, I followed Yorkie's advice and contacted VTEC to double check the validity. They came back to me to say my ticket was not valid and that my travel company should not have allowed me to book it.

Feeling worried about this, I forwarded their reply to my travel desk at work and they contacted VTEC themselves. They spoke to two different people one of which said the tickets were valid and one who said they weren't. The travel desk came back to me to tell me this but said that although VTEC said the ticket wasn't valid, they checked VTEC's website and it allowed them to book the same journey on a Super off Peak!

Thankfully, apart from some minor inconvenience, I have not been affected. It does highlight though just how complex the whole ticketing system is If VTEC themselves can't even confirm the validity of a ticket that's available to buy through their own website!

 

[ainsworth74]

If VTEC themselves can't even confirm the validity of a ticket that's available to buy through their own website!

Ha, that's par for the course. I've had arguments with them where Customer Relations say something isn't valid whilst their own website is selling the perfectly valid ticket.

In any event I would have no qualms with continuing to use the ticket in the way described so far. It is 100% valid no matter what VTEC and/or their revenue staff say.

 

[yorkie]

Yes and if VTEC's customer relations staff (some of whom I've had the displeasure of misleading me with incorrect information) need to ask an expert, we know their experts know that it is valid.

 

[Haywain]

Yes and if VTEC's customer relations staff (some of whom I've had the displeasure of misleading me with incorrect information) need to ask an expert, we know their experts know that it is valid.

Yep, a Super Off Peak Single from Bath to Newcastle is always valid from King's Cross during the afternoon peak. The fact that it is booked as part of a return journey just clouds the issue for some, so is best not mentioned.