Battery Freight - about to become feasible?

[fishwomp]

Can we use big batteries to power our trains?

A new analysis suggests the economics are close to breaking even.

arstechnica.com

With the rapid pace of development in electric vehicles, we will likely get to a place where eliminating carbon emissions from one form of transport is possible. But cleaning up the remaining major modes—planes, trains, and ships—appears to be considerably more challenging. A new analysis suggests we have a good idea of how to improve one of those.

The study, performed by California-based researchers, looks at the possibility of electrifying rail-based freight. It finds that the technology is pretty much ready, and under the right circumstances, the economics are on the verge of working out. Plus, putting giant batteries on freight cars has the potential to create some interesting side benefits...

[..]

Scientists looked into this possibility some years back, but it was rejected on both technological and economic grounds. Since that time, batteries have gotten considerably larger, and they have dropped in price by 87 percent over the last decade. The researchers behind the new study decided it was worth taking another look.

A study from USA. Seems to be saying (a) it could be done, (b) it's a bit expensive - but potentially soon could be feasible.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I can't see it anytime soon with existing tech., it's not got a prayer?

 

[fishwomp]

I can't see it anytime soon with existing tech., it's not got a prayer?

There was an article in Modern Railways a couple of months back which I thought showed promise - again in the US (I think). Where they might've had three locos, they had two diesel and one battery powered instead. The battery (hybrid?) powered loco uses regen-braking, soaking up the energy from the whole train and (IIRC) only contributes power on inclines. It had a decent fuel reduction.

 

[matacaster]

I can't see it anytime soon with existing tech., it's not got a prayer?

.... and when there is a serious collision with a battery powered loco, how will they put the fire out and how many passengers in the other train will escape without being burned to death. See pictures of various electric cars having burnt out.

 

[AlastairFraser]

.... and when there is a serious collision with a battery powered loco, how will they put the fire out and how many passengers in the other train will escape without being burned to death. See pictures of various electric cars having burnt out.

Diesel is also very flammable and has been used on the railway and wider transport/energy industries without insurmountable issues for over a hundred years now.
You can use a dry powder extinguisher on electrical fires, available everywhere. Any half-decent fire direction system would be able to pick up the fire before it got anywhere near passengers and bring the train to an emergency stop. Lithium is flammable, but it's got a few tons of steel to burn through in the loco shell before it reaches the passenger areas.

 

[NotATrainspott]

.... and when there is a serious collision with a battery powered loco, how will they put the fire out and how many passengers in the other train will escape without being burned to death. See pictures of various electric cars having burnt out.

Battery fires generally seem to happen much more slowly. A ruptured diesel tank spraying through a fire can produce a large inferno, with excess fuel ending up in places it's not meant to be and then burning out whatever is around it. Battery packs are typically made of discrete cells which would burn individually, and the danger of each cell goes down as they are separated from each other.

It is also wrong to obsess about battery safety in rail because train crashes essentially do not happen. The sorts of crashes that can lead to catastrophic fires are also statistically irrelevant nowadays. Not making rail more convenient for passengers and freight means more journeys that happen on the roads where horrific fatal crashes are an everyday occurrence.

 

[fishwomp]

.... and when there is a serious collision with a battery powered loco, how will they put the fire out and how many passengers in the other train will escape without being burned to death. See pictures of various electric cars having burnt out.

Hydrogen.
Petrol.
Diesel.
Aviation fuel.

There's something common to all of those - passengers. Some fuels explode, some burn ferociously, .. a battery can do so also.

 

[BayPaul]

I like the idea of a battery tender to allow an electric loco to run over a shortish piece of non-electrified track. If it was built quite low, I wonder if it would be practical to put such a tender on the front of the locomotive for that section, to minimise shunting requirements.

 

[MarkyT]

I like the idea of a battery tender to allow an electric loco to run over a shortish piece of non-electrified track. If it was built quite low, I wonder if it would be practical to put such a tender on the front of the locomotive for that section, to minimise shunting requirements.

Like those old brake tenders used in the early diesel era for working non and partially-fitted freights. Although none survived into preservation, the GCR built a replica one recently. For good adhesive braking capability they must have been ballasted to an extent, so something similar today might be packed with batteries instead. Optionally, add some traction motors too for a remote control battery 'slug' configuration giving extra adhesion. Possible to use in conjunction with an electric or to convert a diesel to hybrid.

 

[edwin_m]

Can we use big batteries to power our trains?

A new analysis suggests the economics are close to breaking even.

arstechnica.com

"With the rapid pace of development in electric vehicles, we will likely get to a place where eliminating carbon emissions from one form of transport is possible. But cleaning up the remaining major modes—planes, trains, and ships—appears to be considerably more challenging. A new analysis suggests we have a good idea of how to improve one of those.

The study, performed by California-based researchers, looks at the possibility of electrifying rail-based freight. It finds that the technology is pretty much ready, and under the right circumstances, the economics are on the verge of working out. Plus, putting giant batteries on freight cars has the potential to create some interesting side benefits..."

A study from USA. Seems to be saying (a) it could be done, (b) it's a bit expensive - but potentially soon could be feasible.

Just going by that quote it appears to be ignoring the possibilities of rail electrification and implying that road emissions are easier to cut than rail ones. This is essentially an American-centric view and probably doesn't have much relevance to Europe.

 

[fishwomp]

Just going by that quote it appears to be ignoring the possibilities of rail electrification and implying that road emissions are easier to cut than rail ones. This is essentially an American-centric view and probably doesn't have much relevance to Europe.

A battery tender, scientific analysis of types of battery, and stated reduction in battery cost over the decade.. can't see why those would not be relevant.

With discontinuous electrification more prevalent here, charging such a battery from overheads would make it pretty feasible, pretty quickly, and probably smaller batteries than the US.

At the end of the day, we can't electrify many freight yards (bottom unloading would be fine, but that usually means top loading at the origin), so it seems better to have a battery in the consist, than to couple up a diesel or battery shunter at every destination.

 

[billio]

Hydrogen.
Petrol.
Diesel.
Aviation fuel.

There's something common to all of those - passengers. Some fuels explode, some burn ferociously, .. a battery can do so also.

I thought one of the issues with batteries was the danger of 'shorting out' the stored energy resulting in explosion - something that is not possible with the other fuels which need oxygen to burn.

 

[PeterC]

I thought one of the issues with batteries was the danger of 'shorting out' the stored energy resulting in explosion - something that is not possible with the other fuels which need oxygen to burn.

The impression that I have gained from casual reading is that hydrocarbon based fuels are far more likely to cause fires but that battery fires are more serious when they do happen.

 

[Grumpy Git]

My own view is that hydrogen is currently the best alternative. I know people conjure-up images of The Hindenburg catastrophe, (maybe some even link it with the "hydrogen bomb" too), but in reality hydrogen disperses extremely quickly when it escapes.

Jet engines can be made to run efficiently on hydrogen with minimal modification (in basic terms). The problem (for aircraft at least), is that hydrogen needs to be stored in a high-pressure container, which means the traditional area inside the wings cannot be used, (the shape profile is all wrong). This means a very large proportion of the passenger cabin would be needed for the fuel tank. This is obviously not a problem for the railway.

 

[HSTEd]

Just going by that quote it appears to be ignoring the possibilities of rail electrification and implying that road emissions are easier to cut than rail ones. This is essentially an American-centric view and probably doesn't have much relevance to Europe.

Given the problems of the electrification programme, are you sure?

Jet engines can be made to run efficiently on hydrogen with minimal modification (in basic terms). The problem (for aircraft at least), is that hydrogen needs to be stored in a high-pressure container, which means the traditional area inside the wings cannot be used, (the shape profile is all wrong). This means a very large proportion of the passenger cabin would be needed for the fuel tank. This is obviously not a problem for the railway.

Even cryogenic liquid hydrogen only has a density of 80kg/m3.

You could build a cryogenic hydrogen fueled plane, but as you say it wouldn't look anything like planes today - it would just be a giant fuel tank with a passenger cabin attached, although it wouldn't weigh much more than existing planes.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Given the problems of the electrification programme, are you sure?

The problems seem to me to be the contractors charging top-whack for inexperienced staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is obviously not a problem for the railway.

it very definitely is!

 

[fishwomp]

The impression that I have gained from casual reading is that hydrocarbon based fuels are far more likely to cause fires but that battery fires are more serious when they do happen.

There have certainly been some weird battery fires - old cars spontaneously combusting a day after a crash (or that kind of weird).

Ultimately it's about energy - a Tesla long-distance has 90kWh of energy in it, or roughly the same energy as 9.5 litres of petrol. Both forms of energy storage can release energy all at once, or gradually.

It might be a case of we're more terrified of the new risk, than of the existing risk - even if the new one is lower. Petrol fires are far from good.

 

[coppercapped]

The analysis uses monetary values of health improvements to justify this approach as a purely financial analysis is not convincing.

It is therefore odd that the arstechnica article is illustrated with a train running near a small town in Montana - with not a person in sight - which is the fourth largest state by area in the USA, but with a total population of only just over a million.

 

[Sm5]

The analysis uses monetary values of health improvements to justify this approach as a purely financial analysis is not convincing.

It is therefore odd that the arstechnica article is illustrated with a train running near a small town in Montana - with not a person in sight - which is the fourth largest state by area in the USA, but with a total population of only just over a million.

America is a vast country. Its fair to say pollution is concentrated around the developed areas. That doesnt make it right to pollute the countryside, even if its only smaller amounts.

The risk to passengers in a fire would be minimal as theres very few trains running across the country, they are mostly in urban areas. I once missed a train in the wild west… I caught the next train, 3 days later… I could of course have flown to my next destination.. they are nearly every hour.