BBC News: Teenage boy dies at railway depot

[Ferret]

Quite. We (rightly, in my opinion) do not have the death penalty for any crime in this country*, let alone for a relatively minor crime such as trespass and/or graffiti (with graffiti being pure speculation here).

Quite correct. What relevance this has I'm not entirely sure though. He made a conscious choice to risk his own safety and life by climbing on top of a wagon whilst committing a criminal act. As I've said before, he could have lost his life by falling off that wagon just as easily!

Coming back to Metroland's post, the use of the word 'unfortunate' implies he was just unlucky. I could use several words to describe him and unlucky isn't one of them! Reckless, stupid & idiotic are three that spring instantly to mind. Yes, his death was a needless waste but his fate was entirely of his own making and is almost worthy of a Darwin Award.

 

[Kneedown]

Quite. We (rightly, in my opinion) do not have the death penalty for any crime in this country*, let alone for a relatively minor crime such as trespass and/or graffiti (with graffiti being pure speculation here).

Have to disagree with you there, there are a few crimes we should have death penalty for, but i digress.

This was not a penalty, this was entirely self inflicted.

Death is a fact of life, it's coming to all of us at some point. All we can do is to take responsibility for our own actions to minimise the chances of our popping off too soon.
Why don't people save their sympathy for those genuine tragedies like Baby P?
Some people need to get a grip on the real world instead of complaining about posts and calling people heartless!
I save my sympathies for the innocents.

 

[Metroland]

Metroland, I think some of the comments you refer to stem from their authors having been on the receiving end of 'chav culture' and this particular individual getting his comeuppance, however horrific that was.

What's got my goat is all the misplaced sympathy. This person *chose* to engage in a highly dangerous and illegal activity ignoring plenty of warning signs and paid the penalty, it's as simple as that. Quite why anyone should feel sympathy for this individual is beyond me.

I think it was quite clear from my comments that my sympathy is with the friends and family. What irks me is an awful lot of assumptions are made about this lad's background from appearances and circumstances. I really don't think that's called for however foolish he appears to have been.

It must be remembered that he is a child, and while he should know by his age about risk, the stark reality is even adults make stupid judgements about their own safety, taking risks with level crossings for instance.

I don't support or condone what he was doing for one minute and I think it was very much his fault. But I really do think people should consider very carefully what they say before piling in and running down someone for a stupid mistake and condemning the whole person in the process, in turn, posting very nasty comments on a public forum. He's not here to read them, but his friends and family are. Please have some dignity, manners and feeling and keep them to yourselves.

 

[Oswyntail]

Well said, Metroland.

 

[jon0844]

even adults make stupid judgements about their own safety, taking risks with level crossings for instance.

But they're being just as stupid, and so we'd have no sympathy for them either, would we?

I'm not going to make excuses to protect these people. We have this thing called evolution, and as time goes on, nature sorts things out for us - these people will simply become extinct.

We can make assumptions about this person because it seemed likely from day one that this person was up to no good, then we saw the photo and the comments from his chavvy mates that talked about when he was younger and throwing stones at houses - and God knows what else.

I do perhaps agree that we should keep our opinions to ourselves, but you know what? That simply means we're all still thinking it anyway!

 

[Metroland]

But they're being just as stupid, and so we'd have no sympathy for them either, would we?

We might, we might not. I don't remember people running down the two nice middle class girls that got run down on a level crossing near Cambridge, even though that accident was at least partly their fault.

It seems to me people want to have a go because the lad appears to be 'a Chav'. Well you know what, lots of regular people get up to other anti-social and illegal activities too, such as binge drinking, illegal file downloading, reckless driving, the list is endless. Should we dance on their graves as well, when they have accidents? I'm fairly sure not many people are completely innocent in the way they lead their lives. I repeat, he is a child.

This is an appalling example of the tabloid mentality we have in this country, quick to judge, slow to understand.

 

[Ferret]

I think it was quite clear from my comments that my sympathy is with the friends and family. What irks me is an awful lot of assumptions are made about this lad's background from appearances and circumstances. .

Well, to some extent they aren't assumptions. Throwing stones at people's houses? That gives an indication of the sort of activity he was involved in.

Yes his family and friends are still alive to possibly read the comments on here, some of which are blunt to say the least. The harsh reality though is that aside from the 'close to the bone' jokes, a lot of what has been written is true, and the truth has a nagging tendency to hurt.

The only good that can come of it is that his demise serves as a lesson to others that if you choose the wrong path in life it can have quite nasty consequences. We can but hope that some heed the lesson.

 

[Metroland]

Indeed, railways are dangerous places and children should be nowhere near them where they are not authorised - or adults for that matter. Most children, however, do not lead blameless lives and get up to no good, including going places they are not supposed to be. As I said, I think wider prejudices are at work here.

 

[Ferret]

This is an appalling example of the tabloid mentality we have in this country, quick to judge, slow to understand.

I completely disagree. If more people were prepared to judge and say that actually, a lot of what goes on today is wrong then we wouldn't have such a breakdown in morality. It's this namby-pamby attitude of 'all they need is a bit of understanding' that has lead us down this road....

And if we're talking about inappropriate, glorifying and revelling in criminal activity on a forum supposedly set up in memory of the deceased really is beyond the pale.

 

[Metroland]

Yes I know your sort Ferret, you want lots of understanding when nasty things happen to you and your circumstances but with anyone else all the answers are 'simple', and can be gleaned from Facebook and the Sun.

Examples such as: 'Go and catch the real criminals' mentality from drivers, some of whom are murderers and wrecked people's lives more than any small time criminal or misguided child.

It's all to do with perception rather than reality.

I don't condone anti-social activities and have never been involved in them, how dare you imply because I object to people running a child down, the lack of morality is to do with me.

 

[tony_mac]

then we wouldn't have such a breakdown in morality.

I don't know about you, but I certainly consider gloating over the death of a child as a 'breakdown in morality'

 

[jon0844]

We might, we might not. I don't remember people running down the two nice middle class girls that got run down on a level crossing near Cambridge, even though that accident was at least partly their fault.

I do. In fact, there were identical comments for these girls - proving there's no class distinction for stupidity.

I'm sure you must have seen them too, but need to try and turn this into an argument about whether it's fair to refer to him as a chav. Or, as it seems, that we should in some way treat him better because he can't have known any better.

 

[Ferret]

I don't know about you, but I certainly consider gloating over the death of a child as a 'breakdown in morality'

Only I haven't been gloating about the death of that child, merely suggesting that his demise was nobody's fault but his own and any sympathy for him is sadly misplaced. Mine lies with the Ambulance crew and the Police Officers who had the horrible task of telling the parents that their son had died, and the circumstances in which it had happened.
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Yes I know your sort Ferret, you want lots of understanding when nasty things happen to you and your circumstances but with anyone else all the answers are 'simple', and can be gleaned from Facebook and the Sun.

Examples such as: 'Go and catch the real criminals' mentality from drivers, some of whom are murderers and wrecked people's lives more than any small time criminal or misguided child.

It's all to do with perception rather than reality.

I don't condone anti-social activities and have never been involved in them, how dare you imply because I object to people running a child down, the lack of morality is to do with me.

Wrong again Metroland. I prefer to take responsibility for my actions rather than expect sympathy.

And as for your last missive, just grow up. You made a wider generalisation about how we should understand instead of judge and I came back and said that I disagree fundamentally with that point of view and outlined why. Where did I imply that the lack of morality that blights society is down to you? If you can't engage in reasoned debate without taking offence because someone begs to differ with your opinion, maybe you should save yourself the bother and not engage?

 

[Metroland]

I do. In fact, there were identical comments for these girls - proving there's no class distinction for stupidity.

So, '‘I think I mustered up a five second smirk.. Is that wrong?’', was used in their example. I think not.

Yes it is wrong jonmorris talking about children in that way.

As for you Ferret, you know very well I'm talking about sympathy for the family and friends, and you are equally a disgrace for implying anything different when you know everyone who has posted agrees that it was the boys fault. You haven't seemed to grasp that some of us are objecting to some of the comments, not the idiocy of this boy's action, so I rather think you need to look closer to home about reasoned debate.

You said

'If more people were prepared to judge and say that actually, a lot of what goes on today is wrong then we wouldn't have such a breakdown in morality. It's this namby-pamby attitude of 'all they need is a bit of understanding' that has lead us down this road....'

Yes I'm judging that some of the comments here are wrong.

 

[tony_mac]

Sorry, I didn't meant to imply that you had been gloating - but some others have.

his demise was nobody's fault but his own and any sympathy for him is sadly misplaced

I don't think that anyone has disagreed that it was anybody's fault but his own; I'm not sure that sympathy is the right word, but I don't think that some degree of regret for this happening is entirely misplaced either.

Many people contribute to their own deaths, and if you really feel that the deaths of all smokers, drinkers, motorcyclists, careless pedestrians, trespassers etc. should simply be treated with disdain, then I think that's a bit sad.

Saying it's his own fault is one thing, being pleased that he's dead is something else.
Making a public statement, without any prompting, that you have 'absolutely no sympathy', I think, can be take as implying that you actually intended to express some animosity. (that's not referring to you either, I haven't checked who said what). But as for not actually feeling any sympathy at all, I can perfectly understand that, it was his own fault, although I'm glad that I am not quite so cynical.

Did somebody really say about those girls 'I'm glad that they are dead'?

 

[jon0844]

That was a joke in response to the minute silence post - suggesting a five second smirk instead. I said I didn't really smirk, and don't understand why anyone would think I did.

And, the exact same comments about the stupidness of the girls was all over the place - on many forums and as comments on the websites that originally run the story (and subsequent follow up pieces). Not the exact 'five second smirk' (which if you've actually read through the thread from the beginning properly, not cherry picking things, was already explained) but you're not seriously suggesting that people had to say exactly the same things for it to count?

I don't have sympathy for the boy himself, but nor am I laughing, breaking open the champagne or getting off on the newst. Life moves on, and I don't really care one way or another. I do feel sorry for those left behind though, although the jury is out on whether the parents could have done more to prevent it.

Can you explain though why this is now a class issue? That we would naturally not be expected to have the same opinion if he had been middle class? The photo shows him as a chav, the comments from his friends only serve to confirm it. But, I never knew anything about him before my post. It would be the same if he was a public schoolboy, male, female, black or white.

 

[tony_mac]

That was a joke in response to the minute silence post - suggesting a five second smirk instead. I said I didn't really smirk, and don't understand why anyone would think I did.

Ok, I think that was a misunderstanding. It really wasn't very clear to me either that it was meant as a joke.

It's really difficult to read between the lines when you don't know somebody and only have the written words to go on, it's very easy to miss irony etc. To be honest, I wouldn't normally assume that people would post something so callous, but it came very shortly after the 'Good...one less chav' post.

 

[Metroland]

That was a joke in response to the minute silence post - suggesting a five second smirk instead. I said I didn't really smirk, and don't understand why anyone would think I did.

And, the exact same comments about the stupidness of the girls was all over the place - on many forums and as comments on the websites that originally run the story (and subsequent follow up pieces). Not the exact 'five second smirk' (which if you've actually read through the thread from the beginning properly, not cherry picking things, was already explained) but you're not seriously suggesting that people had to say exactly the same things for it to count?

I don't have sympathy for the boy himself, but nor am I laughing, breaking open the champagne or getting off on the newst. Life moves on, and I don't really care one way or another. I do feel sorry for those left behind though, although the jury is out on whether the parents could have done more to prevent it.

Can you explain though why this is now a class issue? That we would naturally not be expected to have the same opinion if he had been middle class? The photo shows him as a chav, the comments from his friends only serve to confirm it. But, I never knew anything about him before my post. It would be the same if he was a public schoolboy, male, female, black or white.

It was clear that it was a joke, as were other poor taste remarks. Everything else I have explained.

 

[the sniper]

It seems to me people want to have a go because the lad appears to be 'a Chav'. Well you know what, lots of regular people get up to other anti-social and illegal activities too, such as binge drinking, illegal file downloading, reckless driving, the list is endless.

For me, having no sympathy was nothing to do with him being a yob, as I didn't have any sympathy when I knew nothing about him. Admittedly, when I saw his picture and read his past record I wasn't surprised that he'd be the type to be illegally trespassing on railway property without a care for the consequences of his actions. Nevertheless, even if it had been Nelson Mandela, the Pope, Steven Hawking, Stephen Fry or the kid from Stavros Flatley up there, I still wouldn't have had any sympathy, regret or whatever else.

Many people contribute to their own deaths, and if you really feel that the deaths of all smokers, drinkers, motorcyclists, careless pedestrians, trespassers etc. should simply be treated with disdain, then I think that's a bit sad.

With the points highlighted, it depends very much on the degree to which they were the cause of their own death. If the motorcyclist had been minding his own business, following the speed limit, then had some idiot pull straight out in front of him, resulting in his death, then you'd have to feel really sorry for them. If they were doing a wheelie at 70mph in a 30mph zone, then drove into the back of a parked truck, then I wouldn't feel sorry for them if they died.

The same can said of the pedestrian, I'd feel sorry for someone who had a momentary lapse in concentration and stepped out in front of a bus. I wouldn't have the same feelings for someone who climbed a fence and chose to run across a motorway, getting smashed to pieces in the process.

It's all about how much respect the person shows for their own life which dictates how much remorse you should show when they die.

 

[D107]

Is there really much point in this thread continuing? A fairly simple but sad case of misadventure, grief for his family and friends and sympathy for those involved in the aftermath.

There is a subtle but important difference of course between the two girls killed on a level crossing and this. The girls didn't knowingly risk their lives.

Tragedy nonetheless, but a difference in circumstance.

 

[Ferret]

As for you Ferret, you know very well I'm talking about sympathy for the family and friends, and you are equally a disgrace for implying anything different when you know everyone who has posted agrees that it was the boys fault. You haven't seemed to grasp that some of us are objecting to some of the comments, not the idiocy of this boy's action, so I rather think you need to look closer to home about reasoned debate.

Have they? You may well have accepted that fact Metroland but there have been quite a few posts throughout this thread suggesting that we should have some sympathy for the lad whose own actions and nobody elses caused his own death. I've grasped perfectly your take on the situation thank you very much and aside from your use of the word "unfortunate" which to me implies he was somehow unlucky I broadly agree with your views on the fatal incident.

As for the comments that you refer to, they haven't really added anything to the thread have they? Like I said yesterday, you will find that there are those who have been adversely affected by "chav culture" who seize upon this with glee and express happiness at events.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many people contribute to their own deaths, and if you really feel that the deaths of all smokers, drinkers, motorcyclists, careless pedestrians, trespassers etc. should simply be treated with disdain, then I think that's a bit sad.

Disdain is a strong word to use here. Being a railwayman myself, this is an issue close to my heart. Those that injure or kill themselves by messing about on the railway never get any sympathy from me whatsoever. They fail to understand the impact their actions have on others - some never make it back to work after enduring such a harrowing experience. Therein lies the reason why I refuse to show any sympathy for this boy whose silly actions could well have caused a professional who just turned up for work expecting a normal day to completely lose the plot.

Thankfully I've only ever had involvement in one fatality. In that instance I saw somebody sat on the edge of the cess smoking a fag - realising something was seriously amiss, we stopped to report it to get the job stopped, and just as my driver had come to a stand and was ringing the signaller on the NRN, we were passed by a train heading the other way which struck the man I'd seen. I'm sure you can imagine that I don't look back upon that day with any fondness - in fact it's still the worst day of my railway career by far.

 

[tony_mac]

Disdain is a strong word to use here. Being a railwayman myself, this is an issue close to my heart. Those that injure or kill themselves by messing about on the railway never get any sympathy from me whatsoever. They fail to understand the impact their actions have on others - some never make it back to work after enduring such a harrowing experience. Therein lies the reason why I refuse to show any sympathy for this boy whose silly actions could well have caused a professional who just turned up for work expecting a normal day to completely lose the plot.

Disdain was possibly polite, considering the content of a couple of the posts.

A lack of sympathy, I can understand. In particular, being angry about the effects that it would have on other, entirely innocent people, I can also understand - and I realise that you will feel more strongly about that than I will, you have seen the effect it has on people.

Had all the posts been like this, I would have said fair enough. My big problem was some claiming an active pleasure at a boy's death, and nobody (at that point) challenging this point of view.

I do think that everybody has agreed that it was his fault, but some of us can still manage some regret, regardless. (I'm not entirely sure sympathy is quite the right word). It was a sad, stupid and pointless waste of a life and would have been a horrific experience for all of those involved.
It was unfortunate, even if it was a likely result, in that it wasn't intended and is something to wish had never happened - for most of us at least.

I would, at least, hope that it puts other kids off from going near railways - but sadly I doubt that will last for long.

 

[90019]

I would, at least, hope that it puts other kids off from going near railways - but sadly I doubt that will last for long.

I think you're right with that, as there is the "it'll never happen to me" mentality, and I guess that some kids will be back to doing the same things despite this kid's death.

 

[Metroland]

I've grasped perfectly your take on the situation thank you very much and aside from your use of the word "unfortunate" .

I understand your objection to that word. I'll tell you why I choose it though, whereas you and I might fully understand the danger of the railway, children, nay, many adults do not - especially judging by the amount of enthusiasts that get on the track when specials are running or hang out of windows, or get close to passing trains. It may be that he didn't understand those cables were live (some people do think they are switched off when no trains are running), he may have not realised that you don't need to be touching the wires to get a shock from them - indeed, most likely.

People of all ages take unnecessary risks and are on the whole quite clueless with these [railway] risks. For instance grown teens with college educations have been killed walking on the track in 3rd rail areas not knowing the rails are live. Obviously this has an effect on people that have to clear up the mess - and I've been involved with that myself.

I'm not especially sympathetic to the diseased, definitely not sympathetic to chav culture, sympathetic to the people that have had to put up with the aftermath, but let's not come across as completely nasty for the latter's sake not the former and damn his actions and not too much the person.

 

[jon0844]

It's all about how much respect the person shows for their own life which dictates how much remorse you should show when they die.

You know what? I think you've nailed it with that single sentence.

If the thread was locked now, I'd be very happy for it to end on that note.

 

[mbonwick]

Were there any cars on it at the time?

Don't think so - the exact wording was "a disused car transporter vehicle"


_____

Now, personally I feel it's unfair to compare this incident to the one at Elsenham. Haveing been there and seen the old system, I can understand why they walked out. I feel it was just a misjudgment on their part.
However this incident was just downright stupid - it was clearly premeditated and as such I have very little sympathy for the lad. I do feel for the people he leaves behind though.

 

[Kneedown]

Being a railwayman myself, this is an issue close to my heart. Those that injure or kill themselves by messing about on the railway never get any sympathy from me whatsoever. They fail to understand the impact their actions have on others

Agreed 100%
As a Driver of nearly 20yrs with 2 fatalities and numerous near ones, and many years spent in the service of Her Majesty, i've probably seen more bodies in various states of mutilation than the average bod.
It's not something i, or any of my colleagues get up in the morning eagerly awaiting, but it goes with the territory. If we shed tears and fret every time it happened we'd pack the job in, but we deal with it, joke about it even, because if we didn't we'd just not be able to carry on. There are those who will call us callous, but they are the one's who will probably never see someone die violently and certainly not live with the possibility of it happening everytime you go to work.
It's one thing reading about incidents such as this, it's something else entirely when you see them occur along with other instances where people, young and old, male and female, treat their own lives so cheaply.

You will forgive me if i've become a little hardened over the years.

Please consider that folks, before you label me, or my jokes callous, and i know full well that it was me being referred to in some earlier posts.

I have no more to say on the matter which will keep the bleeding hearts happy.

 

[Ferret]

Agreed 100%
If we shed tears and fret every time it happened we'd pack the job in, but we deal with it, joke about it even, because if we didn't we'd just not be able to carry on. There are those who will call us callous, but they are the one's who will probably never see someone die violently and certainly not live with the possibility of it happening everytime you go to work.

Saltley man MN (a true gent sadly no longer with us) was nearing double figures when he drove his last train - he'd long since given up being affected by fatalities! I guess that was his way of dealing with it, but then some deal with that kind of upheaval better than others.
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I understand your objection to that word. I'll tell you why I choose it though, whereas you and I might fully understand the danger of the railway, children, nay, many adults do not............. he may have not realised that you don't need to be touching the wires to get a shock from them - indeed, most likely.

I suspect you're right - he may well have been completely ignorant of there being no need to touch the overhead to get a shock. When I was a kid, we were taught that electricity could arc - what they teach them now (if anything!) is anybody's guess!!!!! Still doesn't alter the fact that he could just as easily have fallen off that wagon and killed himself. It was a high risk game he was playing and I'll bet he knew it. Trouble is, I guess at that age you feel invincible. He learned the hard way......

 

[jon0844]

When I was at school, we went on a school trip to a nature reserve that was by an electricity substation. As part of the day, we were let in to the substation area and warned about the dangers.

Surely schools (or parents) can warn about dangers like this, right down to just warning kids not to poke things into electrical sockets?

Chances are the reason the kid 'dared' or was dared to go up was BECAUSE it was dangerous and he wanted to prove himself - and that's what killed him. And that is indeed nothing less than total stupidity.

 

[Oswyntail]

Haven't we had a recent long and acrimonious thread somewhere about whether it is permissible to ignore safety notices?:roll: