BBC News - Train drivers overwhelmingly middle-aged white men

[14xxDave]

It's the BBC they have been told to push the culture wars by this current shower to try and keep their jobs!

 

[SargeNpton]

The population of Britain is predominately white and so, on average, the workforce in any company will be predominately white.

Statistically, it's impossible for every workplace to have an above average representation of minorities.

 

[ExRes]

All minority groups should be forced, by law if necessary, to apply for these jobs whether they want them or not and whether they're capable of doing them or not, it's a national disgrace that only people that apply for said jobs end up doing them

 

[Scotrail12]

The BBC talks crap when it comes to diversity. I genuinely think that not ticking any diversity box is frowned upon in that organisation (and I'm gay, so technically would tick one!). Certain groups (ethnic, disability, LGBT or otherwise) are way overrepresented on there, you just have to look at their presenting talent and how pretty much every show has to have a certain percentage of 'diversity', regardless of talent. I don't know if they can only see things from a London perspective, but go to anywhere else in the country and The BBC isn't representative of it at all.

Ironically, this is the same organisation that prides themselves on having Strictly presented by two middle aged, straight white women - you just know that the reverse would NEVER happen.

 

[Horizon22]

There is evidently a historical element to this. For the most part, once someone becomes a train driver, they normally retire a train driver.

20 years ago the shift work and nature of the role appealed to men more than women (and in many cases still does). Therefore it will take a generation or so before this becomes becomes more balanced. I imagine if you looked at pilots there would be similar stats. A well-balanced workforce (old and young, newer and experienced, variety of genders and races) is normally good for productivity of any company and the railway is making steps towards this, but it will of course be slow.

The average age of the UK is 41, so it's not wildly disimilar.

I would say many 46 year olds would feel hard done by being called middle age these days. That's more 50s and 60s.

Average life expectancy is around 80-83, so they are firmly middle aged!

 

[GardenRail]

Just seen this article



Not sure what the point of the article is though, it's always been the case that most train drivers are male.

Here we go again. As far as I'm aware, job advertisements are open to all race, and all gender. But somehow the industry periodically feels like it has to punish itself because different genders and race don't apply. Why does it matter from a railway operations point of view, so long as the railway is safe, and well. If you want to apply, apply. If not, it's not news. Just seek a career you WANT to do.

 

[Class385]

Coming from the freight side of the railway, I can totally understand why it doesn’t appeal to females.
Lack of toilet facilities being a bit part of it, probably only have access to a toilet on about 50% of my pnb’s.

 

[ComUtoR]

All minority groups should be forced, by law if necessary, to apply for these jobs whether they want them or not and whether they're capable of doing them or not, it's a national disgrace that only people that apply for said jobs end up doing them

I disagree. They should be given the job without any prior testing and made to work without any terms and conditions. Maybe they would do a better job and not have all those incidents and get the trains back running on time.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Sometimes I feel white middle aged men are being discriminated against by the media. I’ve really no idea why this should be. Like others have said,slow news day! Oh ,and an impending drivers strike!!

It seems to be the case that white males are supposed to feel guilty for daring to even breathe these days. Despite the fact that no one has a choice in being born one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coming from the freight side of the railway, I can totally understand why it doesn’t appeal to females.
Lack of toilet facilities being a bit part of it, probably only have access to a toilet on about 50% of my pnb’s.

That's something that should have "reasonable adjustments" made to avoid sex discrimination. It's not really acceptable for people to need to urinate in the bushes because the company can't be bothered to provide facilities either on the loco or at places where PNBs take place.

The issue is similar for bus drivers, particularly now many towns have got rid of the central bus station (which would have had staff toilets) in favour of cross town running and termini in random suburban streets.

 

[Coolzac]

I completely agree with most of what has been said.

However, I have heard first hand from a couple of LGBT drivers that they have experienced some very bad discrimination and bullying. This was in quite rural areas where homophobia might be more prevalent anyway. Unfortunately it wasn't really dealt with by management.

So I think maybe the industry just needs to make sure that people who enter the profession aren't leaving at a higher rate than a certain demographic, and that any bullying or discrimination is dealt with swiftly.

 

[ExRes]

I disagree. They should be given the job without any prior testing and made to work without any terms and conditions. Maybe they would do a better job and not have all those incidents and get the trains back running on time.

Now you're talking have you ever thought about a political future?

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, I have heard first hand from a couple of LGBT drivers that they have experienced some very bad discrimination and bullying. This was in quite rural areas where homophobia might be more prevalent anyway. Unfortunately it wasn't really dealt with by management.

Certainly this should be stamped upon very hard indeed. To the point, I'd say, of being gross misconduct.

You'd think with Pride liveries all over the place and quite a lot of LGBT+ traincrew on Twitter this had calmed down, but sadly not I guess.

 

[ComUtoR]

That's something that should have "reasonable adjustments" made to avoid sex discrimination.

What about company issuing prayer mats or not giving time off religious matters. Should the 'Call to Prayer' be sounded over the PA ?

Now you're talking have you ever thought about a political future?

Unfortunately I am too much of an Autocrat

I completely agree with most of what has been said.

However, I have heard first hand from a couple of LGBT drivers that they have experienced some very bad discrimination and bullying. This was in quite rural areas where homophobia might be more prevalent anyway. Unfortunately it wasn't really dealt with by management.

So I think maybe the industry just needs to make sure that people who enter the profession aren't leaving at a higher rate than a certain demographic, and that any bullying or discrimination is dealt with swiftly.

What about my Christian beliefs ? They aren't represented and there are certain ways of life that I don't agree with. I feel under-represented my faith is being ignored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about company issuing prayer mats or not giving time off religious matters.

Adjustments have to be reasonable. Providing toilet facilties for staff is totally reasonable - every business should do that. A loco is a big thing, providing a small toilet cubicle and a chemical toilet is not a difficult thing to do. Indeed didn't 37s used to have one in the nose?

An example of a situation where there is no reasonable adjustment would be to allow a wheelchair user to become a driver - they couldn't do key elements of the job e.g. going trackside. Nor could a blind person for very obvious reasons.

However, I would expect a company to end up in trouble if a Muslim (or Christian) was told they could not pray during their PNB, or if they were in receipt of bullying for doing so and this was not dealt with very firmly.

Should the 'Call to Prayer' be sounded over the PA ?

Now I think this is getting a little silly.

 

[ExRes]

Unfortunately I am too much of an Autocrat

I would argue with you but I'm too scared

 

[Lost property]

Well if you declare you are Bisexual, surely that conforms with the Equal Ops criteria

As for the "white, middle aged men " demographic, probably the most boring, insular, unwilling to change you can encounter.

 

[ComUtoR]

An example of a situation where there is no reasonable adjustment would be to allow a wheelchair user to become a driver - they couldn't do key elements of the job e.g. going trackside.

Wheelchair user's are still entitled to an interview

As for the "white, middle aged men " demographic, probably the most boring, insular, unwilling to change you can encounter.

That's unfair. People can't help the way they were born and should not be forced to change their beliefs or culture.

 

[ExRes]

A loco is a big thing, providing a small toilet cubicle and a chemical toilet is not a difficult thing to do.

You need to get inside a few locos and find the empty spaces

 

[Horizon22]

That's something that should have "reasonable adjustments" made to avoid sex discrimination. It's not really acceptable for people to need to urinate in the bushes because the company can't be bothered to provide facilities either on the loco or at places where PNBs take place.

PNB locations must have toilet facilities at all TOCs I'm aware of and is in driver agreements; otherwise it isn't a PNB location.

 

[ComUtoR]

A loco is a big thing, providing a small toilet cubicle and a chemical toilet is not a difficult thing to do

Excellent. Can you please provide the business case, show the costs, justify the staffing that need to provide the tanking services, submit the safety case, agree the engineering change, finance it via the DfT and provide a bowtie risk assessment for COSHH and RIDDOR please.

 

[Horizon22]

What about company issuing prayer mats or not giving time off religious matters. Should the 'Call to Prayer' be sounded over the PA ?


What about my Christian beliefs ? They aren't represented and there are certain ways of life that I don't agree with. I feel under-represented my faith is being ignored.

Religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act as I'm sure you know. That is not the same as expressing that religion actively.

I'm also sure you know the phrase "reasonable adjustments". And TOCs obviously use these for many elements. For example it is not a reasonable adjustment to configure the cab to allow a disabled individual who uses a wheelchair to drive a train.

You can disagree with things in life, but that is your own personal opinion and you would be representing the company as an employee.

 

[dk1]

PNB locations must have toilet facilities at all TOCs I'm aware of and is in driver agreements; otherwise it isn't a PNB location.

Spot on. Full working facilities have to be provided or else it cannot be utilised for a PNB. That includes not just male/female separate toilets but equipment for making tea/coffee and heating food plus refrigerator. At my TOC traincrews (like office staff) are also provided with free tea, coffee & filtered water at these locations and where possible fresh milk is provided too.

 

[Horizon22]

That's unfair. People can't help the way they were born and should not be forced to change their beliefs or culture.

No but diversity of individuals in a workforce has been proven to lead to added productivity whereas a more generic and less diverse workplace leads to issues of group-think and more resistant to change.

 

[ComUtoR]

Religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act as I'm sure you know. That is not the same as expressing that religion actively.

I'm also sure you know the phrase "reasonable adjustments". And TOCs obviously use these for many elements.

I would say that a company provided prayer mat would be reasonable.

You can disagree with things in life, but that is your own personal opinion and you would be representing the company as an employee.

Sounds like a threat. Can you confirm what you mean by this ? All views provided are my own. I have never declared my TOC and directly reported any post that highlights it.

'Reasonable' doesn't mean 'you must' it also means that the company decides what it reasonable and not the employee.

 

[renegademaster]

No but diversity of individuals in a workforce has been proven to lead to added productivity whereas a more generic and less diverse workplace leads to issues of group-think and more resistant to change.

A marketing team mabye but how would diversity quotas help improve something relatively rote and individual focused as train driving?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act as I'm sure you know. That is not the same as expressing that religion actively.

One principle most people apply when dealing with a "liberal paradox", i.e. a conflict between two protected characteristics, is that the one where the person has no choice in the matter must be prioritised.

Thus religion comes below sexuality, for example, because following a religion (and precisely how you follow it) is a choice, whereas your sexuality is something you are born with and you have no choice in the matter. As such, professing an anti-LGBT+ view (for example) in work in a manner that may upset LGBT+ people who work there is likely to quite rightly result in the sack, regardless of whether one might feel the reason for this view is their religion.

(Free speech is important - but free speech is not immune from consequences - not even in the US!)

 

[Flange Squeal]

Spot on. Full working facilities have to be provided or else it cannot be utilised for a PNB. That includes not just male/female separate toilets but equipment for making tea/coffee and heating food plus refrigerator. At my TOC traincrews (like office staff) are also provided with free tea, coffee & filtered water at these locations and where possible fresh milk is provided too.

Sounds like some of the requirements vary from TOC to TOC, for example the separate male/female facilities, as we certainly have some active PNB points (not obscure rarely used ones either) with just a single unisex toilet.

 

[ComUtoR]

No but diversity of individuals in a workforce has been proven to lead to added productivity

Source please.

whereas a more generic and less diverse workplace leads to issues of group-think and more resistant to change.

Again source please.

Are 'White Males' incapable of critical thinking ? Should diversity be enforced ? Do you know why some candidates apply and others don't ? Do you know why employer's target specific demographics and do you support it ?

Generally, I thought this was really simple and the BBC are being too WOKE, have an agenda, and White Males have it too hard.

Thus religion comes below sexuality, for example, because following a religion (and precisely how you follow it) is a choice, whereas your sexuality is something you are born with and you have no choice in the matter.

Can you provide any evidence that the protected characteristics are hierarchical ? What if I was Black and Jewish ?

What if I was a female in a specific religion that has the threat of an honour killing because I don't marry someone or 'choose' to live my life in a certain way. Is that still 'Choice' ?

 

[Falcon1200]

There are quite a lot of industries were one gender, demographic dominates.

Indeed; One of my female railway colleagues used to complain about the lack of women in the industry, to which I replied that when my children were in primary school, the only man in the entire place was the janitor. As has been said, some types of work simply appeal more to one gender than the other.