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BBC - Train Crew Shortages article

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theironroad

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Interesting article with a breakdown by TOC, though there is a lot more to train crew shortages than the article goes into, especially during disruption.

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35293307
Crew shortages cause almost one in 10 delays and cancellations on Britain's railways, the BBC has learned.

They accounted for 9.42% of 1.93 million delays and cancellations from 1 April 2013 to 12 December 2015, figures from the Office of Rail and Road show.

Govia Thameslink Railway - which operates Southern, Thameslink and Gatwick Express services - had the highest rate, at 13.59%.

London Midland and First Transpennine Express were the next worst on 13.53%.
Virgin East Coast had the lowest rate, at 2.63%, while Virgin West Coast's was 3.69%.

Crew shortages are caused by sickness, leave, mistakes drawing up rosters and problems transporting drivers and other staff to trains in time for departure...
 
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455driver

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A very blinkered view, but what do we expect from rail exspurt Woolmare.
 

Tetchytyke

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A very blinkered view

I thought it was pretty much on the money. Overtime is cheaper than employing enough staff to do the job, so overtime it is. Minimum turnaround times are cheaper than building robustness into the staff rotas, so the minimum it is.

On London Midland if a guard or driver is delayed in the morning that roster will still be delayed five hours later. Late evening punctuality on London Midland is diabolical. It seems to be the same on GN/Thameslink.

Interesting that the three worst performing TOCs are all part-owned by Keolis, isn't it.
 

BestWestern

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How does a new Driver shadowing an existing Driver 'potentially lead to more shortages'?! The newbie just goes along with them, doing whatever they're booked to do.

I'd have thought the question overall was a rather obvious one, which doesn't really need Rent-a-quote Wolmar's insight to answer it. Bit like asking 'Why does a shortage of petrol make my car stop?'.
 
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Deepgreen

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How does a new Driver shadowing an existing Driver 'potentially lead to more shortages'?! The newbie just goes along with them, doing whatever they're booked to do.

I'd have thought the question overall was a rather obvious one, which doesn't really need Rent-a-quote Wolmar's insight to answer it. Bit like asking 'Why does a shortage of petrol make my car stop?'.

Was the question not why a lack of drivers causes cancellations, but why has the lack of drivers arisen at all?
 

DeeGee

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First Transpennine Express said:
[We're] focused on increasing the resilience of the company by recruiting more drivers across the network

Funny, because as far as us that travel with you understand it, you'll resolve much of your issue by not having ****ed off so much of your train crew that they're working to rule.
 

essexjohn

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A very blinkered view, but what do we expect from rail exspurt Woolmare.

The article consists largely of statistics from official sources and quotes from TOC, union and DfT spokespeople. The article is attributed to Justin Parkinson, not to Christian Woolmar who only comments that drivers tend to travel farther from home to work than they might have done in years past.
Maybe there's someone else a little blind to what they don't want to read?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A very blinkered view, but what do we expect from rail exspurt Woolmare.

The article consists largely of statistics from official sources and quotes from TOC, union and DfT spokespeople. The article is attributed to Justin Parkinson, not to Christian Woolmar who only comments that drivers tend to travel farther from home to work than they might have done in years past.
Maybe there's someone else a little blind to what they don't want to read?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry about that, I tried to edit my post to note that Woolmar had also mentioned "shadowing".
 

jon0844

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Of late I think the BBC has been pretty fair on things relating to the railway (and other industries), steering clear of the sensationalism you'd get anywhere else.

For one it tries to explain things and answer questions with something other than 'years of mismanagement' or bringing politics into it.

The problem is, do people read the BBC Magazine articles or the stuff that gets shared on social media (usually linking to the likes of the Mirror, Guardian or Daily Mail). All publications with clear agendas.
 
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hulabaloo

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Why should TOCs make big investments to train new drivers when a) they may lose their franchise anyway and b) once trained up the driver goes to another company for more money?

I don't know what the solution is, perhaps a central pool of drivers trained and leased by a "train university"?

Hell, I don't know enough about all of this to really comment!
 

Dave1987

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The problem faced by the industry as a whole is that it takes so long to train a driver from off the street to fully passed out and productive. It takes about a year plus any additional route knowledge or traction training. TOCs do not want to have to train any more drivers than absolutely necessary. After all I'm sure the public would go ballistic if a TOC had loads of spare drivers sat at various locations ready to work a service at a moments notice, as that would be classed as wasting resources and money. There is a very fine line between having enough and having too many. That's why TOCs rely on overtime a lot. It's just the way it is.
 

Clip

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I suppose when the TOCs train up enough staff to have spare turns at every depot and main terminus there will be uproar about paying staff to sit around doing nothing.
 

HH

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Like most things, the truth is never pure and rarely simple.

Yes drivers are very expensive; the nature of franchise competition dictates that bidders will try to keep them to a level, although they understand that they will also be judged on service robustness, so cannot bid very low levels.

Most TOCs try to keep the numbers at what they think they need. TOCs generally want some rest day working, because not only would covering everything all the time be very expensive, but around 40% of the drivers rely on a regular supply of overtime.

Keeping the right numbers is however, harder than it may seem. Firstly turnover is hard to predict. You have to predict retirements (no longer a given at 65), poaching by other TOCs or simply the desire to move, ill health, safety incidents, internal transfers, promotions, even the number of trainees who will fail to pass out successfully.

There are also temporary shortfalls, both planned (training for new trains or changed routes) and unplanned (flu epidemics). Then there's incidents on the day, whether to the service itself or general incidents that affect staff (like a road being closed).

On top of this is human error. I have seen several instances where the calculations of required drivers contain mistakes; while it's not rocket science, the people carrying out these calculations are not rocket scientists.

So, temporary shortages are like death and taxes - inevitable. Nevertheless a number of franchises do have insufficient drivers. DfT recognise this and have recently commissioned a study to look into the matter.
 

thejuggler

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I wonder if TOCs have ever spoken to the major airlines to see how they manage their resources?

Pilots take a long time to train, salaries appear to be similar to train drivers, but there doesn't appear to be large wage discrepancies or wage inflation in the industry.

I know pilots can be contracted on an annualised hours basis and wonder if this would work for drivers?
 
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ivanhoe

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Does the 12 month training in the UK for a driver compare favourably or otherwise with say France, Spain and Germany, for example?
 

The Ham

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Could one possible option could be to have a national training system which is funded by all the TOC's based on the number of drivers that they need to run their services (assuming zero overtime)?

Although it would mean that there was still a lot of training when someone started at an individual TOC (due to route learning and learning the required units) it would spread the load of training costs between everyone and mean that the individual TOC who took them on as a fresh driver was taking a much smaller risk.

Although it maybe seen as unfair in that TPE and LM may need the most drivers now, I think that in the long run all the TOC's would benefit. As those who currently poach trained drivers from other TOC's would be having to pay towards training of drivers who they are likely to need at some point in the future.

I can see if a TOC has the choice to pay to train staff or use their "training budget" to enable them poach trained staff (i.e. higher rates of pay) it is less risky to do the latter than the former.
 

miami

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I wonder if TOCs have ever spoken to the major airlines to see how they manage their resources?

Pilots take a long time to train, salaries appear to be similar to train drivers, but there doesn't appear to be large wage discrepancies or wage inflation in the industry.

I know pilots can be contracted on an annualised hours basis and wonder if this would work for drivers?

https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/airline-pilot
The starting salary for a captain with a medium-sized airline may range from £57,000 to £78,000, while those with the major operators could earn from £97,000 to more than £140,000.
....
Pilots are restricted to 900 flying hours per year

Train drivers get similar wages?

On the other almost all train drivers return home at the end of their shift. Pilots, especially long haul ones, can end up being away from home for days.

Pilots have to turn up (and are paid) a long time before their flight, train drivers don't.

Pilots tend to fly from a small number of home bases for the size of the airline. Train drivers are spread all over the place in depots, meaning that you'll need a higher ratio spare:active drivers

Cancelling planes tends to come with a larger financial penalty - a single cancelled London-Montreal return flight could mean £250,000 in EU261 compensation payments.

I don't think the two are anywhere near comparable.
 

ExRes

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I admit that I'm an ex driver, very happily, and that things may have changed slightly, but where does this 'Train Driver in 12 months' idea come from ?, I'd like to see the plan written down for recruitment to productive driver in 12 months, then I'd make damned sure I wasn't travelling on his/her train
 

SpacePhoenix

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How common is it for TOCs to poach drivers (or any other train crew - or other staff) from each other?
 

tony6499

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You can't stop drivers moving to wherever they want as it is part of free movement , maybe the TOC's should ensure the working conditions are such that drivers don't want to move ?

This sort of thing is a result of the way the railway was privatised and something as in many things that were discovered afterwards were never considered.
 

bnm

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How common is it for TOCs to poach drivers (or any other train crew - or other staff) from each other?

Is it not the possibility that drivers are the ones going where the money and/or work/life balance is better rather than TOCs actively poaching?

Say, for instance, moving away from London and the South East (where headline pay maybe more, but cost of living higher), to drive DMUs in the west country?
 
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455driver

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How common is it for TOCs to poach drivers (or any other train crew - or other staff) from each other?

West Coast, East Coast and Cross Country (for 3) don't normally train drivers, preferring to 'poach' qualified drivers from commuter TOCs, or as it was known under BR when it was all one Company, promotion! :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I admit that I'm an ex driver, very happily, and that things may have changed slightly, but where does this 'Train Driver in 12 months' idea come from ?, I'd like to see the plan written down for recruitment to productive driver in 12 months, then I'd make damned sure I wasn't travelling on his/her train
12 months is easily do-able if the driver is restricted to basic/core routes, I don't understand the concern!
 

scotsman

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How common is it for TOCs to poach drivers (or any other train crew - or other staff) from each other?

Very. It's cheaper to pay higher wages than other TOCs on your patch than it is train drivers from scratch - but, more importantly, it's far quicker. Shortfalls can be rectified quicker and easier, and you get a return on your (smaller) investment sooner.

That's why XC pays the highest basic drivers salary in the UK - £56,544 for a 35 hour week. EMT pay £44,805 and Northern £41,625 for the same.
 

bnm

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West Coast, East Coast and Cross Country (for 3) don't normally train drivers, preferring to 'poach' qualified drivers from commuter TOCs, or as it was known under BR when it was all one Company, promotion! :lol:

Is there active 'poaching' or merely advertising through the usual channels?

For example, a current XC Drivers job require the applicant to have been driving for their current employer for 18 months as well as to live within 1 hour of the relevant depot.
 
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ExRes

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12 months is easily do-able if the driver is restricted to basic/core routes, I don't understand the concern!

As I say, I'm an ex so I'll happily bow to yours or any other current drivers knowledge of the industry, but I find it very difficult to imagine that a newbie could manage rules, safety, minder driving, traction and routes within 12 months
 

Dave1987

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I wonder if TOCs have ever spoken to the major airlines to see how they manage their resources?

Pilots take a long time to train, salaries appear to be similar to train drivers, but there doesn't appear to be large wage discrepancies or wage inflation in the industry.

I know pilots can be contracted on an annualised hours basis and wonder if this would work for drivers?

Pilot training is completely different to train driver training. Prospective pilots are required to take out huge loans to pay for their training, around £100k, and are not actually employed by the airlines until they have qualified. They also have to get type rated on aircraft which some have to do off their own back unpaid. Then once they have qualified they are appointed as a First Officer which isn't that well paid and they have huge debts to pay off (usually a house has to be put up as security) but there are loads and loads of people who want to fly and are happy to pay for it. So comparing the two doesn't really apply.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Well all I do is go in at the time that I'm required, do what I have to do & go home, that's it.

I don't do overtime or rest days, I find the shifts too long, mind blowingly boring and monotonously repetitive already and they're never grateful either, also SWT cut the rest day ROP to a basic days pay, which after tax & deductions is actually less, so it's not worth getting more tired/fatigued for less than a normal day's pay.

They'll always find some mug to do it anyway.

The standard of work at our depot is dire, so not interested either, also SWT is the driver training ground for GWR & XC, which seem to have no problems in taking drivers who're anxious to leave SWT...
 

The Ham

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Well all I do is go in at the time that I'm required, do what I have to do & go home, that's it.

I don't do overtime or rest days, I find the shifts too long, mind blowingly boring and monotonously repetitive already and they're never grateful either, also SWT cut the rest day ROP to a basic days pay, which after tax & deductions is actually less, so it's not worth getting more tired/fatigued for less than a normal day's pay.

They'll always find some mug to do it anyway.

The standard of work at our depot is dire, so not interested either, also SWT is the driver training ground for GWR & XC, which seem to have no problems in taking drivers who're anxious to leave SWT...

Yet SWT (7.55%) are not much worse on the table than GWR (6.59%), are better than the average (9.42%) and are significantly better than XC (10.40%). As such it would appear that SWT are doing OK out of it (and better than XC at any rate).
 
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