Bee Network - list of franchises awarded (Tranche 3 included)

[Leedsbusman]

Only going off what we were told by our employer at the time the T2 results were announced, that they made a terrible mistake not bidding on all 3 depots.

GNW may well have only bid for one but it seems highly unlikely only Stagecoach bid for all 3. As shown by GNW winning both in Tranche 1, Stagecoach both in Tranche 2, Metroline the four convention ones in Tranche 3 it was always likely they would go in batches as there was no limit on what anyone could win. Stockport is the exception as Stagecoach is probably the only bidder who could manage given the new depot is unlikely to be ready in time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

GNW may well have only bid for one but it seems highly unlikely only Stagecoach bid for all 3. As shown by GNW winning both in Tranche 1, Stagecoach both in Tranche 2, Metroline the four convention ones in Tranche 3 it was always likely they would go in batches as there was no limit on what anyone could win. Stockport is the exception as Stagecoach is probably the only bidder who could manage given the new depot is unlikely to be ready in time.

Indeed, it is the case that nothing can be done yet about the site of the new bus depot until the existing land users relocate to the land area in Hazel Grove.

 

[py_megapixel]

Is it likely the new Volvo fleet for Stockport will be arriving in Bee Network spec then? Or is it too late to amend the order?

 

[Tim33160]

What routes will not be included in Bee Network?

All routes currently operated from depots outside GM - they come into the GM area and need to comply with TfGM standards hence the need for Bus Permits

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Stockport depot. The list at the top of this thread predates the introduction of the 379 in 2020. Notice the 312 isn't on the list and the 328 is on there for examp
I'm still a little surprised that the 313 and 368 are under the Wythenshawe franchise. If a Stockport route was to be moved there surely the 11 is a better bet as there will be less dead mileage than moving the 313 and 368.

I note what you say above, but 2020 was four years ago and it surprises me that the list predated that time period.

With regards to the 313 route you mention, I totally agree with what you say as the vast majority of that route is actually in the Stockport area.

All routes currently operated from depots outside GM - they come into the GM area and need to comply with TfGM standards hence the need for Bus Permits

Does it follow conversely that any service operated from depots inside the Greater Manchester area will need bus permits to operate the parts of any route that passes outside the borders of Greater Manchester from the adjoining local authorities?

 

[Tim33160]

Does it follow conversely that any service operated from depots inside the Greater Manchester area will need bus permits to operate the parts of any route that passes outside the borders of Greater Manchester from the adjoining local authorities?

Outside the GM area, all bus routes need to be registered with the Traffic Commissioners as previous. Thus 100 and 184 are registered: NP - 3116 20 March 2024 (objection deadline 10 April 2024) (PDF, 245 KB, 16 pages)

Section 3.1 – Registration of New Services
PC0003681/1000 GREATER MANCHESTER BUSES SOUTH LTD, HEAD OFFICE, HYDE ROAD, ARDWICK, MANCHESTER, M12 6JS From: Manchester To: Warrington Via: Name or No.: 100 / 100 Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 24 March 2024 Other details: Boundary Crossing Franchised Service
PC0003681/1002 GREATER MANCHESTER BUSES SOUTH LTD, HEAD OFFICE, HYDE ROAD, ARDWICK, MANCHESTER, M12 6JS From: Oldham To: Huddersfield Via: Name or No.: 184 Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 24 March 2024 Other details: Boundary Crossing Franchised Service

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65fc6bc7a6c0f7001aef9217/np_3116_20_March_2024.pdf

N&Ps have been carrying this weekly:
Section 1 – Special Notices On 24th September 2023 the Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) Franchising Scheme for buses came into force using powers granted by the Transport Act 2000. The initial area for the scheme (Tranche 1) covers Bolton, Wigan, parts of Bury, Salford, Manchester. The Combined Authority, through Transport for Greater Manchester, are now responsible for the registration of the majority of the local bus services that operate within the franchise area and they will not appear in the Notices and Proceedings. Services that have been transferred to GMCA will show as ‘Admin Cancelled’ on the gov.uk website

Note: while the weekly Notices and Proceedings lists changes to bus services regionally on a weekly basis, TfGM are apparently not publishing this data so there is no public historical record available.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/traffic-commissioner-notices-and-proceedings

 

[northwichcat]

News such as this is what I expected to form part of the programme content of the 1830 BBC TV local news programme this evening, as the Tranche 3 area covers a very large area of the southern part of Greater Manchester with a regular viewing clientele, but absolutely nothing mas mentioned in this peak-time programme.

I think most people only care about when the bus services are changing, rather than whose legal details are on a Bee Network branded bus. I bet most Metrolink passengers don't know who the franchise holder is, or care who actually has it.

As I understand it under TUPE law, staff have their terms and conditions protected so yes Metroline will have to pay the same rates.

Yes. If you get TUPE from one company to another your contract remains exactly the same. However, if current Stagecoach drivers want to move to another depot to remain with Stagecoach, they may have to resign and to apply for a vacancy with Stagecoach.

Completely independent of any depot. So would be an obvious place to use.

Registered company addresses often don't belong to the premises a business operates out of.

Outside the GM area, all bus routes need to be registered with the Traffic Commissioners as previous. Thus 100 and 184 are registered: NP - 3116 20 March 2024 (objection deadline 10 April 2024) (PDF, 245 KB, 16 pages)

Section 3.1 – Registration of New Services
PC0003681/1000 GREATER MANCHESTER BUSES SOUTH LTD, HEAD OFFICE, HYDE ROAD, ARDWICK, MANCHESTER, M12 6JS From: Manchester To: Warrington Via: Name or No.: 100 / 100 Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 24 March 2024 Other details: Boundary Crossing Franchised Service
PC0003681/1002 GREATER MANCHESTER BUSES SOUTH LTD, HEAD OFFICE, HYDE ROAD, ARDWICK, MANCHESTER, M12 6JS From: Oldham To: Huddersfield Via: Name or No.: 184 Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 24 March 2024 Other details: Boundary Crossing Franchised Service

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65fc6bc7a6c0f7001aef9217/np_3116_20_March_2024.pdf

N&Ps have been carrying this weekly:
Section 1 – Special Notices On 24th September 2023 the Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) Franchising Scheme for buses came into force using powers granted by the Transport Act 2000. The initial area for the scheme (Tranche 1) covers Bolton, Wigan, parts of Bury, Salford, Manchester. The Combined Authority, through Transport for Greater Manchester, are now responsible for the registration of the majority of the local bus services that operate within the franchise area and they will not appear in the Notices and Proceedings. Services that have been transferred to GMCA will show as ‘Admin Cancelled’ on the gov.uk website

Note: while the weekly Notices and Proceedings lists changes to bus services regionally on a weekly basis, TfGM are apparently not publishing this data so there is no public historical record available.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/traffic-commissioner-notices-and-proceedings

Interesting Stagecoach are taking on those routes, which will mean their buses will become a sight in Huddersfield (an area they previously pulled out of) and Warrington (possibly for the first time?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think most people only care about when the bus services are changing, rather than whose legal details are on a Bee Network branded bus. I bet most Metrolink passengers don't know who the franchise holder is, or care who actually has it.

I suppose contributors to websites where bus information is the main topic of conversation will see bus updating holding a much higher priority in their minds than is the case of the general travelling public.

On 7th April 2024, two bus numbers will change in order to fit in with the service numbering sequences in their particular areas:-
Service 129 will be renumbered as the 553 service
Service 362 will be renumbered as the 632 service.

 

[anthony263]

The ComfortDelGro subsidiary NAT in South Wales is losing a significant number of franchised routes on April 1st, so there may be some buses available from that operation.

Looks like we will have some buses freed up yes . Tommorow oy buses running out of taffs Well depot will be enviro 200s. The metrocitys and optare solos going to Cardiff and Swansea depots.

Dont know whats happening with the enviro 200s after Tommorow nor the 12 plate citaros.

Bit gutted as I was hoping to have my usual metrocity on the 600/89's Tommorow

 

[mayneway]

Yes. If you get TUPE from one company to another your contract remains exactly the same. However, if current Stagecoach drivers want to move to another depot to remain with Stagecoach, they may have to resign and to apply for a vacancy with Stagecoach.

Not quite.
Stagecoach drivers are free to request an internal transfer anytime up until the day of the takeover.

Drivers at queens road and Oldham transferred the day of the changeover some wanting to stay with First, some with GNW. Others who had been on loan to Bolton, Wigan and heywood depots since last September returned to Queens on Saturday 23rd ready to Tupe over to stagecoach.

I would imagine Metroline will visit stagecoach depots in the run up to January 5th and speak to drivers, but there will be some who will want to stay with stagecoach.

 

[greenline712]

I suspect that Metroline will bring a Unite rep with them to extol the virtues of Metroline as an employer . . . in London they're not the best, but also not the worst. TUPE does mean that your pay AND conditions are protected, so those days in the 1990s when Stagecoach rolled into town and immediately worsened conditions will not be repeated . . . indeed, that's one of the reason that TUPE was born.

Herts CC is the only other LTA (Local Transport Authority) that has assumed the registration function of the Traffic Commissioners, and they publish a summary every two weeks (not weekly, N&Ps are published fortnightly). I suspect that TfGM are also obliged to do this . . . perhaps a specific request to TfGM asking about this?

My understanding about Tranches 1 and 2 (not from me, but from a local resident), is that reliability of routes within Tranche 1 is still poor, whereas routes within Tranche 2 are performing acceptably. Until TfGM publishes results officially, rumour and speculation is all we have.

As a busman who started in NBC days (1975), saw deregulation, privatisation and consolidation, and remembers the "glory days" of the late 1990s and 2000s . . . my fear with franchising (as with tendering in London) is that the transfer of control to LTAs will remove the entreprenurial instinct of busmen following the market. In London, what may be good ideas are buried in the need for consultation, such that any momentum towards change is stalled.

However, maybe the industry needs a period of consolidation just now . . . and if an LTA is to take responsibility for the network (AND for the finances, don't forget), then maybe we should wait and see. I'm just glad I'm an observer now . . .

 

[Man of Kent]

Herts CC is the only other LTA (Local Transport Authority) that has assumed the registration function of the Traffic Commissioners, and they publish a summary every two weeks (not weekly, N&Ps are published fortnightly). I suspect that TfGM are also obliged to do this . . . perhaps a specific request to TfGM asking about this?

West Midlands and West of England Combined Authorities are also now the registration authorities for their area, though I don't know if they are publishing any equivalent to N&P. However, TfGM will be more analogous to the situation in London, in that from January 2025, there are no registered services, only permit operations. Interim arrangements are of course different.

 

[mangad]

My understanding about Tranches 1 and 2 (not from me, but from a local resident), is that reliability of routes within Tranche 1 is still poor, whereas routes within Tranche 2 are performing acceptably. Until TfGM publishes results officially, rumour and speculation is all we have.

Transport for Greater Manchester started publishing performance data not long ago.

Bus punctuality reports

We know that buses turning up on time is very important to you. You can see a seven-day snapshot of how bus services are performing on punctuality

tfgm.com

Whilst not going down to route level, their data shows services are running better than they were before franchising.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Herts CC is the only other LTA (Local Transport Authority) that has assumed the registration function of the Traffic Commissioners, and they publish a summary every two weeks (not weekly, N&Ps are published fortnightly). I suspect that TfGM are also obliged to do this . . . perhaps a specific request to TfGM asking about this?

TfGM is a franchised operation so there are no bus registrations for it to publish.

 

[northwichcat]

TUPE does mean that your pay AND conditions are protected, so those days in the 1990s when Stagecoach rolled into town and immediately worsened conditions will not be repeated . . . indeed, that's one of the reason that TUPE was born.

In similar terms if you have a contract of employment saying it starts on 1st January 1999 with Stagecoach Manchester, then every condition of that remains as you transfer to Metroline, unless it's been superseeded by other communication e.g. a letter informing you of a pay rise.

 

[JD2168]

It will be interesting to see what vehicles Metroline bring in new to their areas. As they appear to like Wrights then perhaps the Electroliner & Kite will make an appearance in Manchester rather than more ADL electrics.

With regards the drivers moving some may have already left Stagecoach & moved to Go Ahead or First & may have not wanted to go back to Stagecoach meaning they went where that operator was now running.

 

[Busoccultation]

It will be interesting to see what vehicles Metroline bring in new to their areas. As they appear to like Wrights then perhaps the Electroliner & Kite will make an appearance in Manchester rather than more ADL electrics.

Metroline does tend to favour Volvo products as well with a large number of BZL single decks that are starting to enter service in London recently with more already on order, while they haven't ordered the BZL double decks for London just yet I wouldn't be surprised if they do so in the near future.

If Metroline does order any new electric buses for Manchester themselves and based on what's being ordered for London, then the chances are likely to be either Wright Electroliner or/and Volvo BZL range as their first choice order, with ADL tends to be back of the pecking order for Metroline orders in London since 2014 for their double deckers in particular.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How well do those buses favoured by Metroline compare from a passenger travelling experience to those latest buses that Stagecoach brought into service?

 

[bussnapperwm]

West Midlands and West of England Combined Authorities are also now the registration authorities for their area, though I don't know if they are publishing any equivalent to N&P. However, TfGM will be more analogous to the situation in London, in that from January 2025, there are no registered services, only permit operations. Interim arrangements are of course different.

West Midlands CA publish a forghtnighly PDF of a excel spreadsheet containing what registrations have been received. It's on the Transport for West Midlands website - https://www.tfwm.org.uk/who-we-are/...rvice-registrations-within-the-west-midlands/

Bus Service Registrations within the West Midlands
From Sunday 5 March 2023, the Traffic Commissioner’s Office has delegated bus service registration powers for services within the West Midlands Enhanced Partnership to Transport for West Midlands (TfWM).

This means that for local bus services that operate wholly within the West Midlands area Transport for West Midlands (TfWM) receives and publishes these registrations on this webpage on a two-weekly basis. It is important to note that this power does not give TfWM powers to decline or cancel registrations unless the service is either registered at short notice or does not meet a requirement set out in the Enhanced Partnership.

 

[Leedsbusman]

How well do those buses favoured by Metroline compare from a passenger travelling experience to those latest buses that Stagecoach brought into service?

Surely the new buses will be to TFGM’s spec?

 

[Tim33160]

By 2025 all local buses will be best-in-class and part of the Bee Network.
Eventually, we want all Bee Network buses to be:

• Yellow, featuring the Bee Network logo.
• Modern and electric or low-emission, with USB-charging ports.
• Fully accessible, with ramps, two wheelchair bays, hearing induction loops, anti-slip flooring and audio and visual announcement systems – including announcements of next stop and final destination, plus other features.
• Cleaned regularly to high standards.

https://tfgm.com/the-bee-network#bee-network click down to vehicle standards

 

[Leedsbusman]

By 2025 all local buses will be best-in-class and part of the Bee Network.
Eventually, we want all Bee Network buses to be:

• Yellow, featuring the Bee Network logo.
• Modern and electric or low-emission, with USB-charging ports.
• Fully accessible, with ramps, two wheelchair bays, hearing induction loops, anti-slip flooring and audio and visual announcement systems – including announcements of next stop and final destination, plus other features.
• Cleaned regularly to high standards.

https://tfgm.com/the-bee-network#bee-network click down to vehicle standards

That doesn’t sound particularly best in class!

 

[baza585]

They don’t sell to the winning operator they sell to TFGM. The vehicles enter a ‘pool’ and it’s up to TFGM planners where they go.

Allegedly Diamond made a handsome profit from selling their buses and depot to TFGM.
The ex Oxford Hybrids and the Scanias were also bought for a price exceeding their actual value because TFGM was desperate to have enough vehicles to meet needs.

Now apparently Queens road and Middleton have been short of suitable vehicles in the last few days - with Middleton coming under fire for using a double decker on the 125 route. Local councillors have stepped in forcing TFGM to promise it won’t happen again.

So are you saying that Stagecoach can only sell any excess fleet to TfGM?

I'm struggling to see how this pool of vehicles works. Tenderers will assume a certain fleet, with known fuel costs, spare part costs etc.

If they get pooled vehicles from TfGM, do the tenderers take the financial risk, or do they only get the pooled buses if they can't get any other buses e.g. late deliveries.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Scanias or the ex Oxford hybrids as part of my long term fleet (fuel costs and reliability respectively).

For what it's worth I still think Stagecoach will find homes in its existing fleets for any decent stock at the depots they have list in Tranche 3. Or are they not permitted to do that either?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That doesn’t sound particularly best in class!

What's not good about those features?

 

[northwichcat]

What's not good about those features?

I'd say they look like an improvement over what some operators currently offer. A clean bus wouldn't be guaranteed on the D&G 385 and USB charging points or next calling stops are 99.9% unlikely to be present. However, having seen what Bus Eireann offer on their new vehicles this week it doesn't sound like TfGM are setting a high bar. One thing that did confuse me on a new Bus Eireann decker was where the stop buttons are - then I realised every pair of seats has a stop button, so no need to stand up or reach across to press one.

 

[Leedsbusman]

What's not good about those features?

Nothing - but best in class surely means something better than the norm. The spec on the Mersey hydrogen buses seems better to me.

So are you saying that Stagecoach can only sell any excess fleet to TfGM?

I'm struggling to see how this pool of vehicles works. Tenderers will assume a certain fleet, with known fuel costs, spare part costs etc.

If they get pooled vehicles from TfGM, do the tenderers take the financial risk, or do they only get the pooled buses if they can't get any other buses e.g. late deliveries.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Scanias or the ex Oxford hybrids as part of my long term fleet (fuel costs and reliability respectively).

For what it's worth I still think Stagecoach will find homes in its existing fleets for any decent stock at the depots they have list in Tranche 3. Or are they not permitted to do that either?

Existing operators were invited to submit some or all of their existing fleet into the fleet pool at an agreed price formula. Bidders are obliged to take these on. Likewise in five years time the next winners will be obliged to buy the then existing fleet (excluding those which become too old).

If Stagecoach has entered anything in that fleet as far as I know it is obliged to sell them to the new operator at the agreed price and is responsible for handing over them in an acceptable condition.

 

[baza585]

Nothing - but best in class surely means something better than the norm. The spec on the Mersey hydrogen buses seems better to me.


Existing operators were invited to submit some or all of their existing fleet into the fleet pool at an agreed price formula. Bidders are obliged to take these on. Likewise in five years time the next winners will be obliged to buy the then existing fleet (excluding those which become too old).

If Stagecoach has entered anything in that fleet as far as I know it is obliged to sell them to the new operator at the agreed price and is responsible for handing over them in an acceptable condition.

Thank you for the clarification.

Were bidders aware of what was in the pool before they had to submit a bid? Is what is in the pool public knowledge?

 

[mayneway]

So are you saying that Stagecoach can only sell any excess fleet to TfGM?

I'm struggling to see how this pool of vehicles works. Tenderers will assume a certain fleet, with known fuel costs, spare part costs etc.

If they get pooled vehicles from TfGM, do the tenderers take the financial risk, or do they only get the pooled buses if they can't get any other buses e.g. late deliveries.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want the Scanias or the ex Oxford hybrids as part of my long term fleet (fuel costs and reliability respectively).

For what it's worth I still think Stagecoach will find homes in its existing fleets for any decent stock at the depots they have list in Tranche 3. Or are they not permitted to do that either?

Pretty much yes. No deal is done between the current operator at a depot and the one coming in on takeover.

Negotiations take place between TFGM and the depot owner/operator to purchase the depot and any operating equipment such as washes, fuel pumps etc. the operator then has the choice to add any vehicles to negations. Vehicles then enter the vehicle pool and are either purchased by the incoming operator or loaned until subsequent vehicles are sourced.

So diamond sold the StreetDecks, E200’s and Citaros to TFGM, they were entered into the vehicle pool and GNW decided to take them on.

GNW has sold the Scania’s and B5 hybrids to TFGM and they have entered the vehicle pool, stagecoach have decided to loan them rather than purchase them until enough vehicles of their own are available.

Nothing - but best in class surely means something better than the norm. The spec on the Mersey hydrogen buses seems better to me.


Existing operators were invited to submit some or all of their existing fleet into the fleet pool at an agreed price formula. Bidders are obliged to take these on. Likewise in five years time the next winners will be obliged to buy the then existing fleet (excluding those which become too old).

If Stagecoach has entered anything in that fleet as far as I know it is obliged to sell them to the new operator at the agreed price and is responsible for han condition.

Operators are not obliged to take vehicles on. As I understand it the B5 hybrids and Scania’s currently being used by Stagecoach were sold to TFGM by GNW but have not been acquired by Stagecoach but are being loaned until vehicle orders are complete and delivered.
Like wise the B9’s will be returned to Go Ahead and are likely to move East.

My understanding about Tranches 1 and 2 (not from me, but from a local resident), is that reliability of routes within Tranche 1 is still poor, whereas routes within Tranche 2 are performing acceptably. Until TfGM publishes results officially, rumour and speculation is all we have.

Tranche 1 is still very heavily propped up by agency drivers because all three depots are incredibly short of drivers.

Tranche 2 depots are all overstaffed currently.

All depots currently in the Bee network with the exception of Rochdale are very short on vehicles which will also effect things.

 

[Lucy Michela]

Stagecoach had 6 of the large franchise areas and will end up with 4 plus 17 school bus contracts, so they are down overall

Diamond had 1 of the large franchise areas but will end up with 11 small franchises, I don't know if that is up, down or flat

First had 1 large area and has finished with 2 small areas and also 6 school bus contracts, so are down. The fact First Manchester's legal address is now a glorified portacabin is a big fall from running Oldham

Go North West had 1 large area and now have 2 large franchises, 1 small franchise and 3 school bus contracts so are up

Arriva had 1 large are plus parts of small areas and have nothing but supposedly didn't bid
Transdev Rosso had what is now 2 small areas and parts of some large areas and have nothing. It isn't known if they bid.
Metroline obviously had nothing in Greater Manchester and now have 4 large areas

Vision had around 4 of the small franchise areas and just ended up with 6 school bus contracts, so far the only school bus only operator in the Bee Network

Stotts & Nexus Move will have no public bus services when Tranche 3 starts. Belle Vue, Hattons & Warrington's Own Buses also lost/will lose their TfGM work, various school bus operators like Atlantic Travel are also gradually losing all their work

All that is outstanding are the 9 school bus contracts in the Tranche 3 area, will any small operators win any work?

Transdev didn't bid.

The business of Transdev has been rather anti-franchising for years, with them selling their London ops to RATP in 2014. From what I understand, it doesn't suit their way of operating the business

Indeed, it is the case that nothing can be done yet about the site of the new bus depot until the existing land users relocate to the land area in Hazel Grove.

I'm almost 100% certain part of the delay to announcement of T3 winners was because Go Ahead wanted Stockport.

 

[daodao]

Belle Vue, Hattons & Warrington's Own Buses also lost/will lose their TfGM work,

Other than the extension of one of Warrington's services from Altrincham to the Airport (as an extension of the X5), all of their services running into Greater Manchester (to Altrincham and Leigh) are cross-boundary services. Are you able to clarify which of these routes they will be losing to TfGM-franchised operators?