Beeching: The wonderful gift of hindsight.

[yorksrob]

Where duplicate routes exist I wonder how many still open routes should have been closed. My favourite example is the Uckfield line. Instead of the current route through Edenbridge Town with the benefit of hindsight wouldnt we really have been better retaining the route from Groombridge through East Grinstead to Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport? That is the major centre of employment for the area. Plus the line through Tunbridge Wells for a faster service to London?

I think that the Tunbridge Wells - Three Bridges route would certainly have come in useful for connectivity between those towns. However, it would have been a bit circuitous for Uckfield - London commuters. You could have sent them to London via Tonbridge of course, but according to the Route Utilisation Strategies, that's going to be full eventually anyway (along with the BML), so it's as well to keep an additional route into London. Then there are the settlements between Groombridge and Oxted that would have missed out.

 

[LE Greys]

You repeat a big myth about the modernisation plan. What any debate on the Doctor has to bear in mind is that the railway at the time was still operating under Victorian legislation which required it to carry anything brought to it at a fixed published rate. OK in an era of near monopoly but the lorry in between the wars changed all that. No prizes for guessing that road haulage could cherry pick traffic away from the railway as it knew the costs of its competitor! The Big 4's Square Deal campaign of the late 30's was all about repealing this legislation so that they could concentrate on profitable flows. The marshaling yards and trip working diesels were not ordered because British Railways Management were incompetent but because the law of the land insisted on the railways being a common carrier. It was the carriage of general merchandise that made the losses - nothing to do with rural branches.

Govt insisted on the railways doing something that was loss making to provide a national service but gave them no subsidy for it. The whole history of UK railways is littered with doing governments bidding without government money. Govt didn't repeal this legislation until the 1962 Transport Act.

The modernisation plan was never fully implemented anyway, only three quarters of the DMU's envisaged were ordered. It was 20 year plan that was cut to a 15 year on three years in and ditched at year 8. Yes there were problems with implementation etc but its general thrust was compliant with what Govt wanted in 1955.

There was also government pressure to get the plan through and see its first benefits before the next election (sound familiar? :roll: ). Planning wasn't exactly good either, waiting for the Pilot Scheme to report properly would have made more sense rather than rushing the order to the extent that they did. Really, we needed the National Traction Plan before the Modernisation Plan rather than after.

As for the closures, I can only say it was a failure of surveying and a mistake in not looking at contributory revenue. There was also the attitude to duplicate routes, in which the one 'handed over' generally died or at least got run down. How many major LMS lines closed in the London Midland Region compared with LNER lines for instance? It was also exceptionally London-centric. Hertfordshire turned from a lattice into a series of vertical stripes, making it exceptionally hard to cross the county by rail. Was that responsible for an increase in suburbanisation or a consequence of it?

Wider than that, did Beeching kill our town centres? As a consequence of suburbanisation, to get around suburbia, you need a car. Hence the growth of out-of-town shopping. That would not be such a pressing issue had we still been able to go from Welwyn to Dunstable by train.

I don't really believe that last paragraph, but it's plausible.

 

[mr williams]

And let's not forget that 2,000 miles of passenger lines had already closed prior to the Beeching Report in the period between 1954 and 1962.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Wider than that, did Beeching kill our town centres? As a consequence of suburbanisation, to get around suburbia, you need a car. Hence the growth of out-of-town shopping. That would not be such a pressing issue had we still been able to go from Welwyn to Dunstable by train.

I don't really believe that last paragraph, but it's plausible.

Yes, that's probably going a bit far. The deterioration of our town centres is due to several factors, particularly developments in retail business and the growth of car ownership. Admittedly, the loss of rail services may have influenced the latter, but it's a bit of a long shot. Nice try, though.

 

[AlexS]

Not to mention the oft forgotten point that had these lines not closed, what were not particularly fantastic public transport concerns would not have been available to be perfectly adequate preserved railways (for example the Severn Valley). Therefore much of the railway's heritage in terms of fixture/fittings/traction/equipment would have been lost, more so than as a result of the line closures I feel.

 

[yorksrob]

Not to mention the oft forgotten point that had these lines not closed, what were not particularly fantastic public transport concerns would not have been available to be perfectly adequate preserved railways (for example the Severn Valley). Therefore much of the railway's heritage in terms of fixture/fittings/traction/equipment would have been lost, more so than as a result of the line closures I feel.

I don't really agree with that point, mainly because even if none of the Beeching Cuts had taken place, there were still plenty of lines which had closed previously. That said, I don't think anyone's suggesting that none of the routes on Beechings list should have closed, leaving plenty for preservationists.

The Bluebell line (which was preserved) and the Meon Valley (which wasn't) spring to mind.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Beeching and the attitude he engendered in British Rail did nothing for preserved railways. Groups attempting to buy or lease lines were treated with contempt, wholesale demolition occurred whilst enthusiasts were still trying to negotiate a deal. The prices demanded by BR for what were, by their own definition, worthless railways, was unrealistic, and could be arbitrarily increased.

In my opinion, two major factors allowed heritage railways a limited opportunity to succeed:

1. The availability of Light Railway Orders.
2. Woodham's scrapyard.

Without these we would have almost no heritage railways, or steam locos to run on them.

 

[yorksrob]

Beeching and the attitude he engendered in British Rail did nothing for preserved railways. Groups attempting to buy or lease lines were treated with contempt, wholesale demolition occurred whilst enthusiasts were still trying to negotiate a deal. The prices demanded by BR for what were, by their own definition, worthless railways, was unrealistic, and could be arbitrarily increased.

In my opinion, two major factors allowed heritage railways a limited opportunity to succeed:

1. The availability of Light Railway Orders.
2. Woodham's scrapyard.

Without these we would have almost no heritage railways, or steam locos to run on them.

Which is one of the reasons why the trackbeds of many pre-Beeching closures are often more intact than the post Beeching closures.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There was also government pressure to get the plan through and see its first benefits before the next election (sound familiar? :roll: ). Planning wasn't exactly good either, waiting for the Pilot Scheme to report properly would have made more sense rather than rushing the order to the extent that they did. Really, we needed the National Traction Plan before the Modernisation Plan rather than after.

As for the closures, I can only say it was a failure of surveying and a mistake in not looking at contributory revenue. There was also the attitude to duplicate routes, in which the one 'handed over' generally died or at least got run down. How many major LMS lines closed in the London Midland Region compared with LNER lines for instance? It was also exceptionally London-centric. Hertfordshire turned from a lattice into a series of vertical stripes, making it exceptionally hard to cross the county by rail. Was that responsible for an increase in suburbanisation or a consequence of it?

Wider than that, did Beeching kill our town centres? As a consequence of suburbanisation, to get around suburbia, you need a car. Hence the growth of out-of-town shopping. That would not be such a pressing issue had we still been able to go from Welwyn to Dunstable by train.

I don't really believe that last paragraph, but it's plausible.

As the Big 4 wanted shot of common carrier status 20 years before the modernization plan who was it that decided that diesels trip working to modern marshaling yards would actually be profitable?

Was it BR Managers or was it something Govt (pre 1958) wanted to hear?

 

[John55]

Beeching and the attitude he engendered in British Rail did nothing for preserved railways. Groups attempting to buy or lease lines were treated with contempt, wholesale demolition occurred whilst enthusiasts were still trying to negotiate a deal. The prices demanded by BR for what were, by their own definition, worthless railways, was unrealistic, and could be arbitrarily increased.

In my opinion, two major factors allowed heritage railways a limited opportunity to succeed:

1. The availability of Light Railway Orders.
2. Woodham's scrapyard.

Without these we would have almost no heritage railways, or steam locos to run on them.

The only factor which matters in the creation of heritage railways is that the people who work on them are largely unpaid. Anything else is minor in comparison.

 

[HSTEd]

As the Big 4 wanted shot of common carrier status 20 years before the modernization plan who was it that decided that diesels trip working to modern marshaling yards would actually be profitable?

Was it BR Managers or was it something Govt (pre 1958) wanted to hear?

If you watch that BTC documentary newsreel film from the 50s about the maintenance of a steam engine you see how insanely labour intensive the process was.

It might have been a simplistic analysis that showed that the reduction in traction costs due to dieselisation would erase the losses of the common carrier wagonload market.

This did not bank on increasing road freight transport eroding the market more than had already occurred.

 

[6Gman]

I started - far too dull - and then skimmed.

I'm surprised by that. I find the Report concise and readable.

 

[Tiny Tim]

The only factor which matters in the creation of heritage railways is that the people who work on them are largely unpaid. Anything else is minor in comparison.

That's why I used the word 'allowed'. I certainly don't dismiss the crucial role played by volunteers in actually making it happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you watch that BTC documentary newsreel film from the 50s about the maintenance of a steam engine you see how insanely labour intensive the process was.

I think the film to which you refer is 'Wash and Brush Up' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fWnjd2eftY

British Rail's retention of steam was another factor that exacerbated Beeching's findings. If more diesels, particularly DMUs on branch lines, had been in place by the early 60s more routes would have been viable by Beeching's standards. Conversely, without the steam swansong of the '50s we would have been denied many choice locos to preserve. I'm thinking 9F here.

 

[Pen Mill]

Conversely, without the steam swansong of the '50s we would have been denied many choice locos to preserve. I'm thinking 9F here.

Given the non-stature and non-prominence of preservation in 1960 for example , we'd have lost a whole lot more too.
We lost one of my favourite loco classes , The Patriot , even though a few rebuilt examples were still running in 1965. To think we might have lost the Scots,Jubilees & Duchesses too is unthinkable ! and that's just from my favoured LMR.

 

[Welshman]

In my opinion, two major factors allowed heritage railways a limited opportunity to succeed:

1. The availability of Light Railway Orders.
2. Woodham's scrapyard.

Without these we would have almost no heritage railways, or steam locos to run on them.

I certainly agree with your second point.
Ironically, Dai Woodham, I think, is the only business man I know of who inadvertently made more money by not doing his job than by doing it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

British Rail's retention of steam was another factor that exacerbated Beeching's findings. If more diesels, particularly DMUs on branch lines, had been in place by the early 60s more routes would have been viable by Beeching's standards.

I'm not so sure about this one, though.

The old West Riding of Yorkshire was one of the areas which received early deliveries of 1st gen dmus [the Derby Lightweights and then the Met.Cams], and by 1961, several lines, such as Bradford-Huddersfield and Bradford-Wakefield were dmu-operated. But unfortunately this did not save them from being closed in the Beeching Report.

I think they were uneconomical because the "Pay-Train" concept had not yet been developed. You had modern, appealing trains serving wayside halts with booking-offices still open and all the old infrastructure still in place.

 

[Pen Mill]

The old West Riding of Yorkshire was one of the areas which received early deliveries of 1st gen dmus [the Derby Lightweights and then the Met.Cams], and by 1961, several lines, such as Bradford-Huddersfield and Bradford-Wakefield were dmu-operated. But unfortunately this did not save them from being closed in the Beeching Report.

I think they were uneconomical because the "Pay-Train" concept had not yet been developed. You had modern, appealing trains serving wayside halts with booking-offices still open and all the old infrastructure still in place.

I think economics ceased to play a part in this after the initial "study" flagged up a line as unprofitable. The key "drivers" were hell bent on building roads at the expense of rail and no amount of innovation was going to get in the way.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm not so sure about this one, though.

The old West Riding of Yorkshire was one of the areas which received early deliveries of 1st gen dmus [the Derby Lightweights and then the Met.Cams], and by 1961, several lines, such as Bradford-Huddersfield and Bradford-Wakefield were dmu-operated. But unfortunately this did not save them from being closed in the Beeching Report.

I think they were uneconomical because the "Pay-Train" concept had not yet been developed. You had modern, appealing trains serving wayside halts with booking-offices still open and all the old infrastructure still in place.

I agree with that. It's probably worth saying that the later 'rationalisations' of the '70s and '80s saved a lot of routes that might otherwise have gone the same way. The post-privatisation boom (which would probably have happened anyway if BR had stayed) showed the value of keeping a workable route in that it was possible to increase capacity fairly quickly, although it was a bit expensive. Without this, we might not have Chiltern, any route west of Salisbury, anything at all in Cornwall, the Cotswold Line or many others.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not so sure about this one, though.

The old West Riding of Yorkshire was one of the areas which received early deliveries of 1st gen dmus [the Derby Lightweights and then the Met.Cams], and by 1961, several lines, such as Bradford-Huddersfield and Bradford-Wakefield were dmu-operated. But unfortunately this did not save them from being closed in the Beeching Report.

I think they were uneconomical because the "Pay-Train" concept had not yet been developed. You had modern, appealing trains serving wayside halts with booking-offices still open and all the old infrastructure still in place.

The other factor of course, was that the PTE's hadn't been set up at this time, so it wasn't possible for West Yorkshire to develop these services to its own requirements.

I agree with your point though.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you watch that BTC documentary newsreel film from the 50s about the maintenance of a steam engine you see how insanely labour intensive the process was.

It might have been a simplistic analysis that showed that the reduction in traction costs due to dieselisation would erase the losses of the common carrier wagonload market.

This did not bank on increasing road freight transport eroding the market more than had already occurred.

bear in mind common carrier required extensively manned good depots plus sidings/ passing loops/ signalboxes galore, whilst the diesel would save on operating costs of the train these were but one element of the cost of providing the service. The second man stayed on trip working for shunting duty's.
With a DMU once you got rid of the secondman, made it a paytrain and if the line had no freight or very little left rationalised track/signalling the costs really tumbled.

 

[Waverley125]

post-Beeching hindsight, much of the railway network around Yorkshire would still be in use. A couple of lines I'd expect still to be going:

Bradford-Thornhill Lees via Cleckheaton
Leeds-Mirfield via Heckmondwike (Leeds New Line)
Laisterdyke-Idle
Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury
Keighley-Halifax via Queensbury
Cross Gates-Harrogate via Wetherby
Skipton-Colne
Ilkley-Skipton
Pool in Wharfedale-Ilkley via Otley
Menston-Otley
Wetherby-Church Fenton via Tadcaster
Harrogate-Northallerton via Ripon
Scarborough-Middlesbrough via Whitby West Cliff
York-Hull via Beverley
Selby-Driffield
Garforth-Castleford
Sheffield-Manchester via Woodhead
Normanton-Swinton via Cudworth
Barnsley-Doncaster

 

[Tiny Tim]

Bradford-Thornhill Lees via Cleckheaton
Leeds-Mirfield via Heckmondwike (Leeds New Line)
Laisterdyke-Idle
Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury
Keighley-Halifax via Queensbury
Cross Gates-Harrogate via Wetherby
Skipton-Colne
Ilkley-Skipton
Pool in Wharfedale-Ilkley via Otley
Menston-Otley
Wetherby-Church Fenton via Tadcaster
Harrogate-Northallerton via Ripon
Scarborough-Middlesbrough via Whitby West Cliff
York-Hull via Beverley
Selby-Driffield
Garforth-Castleford
Sheffield-Manchester via Woodhead
Normanton-Swinton via Cudworth
Barnsley-Doncaster

I think I prefer the Flanders & Swann version.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Cambrian Main Line had a mix of semi fast, express and short workings there was only 2 or 3 through trains a day from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth that did all stations - three and three quarter hours!

The intermediate stations between Welshpool and Shrewsbury (5) closed in 1960, Moat Lane Jnc in 1962 and the others (13) in June 1965, DMU's had been introduced in autumn 64 and the schedule came down to two hours 20 minutes.

The "main line" of course went from Whitchurch (connections from Crewe) to Welshpool first, for an even longer list of stops via Oswestry.

I was fascinated to find in a 1958 timetable a regular service from Welshpool to Stafford via Salop and Wellington (legacy of the joint GW-LNW operation).
What a useful route that would be today!

 

[LE Greys]

post-Beeching hindsight, much of the railway network around Yorkshire would still be in use. A couple of lines I'd expect still to be going:

Bradford-Thornhill Lees via Cleckheaton
Leeds-Mirfield via Heckmondwike (Leeds New Line)
Laisterdyke-Idle
Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury
Keighley-Halifax via Queensbury
Cross Gates-Harrogate via Wetherby
Skipton-Colne
Ilkley-Skipton
Pool in Wharfedale-Ilkley via Otley
Menston-Otley
Wetherby-Church Fenton via Tadcaster
Harrogate-Northallerton via Ripon
Scarborough-Middlesbrough via Whitby West Cliff
York-Hull via Beverley
Selby-Driffield
Garforth-Castleford
Sheffield-Manchester via Woodhead
Normanton-Swinton via Cudworth
Barnsley-Doncaster

Afraid I don't know the area well enough, which companies built these routes and which regions did they end up in?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The "main line" of course went from Whitchurch (connections from Crewe) to Welshpool first, for an even longer list of stops via Oswestry.

I was fascinated to find in a 1958 timetable a regular service from Welshpool to Stafford via Salop and Wellington (legacy of the joint GW-LNW operation).
What a useful route that would be today!

Trains often split/joined at Welshpool from about then more trans ran through to Shrewsbury from Aberystwyth and Welshpool-Oswestry-Whitchurch became more of a self contained run. From 63 until closure in 65 the tt was deliberately made not to connect at either end!

 

[steamybrian]

I have read a number of the comments but I travelled over some of the lines in the 1960s just before Beeching closed them.
Firstly some of the stations he closed WERE heavy loss makers with only a few passengers using them and lines such as Halwill- Torrington carried very,very few passengers. Many had gas or oil lighting and were ideally to become heritage railways. In 1966 we still had pregrouping LBSCR carriages running on the Isle of Wight hauled by ancient 02 class locos dating from the 1890s. Yes I know the 1938 stock running the service today is also over 70 years old.
Secondly many of the stations he closed were mistakes and can easily be proved by the many stations that have since re-opened. There are many more still on the drawing board waiting to be reopened (Bicester- Bletchley, Kenilworth, etc)
I have a personal favourite of mistakes he made in closures as Uckfield-Lewes which was primarly closed for a road to be built. Talking of roads the Transport Minister at the time was Ernest Marples chairman of Marples/Ridgway road construction contractors.
Remember there were many lines listed in the Beeching report for closure which would shock readers but at the time a campaign was on to save Exmouth- Exeter ,Liverpool-Southport, Ryde-Shanklin , Hastings- Ashford and not forgetting the Far North lines north of Inverness.

 

[Johnuk123]

I think I prefer the Flanders & Swann version.

I think that observation may have been somewhat lost.

 

[LE Greys]

I think I prefer the Flanders & Swann version.

I think that observation may have been somewhat lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6OHD2uCpfU

Spot the stations still open!

 

[Tiny Tim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6OHD2uCpfU

Spot the stations still open!

I've played this game before; It seems that Messrs Flanders & Swann jumped the gun a bit with the lyrics of 'Slow Train'. Presumably they took the station names from the original report rather than actual closures. Still a beautifully evocative song, though.

 

[Welshman]

post-Beeching hindsight, much of the railway network around Yorkshire would still be in use. A couple of lines I'd expect still to be going:

Bradford-Thornhill Lees via Cleckheaton
Leeds-Mirfield via Heckmondwike (Leeds New Line)
Laisterdyke-Idle
Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury
Keighley-Halifax via Queensbury
Cross Gates-Harrogate via Wetherby
Skipton-Colne
Ilkley-Skipton
Pool in Wharfedale-Ilkley via Otley
Menston-Otley
Wetherby-Church Fenton via Tadcaster
Harrogate-Northallerton via Ripon
Scarborough-Middlesbrough via Whitby West Cliff
York-Hull via Beverley
Selby-Driffield
Garforth-Castleford
Sheffield-Manchester via Woodhead
Normanton-Swinton via Cudworth
Barnsley-Doncaster

You mention "a couple of lines" and then quote 19!!!

Just for the record, if I remember correctly, the stations on the Leeds New Line; and on the former GN lines between Halifax-Queensbury/Keighley/Bradford and Idle-Laisterdyke were closed before Beeching.

However, I certainly agree with your point, that had these lines survived to today, they would indeed be flourishing, and some of those closures are particularly regretted today, eg. Colne-Skipton and Hull-York via Driffield.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that observation may have been somewhat lost.

Certainly not on me!

I love that song- especially "the cat on the seat at Chorlton-cum-Hardy and Chester-le-Street"

[interestingly a couple of places where Flanders and Swann read the Report, but could not have predicted the outcome today!]

 

[yorksrob]

post-Beeching hindsight, much of the railway network around Yorkshire would still be in use. A couple of lines I'd expect still to be going:

Bradford-Thornhill Lees via Cleckheaton
Leeds-Mirfield via Heckmondwike (Leeds New Line)
Laisterdyke-Idle
Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury
Keighley-Halifax via Queensbury
Cross Gates-Harrogate via Wetherby
Skipton-Colne
Ilkley-Skipton
Pool in Wharfedale-Ilkley via Otley
Menston-Otley
Wetherby-Church Fenton via Tadcaster
Harrogate-Northallerton via Ripon
Scarborough-Middlesbrough via Whitby West Cliff
York-Hull via Beverley
Selby-Driffield
Garforth-Castleford
Sheffield-Manchester via Woodhead
Normanton-Swinton via Cudworth
Barnsley-Doncaster

The PTE's were a nudge in the right direction so they may have saved a few of those such as Poole (IW) to Ilkley and Barnsley - Doncaster. Perhaps also Skipton - Colne, York - Hull via Beverley had they introduced them to areas outside of the Cities.

Unfortunately they didn't stop the madness entirely - Greater Manchester PTE (or whatever it was called at the time) still managed to let slip the Leigh loop to their eternal shame.