Being accused by Avanti of delay repay fraud

[Cheatcode]

Hi there,
On the 27th of June i traveled from Southampton Central to Blackpool North. I traveled from Southampton to Birmingham international with cross country, Avanti from Birmingham international to Preston, and i was supposed to travel from Preston to Blackpool north with northern. The Avanti train was delayed, meaning that i missed the connection at preston. The next 2 northern trains to Blackpool had been canceled, so i was advised by station staff that i could get on the train to Blackpool south, and make my way to Blackpool north from there. I submitted a delay repay calim with AWC, and they said that the delay was between 30 and 59 mins. I appealed this, as i arrived at Blackpool south roughly 50 mins after i was meant to be at Blackpool north, and i then had to walk to BPN to be picked up.

I paid £71.65 for my ticket, and i received a payment of £17.92 on Friday. I can see on my banking app that a second payment of £17.92 is coiming into my bank through BACS, from the same people that sent the original £17.92. I have not received anything from Avanti saying that the appeal had been accepted. I contacted Avanti on Twitter, and they asked to confirm the details of the claim, just to make sure they hadn't accidentally doubled paid me. I then received this response:


This confused me, as i dont rember making a claim within the last few months. i checked both of my delay repay accounts with swr and GWR, and as i though, i havent (as shown below):



Im not really sure whats going on to be honest. Should this be something i need to worruy about. I have anxiety and panic disorder, so little things can set me off. If this is anything to be concerned about, is there anything i need to .
Ive also attatched the delay repay claim through avaiti below if thats any help. Thank you



Correction, I traveled on the 27th of JUNE, rather than the 27th of august, apologies.

 

[fandroid]

Your previous claims in 2023 were in January, so it's a bit of a stretch to connect those with the June claims.

Does he not appreciate that you almost certainly live in SWR territory and that would explain the bulk of your claims?

 

[Cheatcode]

Your previous claims in 2023 were in January, so it's a bit of a stretch to connect those with the June claims.

Does he not appreciate that you almost certainly live in SWR territory and that would explain the bulk of your claims?

He said that a claim was made on the 4th, which as you can see clearly isn't the case. I haven't heard about him having a reputation though.


(This was in response to me saying i dont think i have made one in months, before showing the screenshots attatched in the first message)

 

[Haywain]

He said that a claim was made on the 4th, which as you can see clearly isn't the case.

You've attached a screenshot of your Avanti account which shows a claim being received by them on July 4th.

 

[Cheatcode]

You've attached a screenshot of your Avanti account which shows a claim being received by them on July 4th.

That’s the one I made through avanti. Miles is claiming that I also made one through SWR and GWR on the same date.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Have you consented to share your detials between other First Group TOCs?

 

[Cheatcode]

Have you consented to share your detials between other First Group TOCs?

I have not no. I just gave my email address so they could look up my claim, and then they replied saying that i made a claim through GWR and SWR.

 

[AlterEgo]

The member of staff shouldn’t have used the F-word*, there’s no need for that. Plus, they’ve seen fit to offer words of guidance, so they can’t really be satisfied of dishonest intent. Even if they thought multiple claims had been made they should have gently said “this isn’t how it works”.

*fraud!

 

[island]

I think the staff member has over-egged it slightly.

 

[fandroid]

What is the correct Delay Repay procedure in circumstances like this one where an Avanti delay was aggravated by cancellation of the connections on Northern?

 

[jfollows]

What is the correct Delay Repay procedure in circumstances like this one where an Avanti delay was aggravated by cancellation of the connections on Northern?

Avanti's delay caused the connection to be missed, so they're on the hook for Delay Repay based on the final delay amount arriving at the destination, even if it's later than it might have been because of further Northern cancellations.

 

[Wolfie]

Data sharing for legitimate criminal investigation is one thing. Some random Avanti employee with a bee in his bonnet taking it upon himself to almost certainly break GDPR without any solid reason or legitimate evidence is something else entirely.

I would be writing to Avanti's data protection officer, copied to those in GWR and SWR, asking them to explain exactly how and why this has happened and to set out why l shouldn't refer the whole thing to the ICC. Oh, and submit a SAR to all three too.

At the very least an apology is merited.

 

[Titfield]

I have read the message sent on Twitter by Avanti and IMHO it can be read differently. "Ill let the delay repay team know as this could be seen as fraudulent". Miles previously refers to "confusion" and further says that "you are only required to claim with the train operating company that causes the delay".

It could be interpreted that Miles thinks that the Delay Repay Team could see multiple claims as being fraudulent but Miles is going to let them know that the claimant may not have understood the rules correctly (the reference to confusion and thus there was no wrong intent with multiple claims) and that furthermore he tells the claimant that they only need to claim (once) ((my word)) with the TOC that causes the delay. That would (a) mean that the claimant had been informed of the correct approach and (b) possibly he was going to also tell the DRT that the claimant had been informed of the correct approach thus reinforcing the impression that Miles belief was that it was an innocent mistake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have read the message sent on Twitter by Avanti and IMHO it can be read differently. "Ill let the delay repay team know as this could be seen as fraudulent". Miles previously refers to "confusion" and further says that "you are only required to claim with the train operating company that causes the delay".

It could be interpreted that Miles thinks that the Delay Repay Team could see multiple claims as being fraudulent but Miles is going to let them know that the claimant may not have understood the rules correctly (the reference to confusion and thus there was no wrong intent with multiple claims) and that furthermore he tells the claimant that they only need to claim (once) ((my word)) with the TOC that causes the delay. That would (a) mean that the claimant had been informed of the correct approach and (b) possibly he was going to also tell the DRT that the claimant had been informed of the correct approach thus reinforcing the impression that Miles belief was that it was an innocent mistake.

Yes, I read it this way too - i.e. "I'll tell them what happened so they don't think it's fraudulent, as they might otherwise do" rather than "I think it's fraudulent so I'm going to report you".

 

[Bluejays]

I have read the message sent on Twitter by Avanti and IMHO it can be read differently. "Ill let the delay repay team know as this could be seen as fraudulent". Miles previously refers to "confusion" and further says that "you are only required to claim with the train operating company that causes the delay".

It could be interpreted that Miles thinks that the Delay Repay Team could see multiple claims as being fraudulent but Miles is going to let them know that the claimant may not have understood the rules correctly (the reference to confusion and thus there was no wrong intent with multiple claims) and that furthermore he tells the claimant that they only need to claim (once) ((my word)) with the TOC that causes the delay. That would (a) mean that the claimant had been informed of the correct approach and (b) possibly he was going to also tell the DRT that the claimant had been informed of the correct approach thus reinforcing the impression that Miles belief was that it was an innocent mistake.

That's what I took it to be aswell.

Also, was your ticket a return? If the return was 71.65, then them sending another 17.92 to add to the original 17.92 would suggest that they have accepted your appeal and given you a correct amount for 59+ delay to outgoing journey.

 

[Cheatcode]

That's what I took it to be aswell.

Also, was your ticket a return? If the return was 71.65, then them sending another 17.92 to add to the original 17.92 would suggest that they have accepted your appeal and given you a correct amount for 59+ delay to outgoing journey.

Yeah, I had a look into it and I think that explains the second payment. The only think that concerned me is the mention of multiple claims being made, and then possibly being fraudulent.

 

[Bluejays]

Yeah, I had a look into it and I think that explains the second payment. The only think that concerned me is the mention of multiple claims being made, and then possibly being fraudulent.

I really do think that message was meant as 'not sure why you claimed like this, so I'll clear it up with delays team as it could be perceived as fraudulent if they don't know the full story'.

Certainly doesn't read to me as threat or an accusation. I don't think you've got anything to worry about whatsoever.

 

[sheff1]

I really do think that message was meant as 'not sure why you claimed like this, so I'll clear it up with delays team as it could be perceived as fraudulent if they don't know the full story'.

Certainly doesn't read to me as threat or an accusation. I don't think you've got anything to worry about whatsoever.

The OP says they only made one Delay Repay for this journey. That claim was correctly sent to to Avanti.

Yet Miles says "from what I can see you have a made a claim with Avanti, GWR & SWR" . Where has he 'seen' the non existent DR claims for the same journey with GWR or SWR ?

If, as you suggest, Miles is saying 'not sure why you claimed like this' then it appears he does not understand that the claim was correctly made to the appropriate TOC and that TOC only.

 

[Cheatcode]

The OP says they only made one Delay Repay for this journey. That claim was correctly sent to to Avanti.

Yet Miles says "from what I can see you have a made a claim with Avanti, GWR & SWR" . Where has he 'seen' the non existent DR claims for the same journey with GWR or SWR ?

If, as you suggest, Miles is saying 'not sure why you claimed like this' then it appears he does not understand that the claim was correctly made to the appropriate TOC and that TOC only.

I'm really unsure why he thinks I have made claims through other TOCs. As you can see in the screenshots, i haven't claimed through SWR in nearly 6 months, and I've never claimed through GWR. That's the part that is worrying me

 

[ModernRailways]

Have you consented to share your detials between other First Group TOCs?

When an ‘agent’ searches for delay repay all the First group TOCs will show as it’s all done on the same software. If you visit any of their delay repay websites you will notice the same formatting, they use smartRepay by iBlocks. If you have an account with the TOCs using the same details then the delay repay claim will show under the email regardless of which TOC is selected as the records all link, I presume this is fraud prevention as it will help them link potential claims across there TOCs but can easily cause situations like OPs.

Since all the First TOCs come under the same contact centre (First Customer Contact) you can see where that’s heading (I believe SWR is in house for actual customer service etc but delay repay is outsourced to the First Customer Contact). The fraud/revenue is also transitioning to them, although for how much longer is another question.

I’ve had multiple emails to TransPennine where the person has signed off the email as working for GWR, Avanti or Hull Trains, with one signing off as a First Customer Contact agent.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm really unsure why he thinks I have made claims through other TOCs. As you can see in the screenshots, i haven't claimed through SWR in nearly 6 months, and I've never claimed through GWR. That's the part that is worrying me

Not saying this is what's happened here, but not be the first time that a TOC has attempted to swat away a valid 'Delay Repay' claim, by on-forwarding it to another (not primarily at fault) TOC.

Having said that, @ModernRailways' explanation (above) seems more plausible.

 

[sheff1]

I'm really unsure why he thinks I have made claims through other TOCs. As you can see in the screenshots, i haven't claimed through SWR in nearly 6 months, and I've never claimed through GWR. That's the part that is worrying me

If you have not made claims for the same journey with anyone other than Avanti there is nothing to worry about.

The real worrying thing is that an official Avanti Twitter person is causing unnecessary worry to someone who has done absolutely nothing wrong.

 

[Cheatcode]

If you have not made claims for the same journey with anyone other than Avanti there is nothing to worry about.

The real worrying thing is that an official Avanti Twitter person is causing unnecessary worry to someone who has done absolutely nothing wrong.The

The part that's annoying me is that they're going to want me to prove myself innocent, even though I haven't done anything wrong. It's just unneeded stress for me that I'd rather not be dealing with. They seem to be going with a "Guilty until proven innocent approach"

 

[DailyCommuter]

I've recently had several GWR delay repay appear as payments from SWR on my bank statements, so seems First are mixing up between their brands on whatever shared system they are using.