Being allowed to accept more than one route.

[Cricketer8for9]

A thread in the History and Nostalgia section mentioned drivers being told to accept via Herne Hill or via Catford routes at Shortlands Junction so long as their train was not scheduled to stop at any intermediate stations before London Victoria. Are there any other locations where drivers are allowed to accept multiple routes without question? One assumes Brixton on the down would apply for trains not stopping before Bromley South.

For clarity I don’t mean accepting fast or slow lines, I mean accepting a completely different formation (eg Westbury loop) which ultimately rejoins the “main” line.

 

[Bald Rick]

A thread in the History and Nostalgia section mentioned drivers being told to accept via Herne Hill or via Catford routes at Shortlands Junction so long as their train was not scheduled to stop at any intermediate stations before London Victoria. Are there any other locations where drivers are allowed to accept multiple routes without question? One assumes Brixton on the down would apply for trains not stopping before Bromley South.

For clarity I don’t mean accepting fast or slow lines, I mean accepting a completely different formation (eg Westbury loop) which ultimately rejoins the “main” line.

Northampton loop springs to mind. I suppose you could argue that is a fast or slow line routing, albeit with a very wide 10 foot.

 

[irish_rail]

Westbury Station or Westbury avoider. Frome Station or Frome avoider. Approach to Reading Station from the south, via the feeder main or the old way.

 

[zwk500]

Quarry lines or Redhill, on the Brighton Line. Also Hixon or Stafford for trains to Manchester booked via Stoke. I'm pretty sure all routes that are permitted to be accepted without question apply in both directions, although there's probably one that doesn't.

 

[172007]

Diesel passenger trains approaching Kings Norton from the west, if they are signaled via the Camp Hill line can take the route without questioning the signaller. Used for diverting around problems between Kingso Norton and New St via Five Way

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/
London North Westwern (south) sectional appendix.

MD306 - BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET TO ASHCHURCH (EXCL.) (VIA DUNHAMPSTEAD) KINGS NORTON To BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET Up direction CrossCountry services booked to run between Kings Norton and Birmingham New Street, either via Selly Oak or via Lifford East Junction and Bordesley Junction, may be diverted accordingly without warning. Drivers so routed need not observe the second sentence of Rule Book, Module S7, Section 1.2

 

[class 9]

On the Derby to Birmingham route, you can take the 'slow lines' at Kingsbury Jct via Whitacre Jct and rejoin the mainline at Water Orton.

 

[_toommm_]

Would the route via Barrow Hill be accepted at Chesterfield without question presumably, as long as it’s not a Northern service booked to stop at Dronfield?

 

[class 9]

No

 

[O L Leigh]

Diesel passenger trains approaching Kings Norton from the west, if they are signaled via the Camp Hill line can take the route without questioning the signaller. Used for diverting around problems between Kingso Norton and New St via Five Way

Only if you're not booked to stop at/been given a "not to stop order" for University. Otherwise you stop and challenge.

 

[hexagon789]

A thread in the History and Nostalgia section mentioned drivers being told to accept via Herne Hill or via Catford routes at Shortlands Junction so long as their train was not scheduled to stop at any intermediate stations before London Victoria. Are there any other locations where drivers are allowed to accept multiple routes without question? One assumes Brixton on the down would apply for trains not stopping before Bromley South.

For clarity I don’t mean accepting fast or slow lines, I mean accepting a completely different formation (eg Westbury loop) which ultimately rejoins the “main” line.

At Greenhill Upper or Polmont Jcn being routed via Grahamston instead of High and thus calling at Falkirk Grahamston instead of Falkirk High is one. ISTR the instruction could be found in the Sectional Appendix.

 

[LowLevel]

Would the route via Barrow Hill be accepted at Chesterfield without question presumably, as long as it’s not a Northern service booked to stop at Dronfield?

No.

That one has to be authorised as it can really mess up station working at Sheffield as well as causing delay.

 

[Mag_seven]

(Avanti / XC) Uddingston Jn - Law Jn via Bellshill / Holytown / Wishaw if not calling at Motherwell.

 

[class ep-09]

Didcot and Didcot Avoiding Lines to / from Oxford

 

[DPQ]

Quarry lines or Redhill, on the Brighton Line.

For non-stop services yes, however there have been occasions when drivers of non stop services have stopped and questioned the signaller here.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Thanks all. To be clear I’m interested in situations where accepting either route is acceptable rather than one where it is possible. Clearly only applies for train not booked to call at any stations on the route being avoided. Birmingham example seems good - clearly a train booked to call at University cannot accept Camp Hill.

 

[Bigman]

How about Aldwarke Jcn to Conisborough which can go via Swinton or avoid it?

 

[Gloster]

In the days when there were trains non-stop from Guildford to Waterloo, I think they were allowed to accept the New Line at Guildford; I am not sure if this included via Epsom or whether it was allowed southbound. What about Woking-Waterloos going via Addlestone?

 

[DanNCL]

A historic example would be for freight at Carlisle, if not booked to stop in the station freight was permitted to accept both the route through the station and the route via the station avoiding lines.

As for modern examples, would I be right in thinking that non-stop services between Stevenage and Finsbury Park/Kings Cross are permitted to accept both the route via Welwyn and the route via Hertford?

 

[dan4291]

Lumo can accept routes through York station and the York Avoiding lines as the drivers sign both. Also at York, at the north end of platform 5 (maybe 9, 10 and 11 too, not sure) trains can take routes for either the Down or Up line as they are bi-directional as far as Skelton junction.

Another one I can think of is south of Doncaster heading north where trains can be routed via the main line or via Decoy at Loversall Carr junction.

As for modern examples, would I be right in thinking that non-stop services between Stevenage and Finsbury Park/Kings Cross are permitted to accept both the route via Welwyn and the route via Hertford?

Only if the driver signs the Hertford Loop, which all should do, although if I ever got routed via Hertford without being booked down there I would ring the signaller and question it.

 

[DPQ]

Extract from the Kent/Sussex/Wessex Network Rail Sectional Appendix Kent Sussex Wessex Sectional Appendix December 2021 (windows.net)

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

How would this apply to services over much longer distances - so for instance a Euston-Glasgow fast booked non-stop to Warrington could get variously diverted at Rugby (via New St or Stechford-Aston), Colwich (via Stoke/Alsager), Norton Bridge (ditto) and still be able to regain booked route at Crewe?

 

[zwk500]

How would this apply to services over much longer distances - so for instance a Euston-Glasgow fast booked non-stop to Warrington could get variously diverted at Rugby (via New St or Stechford-Aston), Colwich (via Stoke/Alsager), Norton Bridge (ditto) and still be able to regain booked route at Crewe?

Only certain routes have a published instruction not to challenge the route, and they can apply only to certain trains. Where there is no instruction the driver needs to be informed in advance, or when they see the signal set for the different route they need to stop and challenge the route.

For Euston-Glasgow trains they would need to stop and challenge the route at the 3 places you've mentioned unless informed in advance that they're being diverted. A Euston-Glasgow could be diverted via Northampton without prior warning though.

 

[The North Briton]

Could trains not booked to call at Darlington still be routed through platforms 1 or 4 if required?

 

[47827]

Used to be extremely common for diverted and diesel drags around the North West (running between Crewe to Preston or Liverpool) in later years to take all manner of different routes South of Manchester (plus sometimes vary between Piccadilly/Victoria) regardless of what way a service was booked so long as the crews signed it (e.g Styal or Stockport then Piccadilly versus Denton/Manchester Victoria). Not unkown to the North or West of Manchester either to see variation where no stops were booked (Chat Moss or Warrington Central into Liverpool for example). Paths and whether the trains could be squeezed through and were running on schedule or late could dictate things too as well as route issues. Sometimes drags would also divert via entirely different routes to those booked as well (e.g a WCML routed one via Manchester or a Manchester one via other routes) to do with delays, overrun in route works etc. Have seen drivers pull up at a signal to challenge a route on those then have it changed or left alone depending on the outcome of the chat.

Around the West Midlands routes between Wolverhampton and New St and indeed whether via Camp Hill or not on XC trains were often ones unchallenged and simply taken by the driver.

Plenty of others past and present too.

 

[dan4291]

Could trains not booked to call at Darlington still be routed through platforms 1 or 4 if required?

Yes, happens to Lumo quite a lot, especially going north through platform 4 as it keeps the north end of the station free for any southbound trains to go into platform 1.

 

[py_megapixel]

Can trains not stopping between Bristol and Taunton accept the Weston loop?

 

[Mintona]

Yes, any trains booked via the Weston avoiders can be signalled through Weston Super Mare without a requirement to challenge the route.

 

[Route115?]

Presumably a driver can take any route that that (s)he has knowledge for and there are no restrictions for the stock that converges with the booked route before the next stop, or are there other factors to be considered.

When I was at Canterbury in the late 70s / early 80s and the Chatham line was the main route to London we were diverted via the Catford Loop on a number of occasions if late running meant that we missed our path via Herne Hill.

 

[30907]

Presumably a driver can take any route that that (s)he has knowledge for and there are no restrictions for the stock that converges with the booked route before the next stop, or are there other factors to be considered.

Yes they can, but in most cases (see post #22) they would need to be informed in advance or challenge it.

When I was at Canterbury in the late 70s / early 80s and the Chatham line was the main route to London we were diverted via the Catford Loop on a number of occasions if late running meant that we missed our path via Herne Hill.

This is one of the cases (in fact the starting point of the thread) where no challenge is needed.

Incidentally, is via Lewisham instead of (the main line) via Parks Bridge Jn allowed without challenge? And what about routes to Dartford, for a non-stop should one exist?

 

[zwk500]

Incidentally, is via Lewisham instead of (the main line) via Parks Bridge Jn allowed without challenge? And what about routes to Dartford, for a non-stop should one exist?

Via Lewisham is, for Down trains.

SO130 - CHARING CROSS / CANNON STREET TO DOVER PRIORY / EUROTUNNEL INTERFACE (VIA TONBRIDGE)
ST. JOHNS
Drivers of down trains via Hither Green may accept a signal cleared for an alternative route without stopping to ascertain the reason provided the train is not booked to call at Lewisham. Dated: 02/12/06

Dartford isn't mentioned in the Sectional Appendix