'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[Geezertronic]

I am not advocating fare dodging but I am - and others on this thread - unhappy with the way he was manhandled.

But for his actions, he wouldn't have put himself in that situation in the first place. Every action as a reaction whether that be a positive or negative reaction. What did he expect to achieve by swearing and acting like an idiot? He got what he deserved and was lucky that it wasn't worse to be honest...

 

[Greenback]

Ultimately, if he had not beene ncouraged to leave the train what would have been the result? Probably, either he would have delayed the entire train while waiting for the police to arrive, or, more likely, he would have been allowed to travel to wherever he was going to avoid the delay.

In the former, a lot of people would have been very inconvenienced. In the latter, it would have simply encouraged others to do the same, with the resulting continuing decline in attitudes within society. Aftert all, why behave reasonably and treat others with respect if shouting and swearing ends up getting you exactly what you want?

 

[Ferret]

First I am not a troll just someone with a difference of opinion to you. In the fifty years of travelling on Strathclyde north I have never once went looking for a ticket person. They come looking for you. I have never witnessed any person who has went looking for the ticket person. A lot of trains are six carriages without a connecting door between the two sets of three. I am not advocating fare dodging but I am - and others on this thread - unhappy with the way he was manhandled.

Because presumably you support the alternative, which was for everyone to sit at the station forever and a day before BTP maybe attended (but most probably would not).

So, is it reasonable then for one foul mouthed individual with no valid ticket to start shouting the odds, breach at least two byelaws, and in doing so inconvenience all other law-abiding passengers on the train who just want to go home quietly?

 

[yorkie]

There's no ticket office at Edinburgh Park, so I'm not sure when he would have been able to explain things before boarding the train.

OK, fair point, but then why did he not have a reasonable conversation with the guard? Unfortunately though if the guard won't accept his explanation then he will have to purchase a new single ticket for the correct direction and then apply for a refund.

In my experience if you have a ticket that is invalid and you require goodwill and approach the guard and explain the circumstances and ask nicely, then depending on what those circumstances are and how reasonable the request is, then the chances are most guards will be reasonable back. The answer may not be what you want to hear every time and you may have to pay again. I do not think that Sam Main knows how to be 'reasonable' or to ask nicely.

If he knew he was in the wrong why did he not politely explain this to the guard? If the guard still insisted that he had to pay again and apply for a refund then why did he not do that? The guard would have given him the opportunity to pay for the journey. Sam Main chose not to take it and was abusive.

Once again, people are making this into a black and white case of fare evasion. It's not as simple as that.

Indeed, but what people can clearly see is someone who is swearing at a guard and refusing to co-operate who is not in the right.

If you think your ticket is valid and the guard disagrees then there are ways to have that discussion. Swearing and being abusive and aggressive is not acceptable. But when you know your ticket isn't valid, as Sam Main apparently did, then you are relying on goodwill from the guard. The only way to get that is to be polite. Swearing at the guard going to get you nowhere and is an offence.
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First I am not a troll just someone with a difference of opinion to you. In the fifty years of travelling on Strathclyde north I have never once went looking for a ticket person. They come looking for you. I have never witnessed any person who has went looking for the ticket person. A lot of trains are six carriages without a connecting door between the two sets of three. I am not advocating fare dodging but I am - and others on this thread - unhappy with the way he was manhandled.

There is no need to go looking for a guard normally. But if you know your ticket is for the wrong direction then if you do not go looking for the guard you can expect to be sold a new ticket, which you cannot refuse! If you want goodwill from the guard because your ticket is invalid eg due to being for the opposite direction then it is a good idea to seek the guard (or revenue inspector in the case of electric services in the Strathclyde area).

Unless you have had a ticket for the opposite direction to the one you are making then I do not see how you an equate Sam Main's situation to your own.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Exactly Ferret & Yorkie. I find it appaling that people seem to think its perfectly ok to swear, be abusive and treat railway staff as if they were a peice of dog dirt on their shoe. Sadly when somebody tries to help by removing an abusive, obnoxious exuce for a human being off the train it is the one who decides he can't just sit, watch and turn the other cheek and he is the one condemned. I hope this Sam Main also get done for verbal assault as well as the fare evasion, but in todays society I'm not convinced

 

[Greenback]

Exactly Ferret & Yorkie. I find it appaling that people seem to think its perfectly ok to swear, be abusive and treat railway staff as if they were a peice of dog dirt on their shoe. Sadly when somebody tries to help by removing an abusive, obnoxious exuce for a human being off the train it is the one who decides he can't just sit, watch and turn the other cheek and he is the one condemned. I hope this Sam Main also get done for verbal assault as well as the fare evasion, but in todays society I'm not convinced

I agree 100%. It is no wonder that there is such a lack of respect (depsite it being the favourite word of so many people exhibiting appalling behviour themselves) for others when so many of the messages sent out by the legal system serve only to encourage abuse, and discourage tackling it, in the first place.

 

[Anon Mouse]

On that note I'm off to work. Hopefully I wont have too many problems with the Sam Main's of our world. Better blow the dust of my UFN book!

 

[Ferret]

Just to recap, do we know if Sam Main has been charged with any offence as yet, be it byelaws or Public Order? At stake is the reputation of the Police, because regardless of what happens to 'Big Man', there is clear evidence of byelaw offences at the very least, and as a law-abiding taxpayer, I think it's reasonable to expect Sam Main to be prosecuted.

 

[Greeny]

I would hope that the fare evader is charged with at least a breach of bylaws. But I still say that if that 'good guy', or whatever you want to call him had grabbed me like he grabbed Main, he'd have lost his teeth.

G.

 

[Ferret]

I would hope that the fare evader is charged with at least a breach of bylaws. But I still say that if that 'good guy', or whatever you want to call him had grabbed me like he grabbed Main, he'd have lost his teeth.

G.

That would probably have landed you right in it, with all due respect!

 

[marks87]

OK, fair point, but then why did he not have a reasonable conversation with the guard? Unfortunately though if the guard won't accept his explanation then he will have to purchase a new single ticket for the correct direction and then apply for a refund.

In my experience if you have a ticket that is invalid and you require goodwill and approach the guard and explain the circumstances and ask nicely, then depending on what those circumstances are and how reasonable the request is, then the chances are most guards will be reasonable back. The answer may not be what you want to hear every time and you may have to pay again. I do not think that Sam Main knows how to be 'reasonable' or to ask nicely.

If he knew he was in the wrong why did he not politely explain this to the guard? If the guard still insisted that he had to pay again and apply for a refund then why did he not do that? The guard would have given him the opportunity to pay for the journey. Sam Main chose not to take it and was abusive.


Indeed, but what people can clearly see is someone who is swearing at a guard and refusing to co-operate who is not in the right.

If you think your ticket is valid and the guard disagrees then there are ways to have that discussion. Swearing and being abusive and aggressive is not acceptable. But when you know your ticket isn't valid, as Sam Main apparently did, then you are relying on goodwill from the guard. The only way to get that is to be polite. Swearing at the guard going to get you nowhere and is an offence.

The thing is, everyone is basing their opinion on video footage that starts once the incident is well under way. How do we know he didn't start off trying to explain the situation and the guard refused to listen?

 

[Greeny]

The video I saw would be called an assaulult on Mr Main. I doubt there would be a Court anywhere that would deny anybody the right to defend themselves against such an assault. Had Main smacked somebody first that would be a different matter. As it was he was physically attacked first and the prosecuting authorities cannot ignore that. Don't get me wrong - I am not defending Main's actions, he was an obnoxious, mouthy little sod who deserved to be prosecuted. But being mouthy does not warrant an assault.

G

 

[scotsman]

They have RPIs though, I have never been on a journey in Stratchclyde without seeing one!

For the record, ScotRail are fined by Transport Scotland for each occurrence of a DOO train departing without a Ticket Examiner onboard

 

[Greeny]

You and I must be watching a completely different video. There was no attack, there was no assault. Being all emotive doesn't change the facts that the video doesn't lie. The Big Man manhandled the gobby chav off the train - no attack or assault took place. There is a gulf of difference between being attacked or assaulted, and being manhandled.

You are correct - the video doesn't lie. No there is no gulf of differenced in this case. what I saw was big man grab Main, pull him from his seat (Main seemed to land on the floor) and drag him from the coach. Like it or not, that is an assault and English and Scottish law says so and it also says that Main was entitled not to be assaulted. He was being a mouthy little p***k but as yet in this country, that does not justify being 'manhandled' (to use your term) by a stranger.

Where do you draw the line ?. I am still amazed at the number of peopole who claim to be law abiding Citizens who think that it is alright to do that to somebody just for being mouthy. Do you seriously think big man would have tried that with a 6ft 6in skinhead ?.

Moreover, what would you call it if Main had defended himself - an assault on big man ?.

As I said, I'd love him to have tried to do that to me.

As Down South said they were both wrong.

G

 

[curly42]

You and I must be watching a completely different video. There was no attack, there was no assault. Being all emotive doesn't change the facts that the video doesn't lie. The Big Man manhandled the gobby chav off the train - no attack or assault took place. There is a gulf of difference between being attacked or assaulted, and being manhandled.

Well said. The big guy helped out,and I for one,had I been the guard,would have been eternally grateful.
If there's any justice left in this world the big guy will walk away uncharged while the scrote will be prosecuted (although the way justice works,it'll probably be the other way).
Had the same situation myself years ago.Travelling as passenger from Swansea to Cardiff (I was a driver at the time),a youngster boarded the train at Port Talbot.When the (female) conductor came around,he simply said that he was going to Cardiff,had no money and couldn't pay.When she asked him to leave the train at Pyle he erupted with mouthfulls of abusive language.Deciding that actions are louder than words,I grabbed his collar,marched him to the door and threw him onto the platform.As luck would have it,it was pouring down with rain.

 

[Nonsense]

I agree.

What I find confusing is the number of people on here who think anybody who condemns the big thug for his assault is automatically a supporter of Mr Main.

In my opinion, both are in the wrong, regardless of whatever happened prior to them mouthing off or committing an assault. The big man is clearly up for a criminal charge of assault, and unfortunately for him he needs to have a conviction recorded and a short prison sentence as an example to discourage vigilantism. Mr Main deserves to be tried for some kind of charge of offensive behaviour with a community service sentence if found guilty, and for fare evasion if it can be proven.

I agree with this. I have seen no defense of Main's actions, his behavior or the act of fare dodging. Only that the intervention by a member of the public in what is effectively a commercial dispute was unwarranted and is a separate crime in itself.

You and I must be watching a completely different video. There was no attack, there was no assault. Being all emotive doesn't change the facts that the video doesn't lie. The Big Man manhandled the gobby chav off the train - no attack or assault took place. There is a gulf of difference between being attacked or assaulted, and being manhandled.

You have a very narrow view of assault. Next time you're sat beside a random woman on the train, brush your hand gently down her thigh and, assuming you survive, see what they charge you with.

 

[Geezertronic]

In that case, I fear for the jobs of nightclub bouncers who find themselves in this situation many times every week. It matters not that Main is a scrawny gobby chav instead of a 6 foot 6" skinhead, the same treatment would have been issued by me in any case. And if he (or you) had retaliated, I would have been the one left standing (having had experience of such an event before although the idiot in question was just over foor I would say)

Don't want to start a verbal war here, but the actions of a single individual should not affect the majority. He got what he deserved, it was not assault or an attack. People with common sense can see that...

 

[Greeny]

In that case, I fear for the jobs of nightclub bouncers who find themselves in this situation many times every week. It matters not that Main is a scrawny gobby chav instead of a 6 foot 6" skinhead, the same treatment would have been issued by me in any case. And if he (or you) had retaliated, I would have been the one left standing (having had experience of such an event before although the idiot in question was just over foor I would say)

Don't want to start a verbal war here, but the actions of a single individual should not affect the majority. He got what he deserved, it was not assault or an attack. People with common sense can see that...

you are correct - the actions of a single individual should not affect the majority. Likewise, I do not want to get into a verbal war but I would like to see the Court that would convict me of assault if I had DEFENDED myself (I did NOT say retaliated) against what big man did to Main. I rather think your view of what you call common sense is being something that you personally agree with, and anybody disagreeing is wrong.

G

 

[michael769]

do we know if Sam Main has been charged with any offence as yet, be it byelaws or Public Order? A

He has been reported to the Procurator Fiscal for consideration of prosecution for offences under the Rail Byelaws, a Common Law public order offence and aggravated trespass.

Mr Pollock was charged and reported to the fiscal for consideration of prosecution for a Common Law public order offence and Common Law assault.

It should be noted that Scotland has no formal legal concept of a charge - it is merely issued by the police as a courtesy to inform an accused that they are to be reported.

As yet the Crown Office has been fairly silent about how they intend to dispose of the matter. It would not surprise me if they are hoping that the media will lose interest and they can quietly let the whole thing run out of time.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I will never get over the fact that a minority here (thank god) sees the gobby obnoxious little waste of space as the "victim" . He got what he deserved, he verbally assaulted the guard, he was breaking numerous byelaws and he got ejected from the train, and let's hope for common sense's sake that he is foind not guilty, all the guy did was help out someone who was being verbally abused in by a youth well over half his age, the guy deserves a medal not this garbage that some people here are spouting, - hope that one day when you need help everyone turns a blind eye and does not get involved then maybe only then will you understand why people like myself support the actions of the big man and look on the chav with utter disgust

 

[Geezertronic]

I rather think your view of what you call common sense is being something that you personally agree with, and anybody disagreeing is wrong.

G

Well you would be wrong if that is what you think... saying that, it's a sad state of affairs that we are even discussing an incident like this. There should have been no need for the Big Man to get involved anyway had it not been for the actions of an individual like Main whose intellect is obviously so low that he has to restort to swearing and causing a scene. My experience that this is usually the case when someone cannot resolve things amicably.

 

[jon0844]

There is a gulf of difference between being attacked or assaulted, and being manhandled.

Quite. Otherwise bouncers and cops would be charged with assault every night at chucking out time. So would security guards in shops etc. (Edit: I see someone else mentioned this already!)

Once he was considered a trespasser, Mr Main had no right to get back on the train. If his story was totally true, he'd then have every right to claim for damages (and actual losses, not made up stuff) later on.

Given his story kept changing, I'd not consider him a credible witness anyway.

Do you seriously think big man would have tried that with a 6ft 6in skinhead ?.

Did Big Man know for sure who he was dealing with before he got up? He may well have had a different outcome if Mr Main had been a lot bigger/stronger, but I doubt you could claim he was picking on him when he seemingly got involved without actually knowing what he was about to deal with.

 

[Greeny]

Given his story kept changing, I'd not consider him a credible witness anyway.
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I doubt you could claim he was picking on him when he seemingly got involved without actually knowing what he was about to deal with.

For what it is worth jonmorris, I do not disagree with your points. I no longer have access to the Rule Book, but it used to say that STAFF could use reasonable force to remove trespassers but nothing about M'sOtP. I do not support Mains actions, but nor do I support Pollocks. I do support the rule of law and, as somebody has arleady said, both parties were in the wrong, and (as a personal opinion) both parties want their bloody heads banging together

G.

 

[scotsman]

It is Main that needs the prison sentence as an example to discourage anti social behaviour.

No, he should get a Community Service Order - he thinks the world owes him a living, so he should be put in his place by a bit of hard work instead.

Besides, there's no chance he would ever get 3 month+ prison sentence, which is currently the minimum in Scotland

 

[Ferret]

I'd agree with Community Service actually - but he'll just be fined I imagine.

 

[Nym]

And then daddy will pay for him...

 

[Greenback]

No, he should get a Community Service Order - he thinks the world owes him a living, so he should be put in his place by a bit of hard work instead.

Besides, there's no chance he would ever get 3 month+ prison sentence, which is currently the minimum in Scotland

I disagree. Perhaps some of those rioting and lottoing last summer might not have done so had they realised that they could get a jail sentence and a criminal record rather than a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

Perhaps laws need to be changed so that assisting a member of staff in removing an abusive, ticketless passenger is not seen as an offence, rather as an act of public service.

 

[Geezertronic]

DownSouth - you must have serious issues if you think Mr Pollock is a "random uncontrollable thug". Please provide proof that substantiates this claim and please bear in mond that manhandling a gobby idiot like Main does not count towards your wild accusation.

Emotive language such as yours is ridiculous. You'll be sticking up for the rioters that looted and caused thousands of pounds worth of damage next...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Not just verbally abusive. It has been alleged that on Scotrails CCTV camera he can be seen trying to trip the guard up.

I am amazed that on a forum like this some see it as acceptable to allegedly attempt to assault and verbally abuse a member of train crew - and appropriate that members of the public should be vilified for trying to come to the aid of staff.

Is it open season on train crew?

Only by a very small minority on here (and it is a small minority) the main problem is as a lot of people on here are either not Traincrew or are not in customer facing roles, some people have mentioned "training" which would never work in the real world, some are too young to have the experience of situations like this, and some just stick by what they honestly believe is correct (even if it goes against anything that remotely resembles common sense). This is a forum and everyone's views are valid, do I agree with some of them, not a hope but it isn't open season on Traincrew, the mods put a stop to that a while back.

 

[LondonJohn]

You and I must be watching a completely different video. There was no attack, there was no assault. Being all emotive doesn't change the facts that the video doesn't lie. The Big Man manhandled the gobby chav off the train - no attack or assault took place. There is a gulf of difference between being attacked or assaulted, and being manhandled.

I think you need to check the definition of assault and come back to tell us what it is.

We do not know what happened before the phone footage was captured. The guard clearly was saying that everybody would be waiting there until the matter was sorted. It does not excuse either Sam Main's actions or that of Allan Pollock if the TOC had a better relationship with the BTP a protocol would be in place and there would be a short delay whilst the police attend to deal with the matter... nobody likes that and they all want to get home but sadly we have to wait when someone is taken ill on a train.

Whilst I am sure forum members would not be abusive to a guard I bet they would be up in arms if they were forcibly removed from a train late at night after they beleived they paid the correct fare.... They would be writing to the TOC and Passenger Focus for compensation many times over the value of the fare paid.

Whether we like it or not we have the law of the land to deal with situations like this. Two wrongs never make a right but being a gobby ****e does not warrant an assault.

Where do you draw the line.. he was shouting and swearing so I threw him off the train and broke his leg..... he was being obnoxious so I manhandled him off the train and he fractured his skull as he fell awkwardly.....