Bikes on trains - do I have priority over somebody sat in the bike storage area?

[Krokodil]

The fault lies with whoever decided to put seating in the bike storage area

I'm just glad that they didn't install jump seats in the vestibules like the 175s had. They're designed for people just going one stop (and the ones at the very front were popular for fare evaders doing just that) but often got monopolised by students or Japanese tourists who were on the train for hours on end, blocking the door at every station with bulky luggage.

I genuinely do not understand why bike storage is on a train, or why transport for Wales decided a train with no luggage storage and such a terrible seating layout was such a great idea to have to go all the way to Cardiff through the length of wales.

Trains all over the world have bike storage. I preferred the arrangement on a 153: luggage on top, bikes underneath. You should target your ire at those ridiculous catering cupboards.

 

[yorkie]

To be absolutely clear, no-one should be suggesting or hinting at any wrongdoing on the part of @jednick and if anyone wants to propose changes to provision, these must be posted in the Speculative Discussion section.

@jednick was entitled (and probably even required) to store the bike in the designated area; anyone who chooses to occupy any such area for any other purpose, must be prepared to immediately vacate the area when required.

 

[RPI]

GWR’s refitted Turbos have that. Unfortunately the shelf is a bit too low for many bikes.

Only the two cars though!

 

[Lockwood]

I remember something on TV many many years ago. I think it was a news article about bike storage. Or possibly about people owning two bikes, one to cycle to their home station and one stored at their (usually London) destination.

Some senior rail boss says something like "I don't understand why anyone would want to put one form of transport onto another". So, that's someone who has never used a car ferry then?

 

[jednick]

It happened yet again recently, this problem.

I was travelling from Worcester to Birmingham.

What should have been a 4 car train was reduced to a 2 car train, towards New Street, on a busy Saturday morning. The train was absolutely packed.

When I boarded with my bike, three people were already sat on the fold-down seats in the bike space. I asked them to move. Two of the people got up, and then had to stand, leaving one person still sat there, making it still impossible for me to store my bike. I had to ask him yet again to move, at which point he vacated the seat and then he also had to stand.

It was really embarrassing for me to have to ask. I felt really bad, so I actually got off at Droitwich and waited for a quieter train towards Snow Hill.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't understand why there needs to be bike storage on a train

a woman who'd clearly been riding, drags her bike on

I genuinely do not understand why bike storage is on a train

You have answered your own question; There needs to be bike storage on a train so that people can bring their bike on a train - Or should cyclists simply be banned from trains altogether? In which case also ban large luggage, prams, buggys etc, as these too take up space (and do not pay fares).

It is not the fault of cyclists that short trains with inadequate seating provision are operated, far far too often.

 

[bramling]

Some senior rail boss says something like "I don't understand why anyone would want to put one form of transport onto another".

I’ve heard that one a few times. It’s a very ignorant comment, and railway management should know better.

 

[dk1]

I’ve heard that one a few times. It’s a very ignorant comment, and railway management should know better.

That’s how they got rid of Motorail

 

[LowLevel]

You have answered your own question; There needs to be bike storage on a train so that people can bring their bike on a train - Or should cyclists simply be banned from trains altogether? In which case also ban large luggage, prams, buggys etc, as these too take up space (and do not pay fares).

It is not the fault of cyclists that short trains with inadequate seating provision are operated, far far too often.

There should be reasonable storage provided without tip up seats and a fee charged as per many European railway undertakings.

The current "it can travel for free but we are only going to make half hearted provision and if we don't then tough" works for no one. I'm not throwing people off a full train to make room for a bike, for example. If it is busy but there is room, I will however clear the space.

The train operators don't want to carry them at all and would rather they're locked up at stations. Other passengers resent giving up space to store them.

Thus the solution for me is to charge, and a consequence of the charge is that priority space will be provided.

 

[jednick]

If charges are being proposed here for carrying bicycles on trains, then what about pushchairs and suitcases?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If charges are being proposed here for carrying bicycles on trains, then what about pushchairs and suitcases?

Don't give them ideas.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I remember something on TV many many years ago. I think it was a news article about bike storage. Or possibly about people owning two bikes, one to cycle to their home station and one stored at their (usually London) destination.

Some senior rail boss says something like "I don't understand why anyone would want to put one form of transport onto another". So, that's someone who has never used a car ferry then?

Seems a bit vague. Despite working on the railway for over 40 years I never heard a ‘senior boss’ (or any other member of rail staff) say anything like that.

 

[dk1]

Back in Anglia Railways days cyclists were charged £1 to convey their conveyance. Some guards overlooked it and others would charge up and down the train hunting the owner. I have even known one who when nobody came forward locked it to the frame.

 

[43066]

If charges are being proposed here for carrying bicycles on trains, then what about pushchairs and suitcases?

It seems likely (and sensible) that luggage restrictions/charges will be brought in more widely, as already seen on Lumo. There’s provision for it in the National rail conditions of carriage.

Wheelchairs shouldn’t be charged for, however they are also subject to capacity restrictions, hence it’s a good idea to make reservations. Ultimately capacity is limited and needs to be rationed

There should be reasonable storage provided without tip up seats and a fee charged as per many European railway undertakings.

The current "it can travel for free but we are only going to make half hearted provision and if we don't then tough" works for no one. I'm not throwing people off a full train to make room for a bike, for example. If it is busy but there is room, I will however clear the space.

The train operators don't want to carry them at all and would rather they're locked up at stations. Other passengers resent giving up space to store them.

Thus the solution for me is to charge, and a consequence of the charge is that priority space will be provided.

Agreed. During the summer months cyclists are quite regularly being turned away from Meridian services due to insufficient storage space. This will only get worse as trains get busier.

 

[styles]

It seems likely (and sensible) that luggage restrictions/charges will be brought in more widely, as already seen on Lumo. There’s provision for it in the National rail conditions of carriage.

Wheelchairs shouldn’t be charged for, however they are also subject to capacity restrictions, hence it’s a good idea to make reservations. Ultimately capacity is limited and needs to be rationed

I'm not so sure that enforcing the luggage bylaws, or charging, will become that widespread.

Lumo is a special case in that one of their goals is to encourage people away from air travel and onto trains, by offering cheap fares on a fast service which only calls at stations (relatively) near airports. The main air passengers who benefit from this are those with hold luggage, where the hold luggage fee offsets their budget RyanAir/EasyJet fare. Hence their services are rammed with suitcases. That's not to say I haven't seen people store suitcases in toilet cubicles on GWR or C2C, but overwhelmingly Lumo, who, whether OA is right or wrong, are a victim of their own success.

And after all, charging for it has to ultimately be profitable else they won't do it. If the cost of administering a luggage charging scheme outweighs the revenue it generates, most operators won't bother imo.

Charging for bikes would be easy enough though. Booking engines already have bike reservation functionality - it just needs a tenner whacking on the booking price.

 

[43066]

Lumo is a special case in that one of their goals is to encourage people away from air travel and onto trains, by offering cheap fares on a fast service which only calls at stations (relatively) near airports. The main air passengers who benefit from this are those with hold luggage, where the hold luggage fee offsets their budget RyanAir/EasyJet fare. Hence their services are rammed with suitcases. That's not to say I haven't seen people store suitcases in toilet cubicles on GWR or C2C, but overwhelmingly Lumo, who, whether OA is right or wrong, are a victim of their own success.

I think the same could be said for most longer distance/intercity operators, whether or not they compete directly with airlines - GWR and EMR don’t, but are still regularly full to bursting with luggage.

And after all, charging for it has to ultimately be profitable else they won't do it. If the cost of administering a luggage charging scheme outweighs the revenue it generates, most operators won't bother imo.

The reason for doing it would be to ration capacity rather than to make a profit, per se.

 

[styles]

I think the same could be said for most longer distance/intercity operators, whether or not they compete directly with airlines - GWR and EMR don’t, but are still regularly full to bursting with luggage.

Full sure, but the proportion of Avanti/LNER/GWR/sleeper journeys I've been on where the luggage situation is as bad as every single Lumo journey I've taken where I've been blocking vestibules or stacked up in toilets or they've allocated seats as luggage space which have then filled is minuscule.

 

[43066]

Full sure, but the proportion of Avanti/LNER/GWR/sleeper journeys I've been on where the luggage situation is as bad as every single Lumo journey I've taken is minuscule.

I think the issue LUMO have is probably down to their five car trains and small fleet that precludes them from running in multiple. Many LNER/GWR trains are longer.

However it’s going to become more of a problem for all long distance operators as time goes on.

 

[Discuss223]

What annoys me is when they don't even bother to put it in the space and just leave it in the vestibule, it can be very tight for space on say a Class 150.

 

[181]

I remember something on TV many many years ago. I think it was a news article about bike storage. Or possibly about people owning two bikes, one to cycle to their home station and one stored at their (usually London) destination.

Some senior rail boss says something like "I don't understand why anyone would want to put one form of transport onto another". So, that's someone who has never used a car ferry then?

Seems a bit vague. Despite working on the railway for over 40 years I never heard a ‘senior boss’ (or any other member of rail staff) say anything like that.

I don't have any details, and if it was on television I didn't see it myself, but I do remember it being reported at the time (maybe 1990s or early 2000s?) that a rail manager had said something like that, so it's mot just @Lockwood's imagination. (Car ferries immediately came to my mind too).

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The bike space can have its uses though when its not needed, a convenient place to have buggies for example.

Most TOCs advise that prams should be folded and placed in the luggage rack.

 

[Krokodil]

Most TOCs advise that prams should be folded and placed in the luggage rack.

Good luck enforcing that. The concept of using a compact pushchair on public transport that you can fold one-handed (as you're holding the kid in the other hand) seems to have been forgotten. Now pushchairs are the size of tanks and the guard will get abuse if they ask for the wheelchair space to be vacated so that a disabled passenger can use it.

 

[Discuss223]

Good luck enforcing that. The concept of using a compact pushchair on public transport that you can fold one-handed (as you're holding the kid in the other hand) seems to have been forgotten. Now pushchairs are the size of tanks and the guard will get abuse if they ask for the wheelchair space to be vacated so that a disabled passenger can use it.

When I was a child, there was no such thing as low-floor transport.

My parents folded my pushchair before getting on to the train or bus and carried me to the seat.

I am talking about trains with steep and narrow steps such as the Class 141s too!

Parents should expect to fold their pushchairs up prior to boarding.

They have no right in law to use any un-seated space on the train.

Train Managers can and do get the assistance of British Transport Police if customers are being abusive and disruptive.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Last summer we travelled with our bicycles from Reading to Castle Cary on a Friday morning and, knowing the train would be busy, made a point of reserving our cycle spaces in advance, as recommended by GWR. When the 5-car IET arrived at Reading we found the cycle spaces were both stacked to the roof with suitcases and we were unable to board. Anticipating a similar scenario on the next train two hours later we headed into Paddington and made sure we loaded the bikes before the platform was announced. Sure enough, when our train arrived back at Reading there were two other cyclists on the platform who were now also unable to board as we had taken the spaces!

 

[Peter0124]

Most TOCs advise that prams should be folded and placed in the luggage rack.

That rarely happens in practice, especially if its a suburban service. Like what would be the point in folding a pram for a 4 minute journey when there's a free bike space for example.

You also often find families with prams sharing the cycle space on TPE 397s.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

The bike space can have its uses though when its not needed, a convenient place to have buggies for example. And also it could be used as standing space if a train is busy.

Yes... Standing space... If there were grab rails, totally. I've lost count of the time I've seen Northern guards trying to convince people to move down the corridor of a 195/331, but you can't stand beside a table because there's nothing to hang on to. If we want to use all the available space, we need to make provision to use it

Don't give them ideas.

I'm sure Northern have already had that idea - ordering a fleet of trains to run to and from Manchester airport with no luggage storage!

Wheelchairs shouldn’t be charged for, however they are also subject to capacity restrictions, hence it’s a good idea to make reservations. Ultimately capacity is limited and needs to be rationed

Good luck enforcing that. The concept of using a compact pushchair on public transport that you can fold one-handed (as you're holding the kid in the other hand) seems to have been forgotten. Now pushchairs are the size of tanks and the guard will get abuse if they ask for the wheelchair space to be vacated so that a disabled passenger can use it.

I'd be very careful turning a wheelchair user away - a driver for (I think)!FirstBus did that as the bus was full, including standees, stating there was another bus some time behind. There was a complaint, and it ended up with a prosecution of the driver.

(A quick Google suggests there have been a number of prosecutions, in fact, despite the drivers not being allowed to turf passengers off, one of which was brought by Doug Paulley)

Full sure, but the proportion of Avanti/LNER/GWR/sleeper journeys I've been on where the luggage situation is as bad as every single Lumo journey I've taken where I've been blocking vestibules or stacked up in toilets or they've allocated seats as luggage space which have then filled is minuscule.

Avanti are terrible for luggage, although there is a part of me that thinks it's really stupid to have a tiny luggage rack at the end of the carriage and a massive one in the middle...

 

[Krokodil]

Train Managers can and do get the assistance of British Transport Police if customers are being abusive and disruptive.

If they turn up within 20 minutes it's a good day.

I'd be very careful turning a wheelchair user away

Oh I'm stubborn enough to say that the train isn't moving until the space is vacated. If management want to know about the delay they get a curt response about the number of vehicles in a unit. Some guards will just wilt though and the passenger gets left behind for several trains in a row (I hate the summer holidays)

 

[Lockwood]

I don't have any details, and if it was on television I didn't see it myself, but I do remember it being reported at the time (maybe 1990s or early 2000s?) that a rail manager had said something like that, so it's mot just @Lockwood's imagination. (Car ferries immediately came to my mind too).

Thanks for the backup - I was going to pin it on that era. I couldn't remember the name or role of the senior boss guy, but I also couldn't remember if it was still British Rail or Railtrack or an early TOC.

 

[trainophile]

Maybe it's time the acceptable luggage size was reviewed. So many people these days seem to travel with suitcases the size of a sideboard, they can barely wheel them through the aisles, bashing people's knees as they go. It's not the odd one either, it's probably 50% of long distance passengers. Unless they are heading off for a cruise it's hard to imagine why they need such huge cases, often with additional sizeable hold-alls as well. For comparison I just had three nights away with everything I needed in a 12-litre backpack and a small carrier bag. For a week I'd probably need a 20-litre backpack.

As for bikes, perhaps it should be Brompton-type bikes free, any non-folders a £10 supplement.

 

[43066]

I'd be very careful turning a wheelchair user away - a driver for (I think)!FirstBus did that as the bus was full, including standees, stating there was another bus some time behind. There was a complaint, and it ended up with a prosecution of the driver.

The situation I was thinking about is where a wheelchair user (with a reservation) is already on the train, and another wheelchair user who hasn’t reserved wishes to board.