Bilbao to Madrid (and then Portugal)

[williamn]

I'm planning a trip to Portugal (Porto) and am looking at getting the ferry to Bilbao and then trying to take up Seat 61's itinerary to Porto via Vigo. However I can't seem to find anything other than buses on Renfe / Trainline between Bilbao and Madrid - is this right? Travel date is 22 March.

 

[Dumpton Park]

Renfe website provides this, Two direct trains, one with a change somewhere. Maybe Burgos or Valladolid, I expect.


07.00
4 h. 28 min.

11.28
ALVIA

desde
43,05 €

desde
49,20 €


15.20
6 h. 25 min.

21.45
LD-AVE

desde
102,10 €

desde
111,35 €


17.35
4 h. 28 min.

22.03
ALVIA

desde
30,75 €

desde
36,90 €

 

[Austriantrain]

I'm planning a trip to Portugal (Porto) and am looking at getting the ferry to Bilbao and then trying to take up Seat 61's itinerary to Porto via Vigo. However I can't seem to find anything other than buses on Renfe / Trainline between Bilbao and Madrid - is this right? Travel date is 22 March.

Having looked it up on the RENFE site just now, I find two direct ALVIAs on the 22nd of march, at 7:00 and at 17:35 respectively.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For quite a number of years, the Bilbao-Madrid Alvia service was a 4-car S-120, joining a similar set from Irun at Miranda de Ebro.
These are dual gauge units and ran through the gauge changer at Valladolid for the fast LAV run to Madrid.
The LAV has now been extended to Burgos where there is also a gauge changer, and it looks like there are now separate trains from Bilbao and Irun.
My recollection was that S-120s had a terrible ride on classic track, but rode much better on the LAV.
The line from Bilbao to Miranda de Ebro is very scenic.
Vigo-Porto is also scenic, and is now mostly electrified (not sure if the Portuguese and Spanish networks are actually joined up yet).
Vigo has two terminal stations, and the Porto services use Guixar in the port area, while most other services use Urzaiz up the hill in the town.

 

[williamn]

This is great, thank you! I'm not sure why I couldn't find these last night, I suspect that RENFE had some issues with their booking engine as it went down totally later on.

Supplementary question - the Madrid to Vigo trains don't seem to be bookable, is there any reason for this? Just too early?

 

[Giugiaro]

Vigo-Porto is also scenic, and is now mostly electrified (not sure if the Portuguese and Spanish networks are actually joined up yet).

Electrification and signaling systems are different in both countries. Currently, there is no electric rolling stock capable of doing the cross-border journey, so a Renfe 592 DMU is in use between Vigo-Guixar and Porto-Campanhã.

 

[nwales58]

The reason for everything is Renfe.

1) Best not to use third parties, always use renfe.com or their app (RENFE only provide partial information to third parties so, e.g., freshly-opened trains may not appear and you can't book all the add-ons; EU is rapping their knuckles on this at present)

2) Check earlier dates until you see the service pattern then wait till you can book. 'Not available for booking' means that - times are probably fixed but might change, fleet change or engineering work, so not accepting reservations yet.

Renfe booking horizons can be short and variable:
Bilbao Alvias are now booking until December which is unbelievably good by their standards.
Madrid-Galicia is only bookable to mid-March with non-bookable times for a week or so beyond, that is normal for Renfe.

If you ever get an S-120 Alvia or IC service, book a seat towards the middle, despite the door vestibule, at the ends you feel how bad the broad gauge track is.

 

[williamn]

The reason for everything is Renfe.

1) Best not to use third parties, always use renfe.com or their app (RENFE only provide partial information to third parties so, e.g., freshly-opened trains may not appear and you can't book all the add-ons; EU is rapping their knuckles on this at present)

2) Check earlier dates until you see the service pattern then wait till you can book. 'Not available for booking' means that - times are probably fixed but might change, fleet change or engineering work, so not accepting reservations yet.

Renfe booking horizons can be short and variable:
Bilbao Alvias are now booking until December which is unbelievably good by their standards.
Madrid-Galicia is only bookable to mid-March with non-bookable times for a week or so beyond, that is normal for Renfe.

If you ever get an S-120 Alvia or IC service, book a seat towards the middle, despite the door vestibule, at the ends you feel how bad the broad gauge track is.

Thank you, very useful! It's funny, I feel like in the UK we're constantly told how amazing everyone else's trains are but then I go to use them and am shocked at the infrequent schedules and things like short booking horizons!

I was also looking at the option of doing the cross country San Sebastian - Vigo service but it seems like theres a rail replacement bus for part of the journey, a least for the dates in March I was looking at.

 

[rvdborgt]

The reason for everything is Renfe.

1) Best not to use third parties, always use renfe.com or their app (RENFE only provide partial information to third parties so, e.g., freshly-opened trains may not appear and you can't book all the add-ons;

Except that Renfe's website is ****ty at best. Their booking module often hides useful journeys with a change, for example. I tend to plan using the DB planner and verify the individual trains on renfe.com.

 

[nwales58]

San Sebastian - Vigo service but it seems like theres a rail replacement bus for part of the journey,

Ourense-Monforte de Lemos is undergoing total modernisation, no idea which year it will be finished. It's a relatively short part of that journey.

That route is spectacular west of Astorga though and well worth seeing.

From Monforte, if you have time and don't want the bus, trains are running up to Lugo and Coruna then back down the not-quite-HS mainly new but some old lines to Vigo with the hilarious alternating between the two Vigo stations.

The NE-Vigo Alvia still goes down the Mino (river) west of Ourense (most services are via the HS to Santiago then back down) which is beautiful if your seat is on the south side of the train but probably in dark westbound in March, better eastbound.

Except that Renfe's website is ****ty at best. Their booking module often hides useful journeys with a change, for example. I tend to plan using the DB planner and verify the individual trains on renfe.com.

True, and some of the AVE-LD/MD connections have multi-hour waits that you would plan differently. Salamanca or Avila to the north there are much better own-risk connections at Valladolid than the few Renfe offer via Madrid.

Though when you book, only on renfe do you get the full 'Elige' experience: choose a seat, make it more changeable, refundable, package of free same day change plus other stuff, choose a meal box, add a bike, 10Kg dog, 40Kg dog etc each with its own supplement.

For Porto, I'd give up and use the coach from Vigo (despite the coach station being a bus ride south of the centre) because it's faster and much more frequent. Or coach Vigo-Valenca from where CP is much more frequent but still slow.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For what it's worth, I enjoyed a trip in this area by going Porto-Vigo-Santiago de Compostela-Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Avila-Madrid.
I bungled the dates and found I had a extra day and chose the route via Salamanca-Avila and was very impressed by both places.
But it was September and still warm, probably not so good for sightseeing in March.
The route from Medina to Salamanca is now electrified, with fast services to Madrid (with shorter but slower MD services via Avila).

 

[HS2isgood]

Bilbao to Madrid, in as example of a great Renfe offering, has two trains a day (and an absurd connection via Zaragoza). Both are series 120 EMUs with commercial pricing and mandatory reservations. That's because there's no longer any local service since 1998 between Bilbao and Miranda, so just the LDs remain.

Bilbao to Vigo is a journey with 3 transfers where Renfe will only sell you an itinerary for 3 days a week, although it exists all 7. Bilbao to Miranda is on an ancient 470 EMU, ran to replace the Camino de Santiago train, which was cut in 2020. Miranda to Monforte is a 130 EMU, the "Octopus", owing to the number of connections it has. A good train. From there there's a rail replacement coach to Ourense, where a 730 (bimode 130) runs down to Vigo on the scenic Vigo - Guillarei - Ourense line.

 

[nwales58]

Back when it was a through train I recall 3 coaches between Burgos Leon and Ourense, 2 continuing up to Coruna and one to Vigo.I think it was 1 from Bilbao 2 from San Sebastian but I could be wrong.

A 252 hauling a single coach Ourense-Vigo. Honestly.

 

[30907]

If you want to do the scenic route from Bilbao, would it be worth breaking the journey at eg Ourense, catching the morning train to Vigo and then the evening train to Porto. Unless there's a way of doing Guillarei-Tui-Valenca by bus, it's not far?

 

[Giugiaro]

Except that Renfe's website is ****ty at best. Their booking module often hides useful journeys with a change, for example.

In this case, trying to book a journey between Madrid and Porto will never work because the website doesn't list Vigo-Urzáiz and Vigo-Guixar as a viable connection.

You have to search and book first to/from Vigo-Urzáiz, then again for Vigo-Guixar.

 

[HS2isgood]

Back when it was a through train I recall 3 coaches between Burgos Leon and Ourense, 2 continuing up to Coruna and one to Vigo.I think it was 1 from Bilbao 2 from San Sebastian but I could be wrong.

A 252 hauling a single coach Ourense-Vigo. Honestly.

That was until the coaches were retired due to asbestos and sold to Comboios de Portugal, that removed the asbestos. Briefly before Covid a Coruña to Hendaye service ran with 252 + Talgo VI. In the future, when the Olmedo chord opens, it'll be a 120 via Valladolid and Zamora.

 

[stuu]

The really adventurous route would be Bilbao-Leon on the metre gauge line, and then onward from there to Vigo. Probably not doable in a day, but very scenic and almost certainly won't be around much longer

 

[HS2isgood]

The really adventurous route would be Bilbao-Leon on the metre gauge line, and then onward from there to Vigo. Probably not doable in a day, but very scenic and almost certainly won't be around much longer

Yeah, the metric gauge line doesn't have a great future with the Basque government asking for the Bilbao - La Calzada (halt in Balmaseda) section to be Euskotren, which, due to the political situation, they're likely to get. I don't think the line beyond can survive on the biweekly Arija freight traffic and with Kirkby stops at La Calzada. Also the bustitution in León with no easy end... Even though tram signalling for 4 2900s is being talked about.

 

[James H]

The metre gauge Bilbao León run is good fun. Glad I did it before the tramway nonsense started in León.

 

[Watershed]

I can certainly second the recommendation for the metre gauge Bilbao-León train. Don't rely on what the online timetable says; it's a work of fiction. Claims it's a direct train but in fact you change twice - once from an electric to a diesel unit at a station at the extremity of the Bilbao commuter network (perhaps Balmaseda?) and again at the outskirts of León (Asunción/Universidad) to a replacement bus into town.

That being said, it's a stunning journey, even if a very long one on some very strange-looking and not particularly comfortable units. No catering - bring your own picnic!

 

[HS2isgood]

I can certainly second the recommendation for the metre gauge Bilbao-León train. Don't rely on what the online timetable says; it's a work of fiction. Claims it's a direct train but in fact you change twice - once from an electric to a diesel unit at a station at the extremity of the Bilbao commuter network (perhaps Balmaseda?) and again at the outskirts of León (Asunción/Universidad) to a replacement bus into town.

That being said, it's a stunning journey, even if a very long one on some very strange-looking and not particularly comfortable units. No catering - bring your own picnic!

There's 1 safe change (Asunción to a bus) and 2 possible (Balmaseda change sometimes happens, as does Mataporquera change).

 

[williamn]

So I've had a bit of change to my plans. I'm now going to travel outwards by train on the route Seat 61 recommends, so to San Sebastian on Day 1 from London, then from there to Vigo on day 2 via Madrid. I need to be in Vigo in two days - is this the best route? There's not cross country option (I will be travelling on a Thursday from San Sebastian)? I'll meet a friend there and travel on to Porto Friday night.

On the return I'll probably be leaving Porto Sunday evening, staying the night in Vigo and then probably travelling to Bilbao on the Tuesday to catch the Wednesday lunchtime ferry back to the UK (which is incredibly expensive!). RENFE is recommending 07.20 from Vigo Guixar to Miranda De Ebro arr 15.55 (with I assume rail replacement part way) and then the 16.25 from Mirando to Bilbao.

Does anyone know how the rail replacement bit is? Is it UK style (no information, no staff, people milling around wondering what bus to get on) or a bit more organised?

Alternatively I may stay in Porto one more night and come back the same way I came...

 

[nwales58]

First, patience please, this is Renfe, the most baroque of the large train operators in Europe ...

Wise move to Thursday if via Madrid (Friday and Sunday are expensive or Tren Completo), though it's 74.70 Basico on the 0902 + 1600. 2h at Chamartin might be boring. It's probably the safest as it's a single ticket and gets you there much earlier. Alsa is about the same price and far less comfortable.

It is actually possible on Thursday to use the via Léon connection you saw on Friday, 1158 from San Sebastian arriving Vigo 2335. On alternate days the Barcelona-Coruna/Vigo Alvia splits at Ourense(*) and you can buy a through ticket. On the other days the there is a MD Ourense-Vigo in the same timings. You can buy a through Vitoria-Vigo any day, but only San Sebastian on the other days. Eg Vitoria-Vigo is 44.80 Basico + 6.15 San Sebastian-Vitoria on 21/03 at present. Ourense-Vigo is in the dark so if cost doesn't matter then Madrid is nicer times.

(*) Edit - of course that split is currently virtual as both parts start at Ourense anyway. Also where you see a MD fare it could be on an Alvia service. It's Renfe, it doesn't have to make sense.

You're aware of Urzaiz (where you'll arrive from Madrid) up the hill versus Guixar (for Porto as well as direct to Ourense going back) down by the docks?

Eastbound, 0720 from Vigo is up the river Minho in daylight so beautiful scenery, very bendy, very slow, pick a seat on the right.

Rail replacement at Ourense I don't know about. I'd expect it to be immediately outside the entrance where the taxis are (the normal bus station is down to the right but I wouldn't go there unless told to) - I'd expect signing and just saying Monforte or Léon to people should work. Westbound, Monforte is very quiet so it will be obvious what is happening.

By the way, for spending all day on the train I'd pick Elige Confort. In any case, Elige to pay to choose your own seat - quick rule on Renfe is if the door is in the centre of the coach don't pick a seat at the end unless you enjoy a see-saw (26m coaches on mediocre track = nasty throwover).

Edit - a good reason for doing this now is that Adif have put out to tender work to convert the lines out of Guixar including down to Tui and the border to 25Kv AC. That includes an 8 month, supposedly, total closure to increase clearances in a tunnel. When that starts Vigo-Valenca and Vigo-Ourense direct will be bustituted. When complete, including ETCS at some point, more kit will be able to operate Porto-Vigo. Given Adif's record, eg Salamanca-Vilar Formoso is still shut years after work started, there might be no trains across the border until 2030 or so.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Brittany Ferries Bilbao to Portsmouth runs on Tuesdays (d1300) and Thursdays (d1630). You would have to stay in Bilbao overnight to make the 1300 sailing as the city's train service is so hopeless. You could make the 1630 sailing off the 0715 ex Madrid. Note that the port is way out of the city-centre (13miles) - nearest metro station is Santurtzi. I quite like Valladolid for an overnight stay if coming from the Léon direction, giving you a later start than 0715.

 

[Alfie1014]

I travelled over the Miranda dep Ebro to Bilbao line last year for the first time, very scenic but the afternoon IC service was a 2 car suburban EMU!

 

[peteb]

I travelled from Santiago de Compostella to Santander April 2023. The train was met at Ourense by several staff, who also were meeting a connection from Vigo. We were directed in English to waiting buses which conveyed us to Monteforte. The journey was easy and it was interesting to see the huge reconstruction works on the adjacent railway line. At Monteforte our train awaited, huge long train with buffet car and a platypus nose at the front! This went a very scenic route via Léon, Palencia (where we got off), Miranda etc to Barcelona. It was a great journey. I'm doing it again next week on an afternoon from Léon to Bilbao via a change at Miranda. I was contemplating the narrow gauge from Leon to Bilbao "direct" but this takes 7 hours and arrives in darkness whereas the via Miranda route gets to Bilbao in daylight, a big plus for me. Incidentally if you aren't desperate to take the ferry from Bilbao there's a narrow gauge train to Santander which takes 3 hours but is timed to give good connections to Ryanair daytime or evening flights back to the UK (eg Birmingham). This is my plan.

I travelled over the Miranda dep Ebro to Bilbao line last year for the first time, very scenic but the afternoon IC service was a 2 car suburban EMU!

View attachment 152168

Just booked on this next week and the seating plan on the train suggests it's still the EMU despite Renfe marketing it as an Inter City train!!

 

[nwales58]

InterCity = anything less than (and cheaper than) Alvia.

Depending on the route could be loco-hauled Talgo, or Avant sets (used for some Friday+Sunday extras) or a delightful 44x.

 

[peteb]

InterCity = anything less than (and cheaper than) Alvia.

Depending on the route could be loco-hauled Talgo, or Avant sets (used for some Friday+Sunday extras) or a delightful 44x.

Reminds me of the "intercity" train between Clermont Ferrand and Béziers! (DMU then EMU)

 

[nwales58]

On the subject of Bilbao, the 14 platform double deck, both underground, incredible wet dream rebuild of Abando is now promised for around 2033.

The temporary terminus will be miles out at Basauri for 5 years or so during construction.

What is happening to the Concordia metre gauge services during Abando reconstruction I haven't seen, their tunnel goes through the middle of the future lower level approaches so presumably will be truncated at Ametzola or Basurto.

 

[williamn]

I travelled over the Miranda dep Ebro to Bilbao line last year for the first time, very scenic but the afternoon IC service was a 2 car suburban EMU!

View attachment 152168

Wouldn't see much of the scenery from some of those windows given the graffiti!