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Bill Bryson & CPRE tackle Network Rail over litter

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pendolino

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Story here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/14/bryson-railway-litter-campaign

Not sure what to make of this really. Yes, litter at stations can be a problem, maybe as a result of there being no litter bins at many of them. London Bridge is the only station mentioned that I'm familiar with but I think Network Rail do a reasonable job keeping it litter-free, given the number of people passing through there (yes, those same people a minority of whom drop the litter in the first) - platforms possessions to pick up litter on the track, cleaners going around the concourse litter picking.

Can't help thinking the CPRE would be better targeting the people who drop the litter in the first place, maybe a joint campaign with Network Rail?
 
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cuccir

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Saw an interview with Bryson this morning; it looks to me like the campaign is as much because Network Rail have been a bit slow to respond to previous enquiries/complaints as much as anything else.

So meh, it's an important task that Network Rail have but not their most important either. Probably good that someone's keeping them on their toes about it, as long as the demands made are not unreasonable.
 

Ploughman

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12446952

All very well trying to get NWR to clear up the litter.
The only trouble is where does most of it come from?
The PUBLIC. From dropping it on the floor and it blowing around.
also from those anti social B******s who tip their rubbish over the fence.
The men on the ground on the railway know where it comes from and would love to be able to throw it back over the garden fence but can't.

A number of years back, when the litter legislation was brought in, the railway under Railtrack did organise some major clean ups, the only trouble was for every skip load picked up loads more got dumped back over.
To organise a pick up what would be needed?
Minimum T2 possession or equivalent, probable T3 maybe Isolation, Road rail equipment for moving skips how many bodies to do the actual pick up. Not forgetting the needle hazard. especially around bridges and alongside roads / paths.
 

Clip

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All but one in that story are not the responsibility of NR though. And there is nothing to stop them from having bin rings with clear plastic bags on the stations - apart from maybe the london ones..
 

jopsuk

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See in the car park at Cambridge on Saturday- a "ring" bin with a bag in it- except the bag wasn't sealed at the bottom.
 

Tom B

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I've been told to leave litter on at least two occasions by rail staff - until the railways bother to provide bins (don't give me the terrorism excuse, it's a load of rubbish) they can hardly complain about people dropping litter.
 

talltim

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The southern approach to Sheffield station is terrible. Its pretty much all stuff thats been dumped 'over the wall' by the public, fly tippers and industry that backs onto the line, but whoever has created it, it still gives a very bad impression.
The Guardian article does mention stations, but I got the impression that it was the lineside that the campaign was gunning for, which is the remit of NR. In my experience the public parts of stations do tend to be pretty litter free.
 

WestCoast

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I've been told to leave litter on at least two occasions by rail staff - until the railways bother to provide bins (don't give me the terrorism excuse, it's a load of rubbish) they can hardly complain about people dropping litter.

Bombs in bins certainly used to be quite common, I can think of at least three examples of bombs that the IRA placed in litter bins. This can easily be rectified by using transparent bin liners though.
 

Clip

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Bombs in bins certainly used to be quite common, I can think of at least three examples of bombs that the IRA placed in litter bins. This can easily be rectified by using transparent bin liners though.

Wasnt Victoria bombing a bomb in bin?
 

WestCoast

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Wasnt Victoria bombing a bomb in bin?

Yes, In 1991 the IRA put a bomb in a litter bin in Victoria station, killing one and injuring 38. After that, bins were banned at all London stations.
 

ANorthernGuard

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I'm sure Network Rail have more important things to consider than cleaning up litter or graffiti bet it is already costing millions to clean as it is, with cuts in the budget etc. I can't see a pile of money going to cleaning litter etc. up
 

Clip

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I'm sure Network Rail have more important things to consider than cleaning up litter or graffiti bet it is already costing millions to clean as it is, with cuts in the budget etc. I can't see a pile of money going to cleaning litter etc. up

They do have contracted crews who do lineside litter picking dont they - im sure ive seen them out and about in the South east before
 

moonrakerz

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Yes, In 1991 the IRA put a bomb in a litter bin in Victoria station, killing one and injuring 38. After that, bins were banned at all London stations.

This was a typical let's do something move ! BTP actually recommended that bins be removed from certain stations, not sure if these were actually defined - but it seemed to cause every bin on every station to vanish.

In 1999 this was lifted, but the bins didn't seem to come back.
"Restrictions" were put in place again after the 2005 bombs - quite what these were meant to achieve is a complete mystery - surely, as the bombs were on trains and buses it would have made more sense to ban people from using these means of transport rather than removing the few litter bins that had reappeared. Still - they had to do something, no matter how pointless - as usual !
 

Tom B

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This was a typical let's do something move ! BTP actually recommended that bins be removed from certain stations, not sure if these were actually defined - but it seemed to cause every bin on every station to vanish.

In 1999 this was lifted, but the bins didn't seem to come back.
"Restrictions" were put in place again after the 2005 bombs - quite what these were meant to achieve is a complete mystery - surely, as the bombs were on trains and buses it would have made more sense to ban people from using these means of transport rather than removing the few litter bins that had reappeared. Still - they had to do something, no matter how pointless - as usual !

Quite. Does Bin Laden trundle up to the station with his bomb and think "Dammit, the bins have been removed! The infidels have won! I shall go home and hand myself in to the authorities" or does he put it somewhere else?!
 

WestCoast

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Quite. Does Bin Laden trundle up to the station with his bomb and think "Dammit, the bins have been removed! The infidels have won! I shall go home and hand myself in to the authorities" or does he put it somewhere else?!

I still don't think that they should have traditional litter bins at underground stations or main terminals - anywhere else is OK though. It's just eliminating that extra little bit of risk. A bin with a transparent liner is fine at the main terminals - it's easier for the people who have to empty them aswell.
 

12CSVT

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More should be done to prosecute the litter louts who dump rubbish on the track in the first place.
 

moonrakerz

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I still don't think that they should have traditional litter bins at underground stations or main terminals - anywhere else is OK though. It's just eliminating that extra little bit of risk.
There is only logic in getting rid of heavy cast bins (if there was ever any logic in the whole thing !) as these would shatter and turn into a huge fragmentation grenade. A conventional lightweight bin would have negligible effect on the blast pattern or debris.

A bin with a transparent liner is fine at the main terminals - it's easier for the people who have to empty them aswell.

Transparent bins are only any use if the bombs are of the "Tom & Jerry" type !
111895x.jpg


Is anyone going to recognise a bomb inside a Gregg's cream cake box ??

Pointless - yet again !
 

OuterDistant

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It always makes me laugh that there are no bins at main stations because of the security risk, but what's the first thing I see when I get on a train? A bin!
 

Clip

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Quite. Does Bin Laden trundle up to the station with his bomb and think "Dammit, the bins have been removed! The infidels have won! I shall go home and hand myself in to the authorities" or does he put it somewhere else?!

Well given we still have the potential threat from Irish Dissidents who made their name from hiding their bombs in places like bins then maybe i dont think you should be so nonchalant about it.. And this is also why Londons terminals dont have(or shouldnt) the fire assembly points marked with the green signs anymore because that was another of their tactic
Maybe you would like to have to deal with the aftermath of one before making crass comments?


It always makes me laugh that there are no bins at main stations because of the security risk, but what's the first thing I see when I get on a train? A bin!

but people on a train are more spread out and thus the impact of a bomb in a bin of that small size wouldn't be as horrific as a packed concourse at rush hour where you could fit in a much bigger one with more devastating impact.

And remember the Madrid bombings were not in the bins but in luggage on the trains..

Whilst getting rid of the bins to some of you may seem silly and a knee jerk reaction to be doing something - Lessening the risk posed is surely a lot better then keeping that avenue open? Same reason why after july 05 they shut off and done away with the post boxes...
 

moonrakerz

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Maybe you would like to have to deal with the aftermath of one before making crass comments?
Not crass - a perfectly reasonable and witty observation on a totally pointless measure.

And remember the Madrid bombings were not in the bins but in luggage on the trains..

Just to show we are not alone in our stupidity. I was in Valencia after the Madrid bombings - full airport security had been introduced, X ray machines, metal detectors, checks of ID - BUT only on the IC trains. The local trains, which is what were actually bombed, had NO checks whatsoever !

Lessening the risk posed is surely a lot better then keeping that avenue open? Same reason why after july 05 they shut off and done away with the post boxes...


Your concept of risk assessment is sadly lacking - WHAT on earth has closing post boxes got to do with the London bombings ?? Banning rucksacks would have be a slightly better option perhaps ?

Perhaps it was because post boxes are red - same colour as tube trains and buses........................
 

Clip

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Not crass - a perfectly reasonable and witty observation on a totally pointless measure.



Just to show we are not alone in our stupidity. I was in Valencia after the Madrid bombings - full airport security had been introduced, X ray machines, metal detectors, checks of ID - BUT only on the IC trains. The local trains, which is what were actually bombed, had NO checks whatsoever !




Your concept of risk assessment is sadly lacking - WHAT on earth has closing post boxes got to do with the London bombings ?? Banning rucksacks would have be a slightly better option perhaps ?

Perhaps it was because post boxes are red - same colour as tube trains and buses........................

Well im glad you think yourself witty, maybe the one who died at victoria would like to agree with you? And yes i do find it crass seeing how i had to deal with the July bombings - but of course humour must come first.

Wasn't my idea of assessing the risk - surprisingly that came down to the BTP who recommended it and we done it on the station.

Whilst i fully understand that not everywhere can be safe from terrorism and the suicide bomber who will always be a threat - wouldnt you just like to know that people are doing what they can to make it a little bit safer for you? Or is everything about it just a big laugh and we should go back to not having locks on the wheelie bins and all the measures that are in place to try and make the travelling public that little bit safer?
 

Hydro

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but people on a train are more spread out and thus the impact of a bomb in a bin of that small size wouldn't be as horrific as a packed concourse at rush hour where you could fit in a much bigger one with more devastating impact.


Let's leave the explosive theory to the nice men at Qinetiq and the DSTL at Fort Halstead. Needless to say, the amount of explosives isn't necessarily key to the amount of destruction a bomb can do.

Face it, anti-terrorism is a game. Security services put procedures like no bins, anti-VBIED road blocks and so on, and the bad guys change tactics. The security services then change tack to foil these new tactics, and the bad guys evolve again. As much as MI5 would like Barry Scott to wheel out a spray that ironically claims "BANG, AND THE BOMBS ARE GONE!", it won't happen.
 

Clip

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Let's leave the explosive theory to the nice men at Qinetiq and the DSTL at Fort Halstead. Needless to say, the amount of explosives isn't necessarily key to the amount of destruction a bomb can do.
.

i would love to work fro them though.. Go on let us please.. :lol:
 

4SRKT

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Bombs in bins was and is a negligible threat, and removing bins was a totally disproportionate response. It's obviously handy for Govts to have people in a constant state of slight fear and paranoia to keep them in line, and some of the responses on this thread suggest that it works a lot of the time: people can be persuaded that *something* (anything) is better than just ignoring a negligible threat, no matter how inconvenient the result, and this sort of measure/gesture helps ratchet up the useful fear. The same is true of having trained chimps going through your baggage at airports, and anyone who questions this insanity is labelled a 'supporter of terrorism'. 'Irish dissidents' appear to be being lined up as the next bogeyman (already mentioned in this thread), despite the fact that these people are totally out of step with nationalist thinking both in Northern Ireland and the Republic, and are a handful of cranks with about as much explosives between them as a box of Standard Fireworks.

I was living in Northern Ireland during the no-bins-on-stations era, and (happily) the BTP had no jurisdiction there. I mused more than once on the irony that the only mainline railway station in the UK to have bins was Belfast Central. I have been at Belfast Central more than once hours after the concourse had been blown up, and was simply able to buy a ticket and catch the train (the first time this happened I was somewhat speechless as I picked my way through the broken glass and fallen masonry to the booking office: Not a single person made any reference to the devastation surrounding them). No bins would not help here as people would simply through the bomb into the concourse from a passing car. This speaks volumes: that people who have to face a real threat, rather than 'useful idiots' who live in a safer era than probably has ever existed in the whole of history, yet who panic about non-existent ones, have a far greater sense of proportionality when it comes to what levels of disruption they are prepared to tolerate. Daily life in Northern Ireland was awkward enough then without removing litter bins FFS. I hope nobody would wish to suggest that the RUC had less experience of dealing with terrorism than the BTP! If there was a series of car bombs (actually far more common both in NI and in IRA attacks in Britain), would we agree to banning parked cars? I doubt it somehow.

What must it be like to spend your whole life in a mild state of fear and panic? To be carrying out a perpetual risk assessment? Life's too short for this, and statistically it's incredibly unlikely that anything will ever happen to you. Still, I'm sure a number of posters on this forum can tell us what it's like to shudder every time they see a litter bin, or feel a sense of relief and warmth when some semi-articulate baboon who in a rational world would be lucky to have a job at all starts rummaging through their skid-marked smalls at the airport.
 
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Kneedown

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Regarding rubbish on the tracks, it's a problem at Bottesford West. There is a rubbish/recycling site adjacent to the signalbox that seems to deal with lots of plastic bags, but when the wind gets up a bit hundreds of the bags tend to get blown over on the line, sticking to the surrounding trees etc. Wouldn't be a problem if the site used covered skips.
 

moonrakerz

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Well im glad you think yourself witty

Sorry to destroy your argument, but I never said I was witty.

Let's leave the explosive theory to the nice men at Qinetiq and the DSTL at Fort Halstead.

i would love to work fro them though.. Go on let us please.. :lol:

I did - for 12 years !

Or is everything about it just a big laugh
.. Go on let us please.. :lol:

It would appear to be a "big laugh" according to you - I never used: :lol: on this topic !
 
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