Birmingham New Street to Sheffield delayed journey, 15 year old travelling alone.

[Pemberton]

Earlier this week my 15 year old granddaughter travelled from Birmingham New Street to Sheffield. To save money she split the journey with child advance tickets for specified trains as follows:-

BHM dep 1430 XC Service
DBY arr 1504

DBY dep 1510 EMR service
SHF arr 1542

The 1430 train was actually calling at Sheffield on it's route to what I think was it's final destination of Newcastle.

Due to a delay the 1430 train left BHM at 1450 and inevitably the 1510 departure from DBY was never going to be made. This BHM departure actually arrived in Derby at 1517.

I hadn't had a hand in booking the tickets and the first I knew of the journey was my granddaughter ringing me quite stressed for advice during her 20 minute delay at Birmingham New Street.

I felt that as XC were responsible for the delay, she would possibly be entitled to minimalise the delay by staying on the late running XC to go directly to Sheffield. I advised she asked this if there was a ticket check, confident it would be allowed.

There was a ticket check and in what I'm told was a no nonsense, dismissive manner, my granddaughter was told she had to comply with the original ticket requirements and get off at Derby and catch a later EMR service.

I have a couple of questions please.

1. Was the train manager correct in turfing my granddaughter off the late running train when XC was going to cause the missed DBY connection and when XC had it in their immediate power to remedy the situation by letting my granddaughter stay on their direct service?

2. My granddaughter had a clearly marked child eticket. Being a child, is that not the type of case where a proper duty of care should also be considered?

There's not much else to add. My granddaughter had made the journey with a Derby change once before though with a friend and this was her first time travelling alone. She caught a later EMR service at Derby and arrived 20 minutes later than her original ticket schedule in Sheffield.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[miklcct]

The second ticket was an EMR ticket so she has to take the EMR train and claim XC for Delay Repay, but as it is under the threshold there is no compensation due.

 

[danm14]

1. Was the train manager correct in turfing my granddaughter off the late running train when XC was going to cause the missed DBY connection and when XC had it in their immediate power to remedy the situation by letting my granddaughter stay on their direct service?

Yes. She had no entitlement to remain on the CrossCountry service beyond Derby, and was entitled to take a later EMR train from Derby.

The train manager could have chosen to allow her to remain on board, but ultimately chose not to - a choice he was free to make.

Your granddaughter's choice to save money by getting off a CrossCountry train to Sheffield at Derby, then take EMR from Derby to Sheffield - rather than buying a ticket for the entire journey to Sheffield on CrossCountry - may well have influenced the train manager's decision.

2. My granddaughter had a clearly marked child eticket. Being a child, is that not the type of case where a proper duty of care should also be considered?

Why would a "duty of care" mean she should not have to change train at Derby when she was originally planning to change at Derby?

 

[Pemberton]

She was prepared for her original schedule and change at Derby, less so with wondering what to do when the original connection was going to be missed.

 

[Krokodil]

1. Was the train manager correct in turfing my granddaughter off the late running train when XC was going to cause the missed DBY connection and when XC had it in their immediate power to remedy the situation by letting my granddaughter stay on their direct service?

Technically yes. I would have used my discretion in those circumstances in the name of good customer service but the guard is doing it by the book.

2. My granddaughter had a clearly marked child eticket. Being a child, is that not the type of case where a proper duty of care should also be considered?

Derby was presumably fully staffed at that time of day so she's not being abandoned in the middle of nowhere.

 

[LowLevel]

She was prepared for her original schedule and change at Derby, less so with wondering what to do when the original connection was going to be missed.

With the greatest of respect, if you're going to chop and change tickets to save money, including a minimum connection time change, it seems a bit unreasonable to expect a ticket inspector to extend this kind of leeway. Might it be nice for them to do so? Sure. Should they feel obliged? No. The next EMR service was at 1530, a short 10 minute wait off the Newcastle service and Derby is a station with full platform staffing and one of the easier interchanges on the network.

If you don't want the possible hoops to jump through with split tickets, then don't split tickets.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume the reported ~20 minute delay, as was experienced by the OP's daughter (expected arrival time into Sheffield vs actual arrival time) precludes any possibility of a successful Delay Repay claim from Cross Country, as their threshold is 30+ minutes, isn't it?

 

[Pemberton]

As a 15 year old, inexperienced traveller there is a world of difference between following a set schedule and being put in the position of wondering what to do when delays mean plans must change. Funding an alternative train time and knowing if the ticket is valid isn't easy for such a person. The short turnaround at Derby was simply the Trainline itinerary with her tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

A few things here. Firstly, sending a child on their own to make a journey by rail requires the parent or guardian to be satisfied the child can manage the journey. And not just capacity of getting on and off the right trains, but the initiative to handle a cancellation or delay.

Secondly, splitting tickets and making the choice to save money by splitting at Derby, whether this was by design or not, means that XC didn’t have a responsibility to carry her to Sheffield. The train manager has correctly advised that the right thing to do is take the next available train from Derby. This is something I would expect an average 15 year old to have the capacity to do by themselves.

Regarding duty of care, I don’t consider a 15 year old changing at one of the largest and most well staffed junction stations in the country puts them in any jeopardy. It would be different had she had a long layover or been stranded somewhere remote.

I think, on balance, if I was a guard here, I might allow her to stay on the train if she had asked. 15 year olds can range from bolshy and overconfident to meek wallflowers. If she’d have come across as nervous or especially worried I’d have probably sighed and said “sure - we aren’t supposed to do this but you can this time”. At the very least I would have looked up the alternate train and told them our arrival platform and the one the next train would leave from.

 

[Pemberton]

Thank you AlterEgo for your considered reply. I shall let the matter rest now. She caught a direct coach back to Birmingham!

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you AlterEgo for your considered reply. I shall let the matter rest now. She caught a direct coach back to Birmingham!

Yes, I think the one thing I omitted to mention is that I think most 15 year olds are a bit more capable than (grand)parents give them credit for! And it’s always better to be too worried than not worried enough about their safety.

 

[Watershed]

With the greatest of respect, if you're going to chop and change tickets to save money, including a minimum connection time change, it seems a bit unreasonable to expect a ticket inspector to extend this kind of leeway. Might it be nice for them to do so? Sure. Should they feel obliged? No. The next EMR service was at 1530, a short 10 minute wait off the Newcastle service and Derby is a station with full platform staffing and one of the easier interchanges on the network.

If you don't want the possible hoops to jump through with split tickets, then don't split tickets.

I don't think it's unreasonable for passengers to expect the industry to try and mitigate any delays that occur, by allowing them to travel on the next available train. Yes, the absolute entitlement to such re-routing only arises after an anticipated delay of 61+ minutes, but surely you must recognise that it is good customer service to do so for any delay that causes someone to miss a connection.

Split ticketing is also far from the niche activity it used to be even just a few years ago. Now that Trainline proactively offer it, a significant number of people use it whether they realise it or not. It's wrong to suggest that people are somehow "chancing their arm" or are less deserving of assistance if they buy split tickets.

During a time when the industry is struggling to recover passenger numbers and the DfT is desperate to cut costs, it seems utterly counterproductive to p*** people off and incur additional Delay Repay liability by being a jobsworth in this situation...

 

[LowLevel]

I don't think it's unreasonable for passengers to expect the industry to try and mitigate any delays that occur, by allowing them to travel on the next available train. Yes, the absolute entitlement to such re-routing only arises after an anticipated delay of 61+ minutes, but surely you must recognise that it is good customer service to do so for any delay that causes someone to miss a connection.

Split ticketing is also far from the niche activity it used to be even just a few years ago. Now that Trainline proactively offer it, a significant number of people use it whether they realise it or not. It's wrong to suggest that people are somehow "chancing their arm" or are less deserving of assistance if they buy split tickets.

During a time when the industry is struggling to recover passenger numbers and the DfT is desperate to cut costs, it seems utterly counterproductive to p*** people off and incur additional Delay Repay liability by being a jobsworth in this situation...

I did say "might it be nice? Sure". Personally I am quite chilled about any such thing at the best of times but then my employer is generally very laid back about guards using their discretion.

However I don't see the point in complaining about it. Popular or not Split Ticketing is still a bit of a loophole that comes with pitfalls - like most of the clever new tech and ways of doing things that have arisen since I started doing the job, I seem to spend far more time sorting out things going wrong than I ever did when I was the one selling most of the tickets! Quite impressive really given the total lack of practical training on the various interfaces we have and the fact I have literally never used one in anger.

 

[Krokodil]

Out of interest, was the split one of the ones done by an app, or had she done it manually? It seems odd for a journeyplanner-planned journey to involve multiple trains when there's a through train available, unless there's a situation like Wolverhampton where Avanti trains from Scotland towards Birmingham get overtaken by XC so pax for BHM are often given reservations involving changing there even though the train they were already on does stop at their destination.

 

[Pemberton]

The Trainline app offered the chosen journey schedule. I assume my granddaughter, with saving the pennies in mind, chose the cheapest option. I'm proud of her efforts.

 

[danm14]

One other angle - did your granddaughter remain on board at Derby, have her tickets inspected between Derby and Chesterfield, and get instructed to leave the train at Chesterfield to await the EMR service? Or were her tickets inspected (or she sought help) prior to Derby and she was instructed to alight as planned at Derby?

If the former, I could imagine the guard getting the impression that she had no intention of changing train at Derby at all even if there wasn't a delay, and always intended to remain on board the CrossCountry service without a valid ticket.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I remember upon privatisation, when I worked in ticket offices, impartiality was drummed into us. All these staff that have been employed since privatisation do not think of the railway as a whole thing. The passenger should have been allowed to remain on the train.
But then again, the fact splitting allows this situation to have occurred in the first place means the whole fare structure needs to be looked at properly

 

[rg177]

It's one of those 'nice to have' things where ideally the TM would have allowed it - but there's no obligation. The general consensus from the industry is that they'd rather you follow rules to the letter (even if that ends up with daft situations like getting 100% compensation back rather than having the delay minimised).

Incidentally, I remember being on a XC service making a Derby to Newcastle journey late one evening circa 2016. I had a 1st class Derby to York advance then a Standard advance on an LNER/VTEC service from York that'd follow us in behind. Being very tired and not keen on moving (we weren't delayed), I asked if the TM if I could stay on, expecting a no. He not only agreed but told me to stay in First! So it is very much dependent on the individual most of the time.

 

[Haywain]

I remember upon privatisation, when I worked in ticket offices, impartiality was drummed into us. All these staff that have been employed since privatisation do not think of the railway as a whole thing. The passenger should have been allowed to remain on the train.

Impartiality in a ticket office is very important but being a guard on a train is more about revenue protection, which is very different. The two are not comparable.

 

[Krokodil]

The Trainline app offered the chosen journey schedule.

I think that I've found the journey. It's a similar situation to Wolverhampton. There's one train a day from Banbury to Newcastle which sits in Derby for 10+ minutes and is overtaken by a London-Sheffield service. For an extra £4 (but still less overall than a through Advance would have been) there would have been an Advance for the second half that would have meant that she could have stayed on the same train. Had she ticked "direct trains only" or "include overtaken" that option would have presented itself. Crosscountry trains are notoriously overcrowded (and that one is routinely a four-car Voyager) so I'm not surprised that the guard would have insisted on the rules being followed. After all, another company has had 100% of the onward fare, why should XC spare one of its lesser-spotted seats?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

After all, another company has had 100% of the onward fare, why should XC spare one of its lesser-spotted seats?

Because XC were responsible for the delay and inconveniencing the passenger. Perhaps?

 

[contrex]

Yes, I think the one thing I omitted to mention is that I think most 15 year olds are a bit more capable than (grand)parents give them credit for! And it’s always better to be too worried than not worried enough about their safety.

I was doing journeys longer than that when I was 14! My grandparents would drive me to the remote station, then the only advice I got was 'don't lose your ticket!'. By train with 2 changes to London, then tube (one change), then Southern Electric to near-home station then LT bus to home.. My mother was working at 15.

Cue red-hot gravel jokes?

 

[DeverseSam]

I am surprised no-one has mentioned that the preferred booking site allows you to increase the interchange time, which would avoided this issue. Of course this would also reduce the delay repay opportunities

For an extra £4 (but still less overall than a through Advance would have been) there would have been an Advance for the second half that would have meant that she could have stayed on the same train.

£4 is a lot for a teenager to pay to save a few minutes, no?

 

[miklcct]

I am surprised no-one has mentioned that the preferred booking site allows you to increase the interchange time, which would avoided this issue. Of course this would also reduce the delay repay opportunities


£4 is a lot for a teenager to pay to save a few minutes, no?

I'll pay £4 if I can save an hour from my journey.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'll pay £4 if I can save an hour from my journey.

That's as may be, but it would seem that had the trains run on time, the OP's daughter, using the split tickets, should actually have arrived Sheffield some six minutes earlier than staying on the XC service, by changing onto EMR at Derby.

 

[miklcct]

Incidents such as this have destroyed my confidence using Advance tickets anymore as I'll need to pay extra to catch up time when it's the railway's fault delaying me, and under most circumstances these Advance tickets only have a small discount over a flexible off-peak / super off-peak return which allows me to break my journey wherever I want and take any trains on the line of route to catch up time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Seems a bit mean of the Train Manager, but IME that’s the XC corporate culture these days, as I’ve found in disruption (they’ll accept tickets, but that doesn’t extend to a complimentary coffee in first…)

That said, there’s a good chance the passenger would have had to relinquish her seat at Derby anyway, and my general opinion is that the fewer minutes spent on a Voyager the better.

 

[Haywain]

the fewer minutes spent on a Voyager the better

When you're just changing to a different version of the same thing - a Meridian - there's no gain.

 

[AlterEgo]

Incidents such as this have destroyed my confidence using Advance tickets anymore as I'll need to pay extra to catch up time when it's the railway's fault delaying me

Do you usually book tickets like the OP which make your journey, in fact, intentionally longer?

 

[miklcct]

That's as may be, but it would seem that had the trains run on time, the OP's daughter, using the split tickets, should actually have arrived Sheffield some six minutes earlier than staying on the XC service, by changing onto EMR at Derby.

Do you usually book tickets like the OP which make your journey, in fact, intentionally longer?

Didn't the OP save both money and time by making an unnecessary change?