Bishops Lydeard - Frome/Westbury service?

[brad465]

Thinking recently about how the spine of Somerset could be better served, the titled service came to mind as a possibility. My idea is the West Somerset railway from Taunton-Bishops Lydeard would be upgraded to NR standard, and the latter station along with a new station at Norton Fitzwarren would be served, with both towns seeing notable housing developments recently. The service would then continue east from Taunton to serve a new Langport-Somerton station (something that is already trying to be pushed for approval), Castle Cary, Bruton and Frome, which would see the second platform reopen to handle extra train frequency. Ideally the service would continue to Westbury for better interchange options, but there may not be the capacity to do this given the increased freight demand and extra Westbury traffic.

The service would be hourly and would link multiple housing developments/expanding towns to the rail network, as well as improving frequency on a route which is poor for intermediate stations. Among hurdles that would have to be overcome, the proposed signalling upgrade between Cogload and Castle Cary would have to happen (currently 2 aspect only), the aforementioned WSR upgrade requirement, upgrading Frome station and GWR would almost certainly have to get increased rolling stock approved, given the current levels can't even cope with current services. There may also be capacity constraints if the all day hourly Weymouth services are approved, such that CLC-Frome/Westbury sees 2tph stopping services, 1-2tph Intercity and whatever freight demand there is on top. What do others think?

 

[dgl]

I bet go-op have plans for a service from Bishops Lydeard, they've had enough ideas for services in the area.

 

[Gloster]

I think you would have to have a station in both Langport and Somerton: the line passes right through the centre of both and would be in walking distance of much of both towns. Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly. Additionally I would reckon that you should take the service right through to Trowbridge as east Somerset looks more towards it than Taunton (unless things have changed a lot in twenty years), although Bath is more important. I would suspect that you have two flows of passengers, with the division around Castle Cary.

 

[brad465]

I think you would have to have a station in both Langport and Somerton: the line passes right through the centre of both and would be in walking distance of much of both towns. Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly. Additionally I would reckon that you should take the service right through to Trowbridge as east Somerset looks more towards it than Taunton (unless things have changed a lot in twenty years), although Bath is more important. I would suspect that you have two flows of passengers, with the division around Castle Cary.

I don't think the case exists for two stations. If I had to choose one I'd put it in the middle of Langport, which is larger when the neighbouring settlement of Huish Episcopi is added.

On the point about where East Somerset looks to, this idea is actually a combination of 2-3 potential passenger flows: I don't think there are many Bishops Lydeard folk going to East Somerset, but they would go to Taunton and connect for Bridgwater/Bristol/Exeter/London. Taunton-Frome would mainly be for the benefit of serving the intermediate stations, but if the flow comes into existence may become an attractive one in its own right. Really a service for all of these needs to pass through Taunton rather than terminate it, as both the east and west-facing bay platforms are poorly linked/located. As I mentioned I think extending to Westbury would make it more viable, which would allow for Trowbridge/Warminster and beyond connections, but this may need some form of capacity upgrade first.

 

[MarkyT]

I think you would have to have a station in both Langport and Somerton: the line passes right through the centre of both and would be in walking distance of much of both towns. Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly. Additionally I would reckon that you should take the service right through to Trowbridge as east Somerset looks more towards it than Taunton (unless things have changed a lot in twenty years), although Bath is more important. I would suspect that you have two flows of passengers, with the division around Castle Cary.

I fully agree a parkway in the middle of nowhere is a poor solution where more central locations are available. There's no choice at somewhere like Devizes. A problem at some historic station sites might be accommodating suitable car parking nearby. Some locals may also get agitated about new stations creating extra traffic in the towns, although people having to use road transport to get to a remote rural location may result in more traffic overall if some who might have walked end up driving or being dropped off!

 

[zwk500]

It's an intriguing concept - I would be very doubtful of anything west of Taunton happening unless it was a turnback platform for the new developments at Norton Fitzwarren. Terminating Westbury will certainly cause problems, although it may not trigger additional infrastructure. The big issue with Westbury will be connecting into a London service.
Frome would almost certainly need to be upgraded, although it's probably less work than upgrading Taunton-Castle Cary signalling (which probably needs something, although it might be more limited than a wholesale renewal).

As a new service, 2 stations would probably be fine, the bigger concern would be the size of the places each would serve - Langport and Somerton are both no more than 5k from the look of it, so unless you were planning to double the size of each (which I'd be sympathetic to, but suspect the Locals would be less pleased!), I don't see either really justifying themselves. And if both of those go, well you're not really adding much to anybody's travel options.

 

[MarkyT]

It's an intriguing concept - I would be very doubtful of anything west of Taunton happening unless it was a turnback platform for the new developments at Norton Fitzwarren. Terminating Westbury will certainly cause problems, although it may not trigger additional infrastructure. The big issue with Westbury will be connecting into a London service.
Frome would almost certainly need to be upgraded, although it's probably less work than upgrading Taunton-Castle Cary signalling (which probably needs something, although it might be more limited than a wholesale renewal).

The signalling system in the area is getting on for 40 years old now, the nominal life of such assets, and although many components will have been renewed routinely over that time, the underlying ecosystem of trackside cabling and equipment cabinets is likely to be getting rather tired now. A wide-scale renewal of those parts could provide an opportunity to split the long blocks, as achieved recently in Cornwall and Devon.

 

[eldomtom2]

Once people have to get in their cars to drive to a ‘central’ station they will often stay in their cars. I also doubt if you could justify an hourly service, more like two-hourly.

But, of course, if there isn't a train when people want to travel they'll also stay in their cars. Does anyone know of any studies on the factors driving mode shift? Certainly when people talk about transit nowadays frequency is often brought up.

 

[stuu]

Somerton would bring Street and Glastonbury a lot closer to a railway, so on paper it has more merit than Langport. Unfortunately the only likely location for station isn't very good for access from outside the town though

 

[brad465]

It's an intriguing concept - I would be very doubtful of anything west of Taunton happening unless it was a turnback platform for the new developments at Norton Fitzwarren. Terminating Westbury will certainly cause problems, although it may not trigger additional infrastructure. The big issue with Westbury will be connecting into a London service.
Frome would almost certainly need to be upgraded, although it's probably less work than upgrading Taunton-Castle Cary signalling (which probably needs something, although it might be more limited than a wholesale renewal).

I believe Frome and the line as far as Langport are controlled under the same signal centre/panel, so a good time to reinstate Frome's second platform would be at the same time signalling from Taunton-Castle Cary is upgraded.

 

[zwk500]

I believe Frome and the line as far as Langport are controlled under the same signal centre/panel, so a good time to reinstate Frome's second platform would be at the same time signalling from Taunton-Castle Cary is upgraded.

Yes, but if your proposal is the one triggering the upgrade, you'll need more benefits to cover those costs. Unless you get fantastically lucky and the renewal decides to reinstate double track on the Frome line as part of it's own project.

 

[MarkyT]

Yes, but if your proposal is the one triggering the upgrade, you'll need more benefits to cover those costs. Unless you get fantastically lucky and the renewal decides to reinstate double track on the Frome line as part of it's own project.

A renewal could only do that if there was an identified and funded need for more capacity/flexibility/resilience. It would be expensive with a new bridge over the A362 at the London end and access arrangements for a second platform. Renewal budget money can be a powerful tool, especially where there's an old overcomplicated layout that has potential for simplification. If junction track and S&T renewal dates can be synchronised, then a final layout solution may be possible that is much better optimised for current service patterns while also making unit cost savings. However, the Exeter and Westbury resignalling projects of the mid-1980s took place in a period when Government was demanding major savings in the industry and station and junction layouts were to be cut back dramatically from the former mechanical incarnations, some would say oversimplified.

 

[zwk500]

A renewal could only do that if there was an identified and funded need for more capacity/flexibility/resilience. It would be expensive with a new bridge over the A362 at the London end and access arrangements for a second platform. Renewal budget money can be a powerful tool, especially where there's an old overcomplicated layout that has potential for simplification. If junction track and S&T renewal dates can be synchronised, then a final layout solution may be possible that is much better optimised for current service patterns while also making unit cost savings. However, the Exeter and Westbury resignalling projects of the mid-1980s took place in a period when Government was demanding major savings in the industry and station and junction layouts were to be cut back dramatically from the former mechanical incarnations, some would say oversimplified.

Indeed, hence the 'fantastically lucky' part of the comment.

The Weston and Frome loops being singled has certainly held back later developments, as long as other various trimmings where mothballing might have been a more practical way forwards in the South West.

 

[Gloster]

I am not absolutely certain as I don’t have that volume of Cooke’s diagram, but I think that the Frome North-Blatchbridge Junction singling dates from June 1976 and so long predates the resignalling.

I think that the limit of Westbury Panel’s control is (roughly) just east of Somerton Tunnel.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

As a new service, 2 stations would probably be fine, the bigger concern would be the size of the places each would serve - Langport and Somerton are both no more than 5k from the look of it, so unless you were planning to double the size of each (which I'd be sympathetic to, but suspect the Locals would be less pleased!), I don't see either really justifying themselves. And if both of those go, well you're not really adding much to anybody's travel options.

5k can work if there's a hinterland - our town has a population of 3k, but its role as a local railhead gives it 260k passengers a year.

Somerton has good road access from Glastonbury and Street, which add an extra 20k between them. As ever, I suspect half the challenge is getting a station built for an affordable cost.

 

[MarkyT]

I am not absolutely certain as I don’t have that volume of Cooke’s diagram, but I think that the Frome North-Blatchbridge Junction singling dates from June 1976 and so long predates the resignalling.

The two layouts shown here are informative: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S399.htm
I think the blurred date for the later one, already singled through the station, is 1970. Possibly acceptance lever working with continuous track circuiting between Frome North and Blatchbridge Jn, or tokenless block?

The signalling notice diagram for Westbury stage 2 is here: https://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/97/no 2 diagram.jpg

I think that the limit of Westbury Panel’s control is (roughly) just east of Somerton Tunnel.

The Sectional Appendix shows the change of control to Exeter at the tunnel.

 

[Gloster]

The two layouts shown here are informative: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S399.htm
I think the blurred date for the later one, already singled through the station, is 1970. Possibly acceptance lever working with continuous track circuiting between Frome North and Blatchbridge Jn, or tokenless block?

The signalling notice diagram for Westbury stage 2 is here: https://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/97/no 2 diagram.jpg

The Sectional Appendix shows the change of control to Exeter at the tunnel.

It was Acceptance Lever in the early 1980s, so probably had been since singling.

 

[30907]

The two layouts shown here are informative: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S399.htm
I think the blurred date for the later one, already singled through the station, is 1970.

I concur. I managed Yeovil PM-Westbury on a Southern Rover (technically off route) in summer 1971 and Frome was singled then.
On topic, the running time over the single section including the stop is 4min, so there isn't a capacity problem though timetabling might be difficult.