Bizarre morning on Thameslink (15/11)

[yorkie]

Thameslink have very clear policy that you can't buy on the train - Very unfair for the guard to allow that when most people would have been fined.

GTR trains between London and Brighton don't have Guards.

Ticket inspectors may issue Penalty Fares (which aren't actually fines), however this isn't guaranteed and this does involve paperwork which may be unwanted hassle for the inspector (or maybe they aren't an authorised collector for some reason) and it's also possible the inspector may be gathering information with a view to a prosecution if the offences continue, which would lead to a fine, if found guilty.

I wouldn't judge without understanding the full circumstances.

 

[43066]

What I *do* do is periodically grip an entire trains' railcards no matter how long it takes me and if I see someone trying to be cute, cover up the railcard lettering even though it shows up when I scan it etc then I ask them 100% of the time.

It’s interesting how staff all have different approaches to this kind of thing. As a driver, I don’t wish to interact with the public at all, and do my utmost to avoid it, to the point of not always wearing uniform, so when I’m asked “do you work here” I can plausibly say “nope” and scarper!

Guards/TMs tend to thrive on and get the people side of the job exactly right (hence often struggle with loneliness, if they eventually go driving).

As I was discussing with an ex BTP (now driver) colleague the other day, RPIs are the group who tend not to get this kind of thing right, perhaps because they thrive on conflict. As he recounted, he’d often be summoned to a minor ticketing incident, and the RPI would peacock up and become more aggressive towards the fare dodger because of the police presence.

That pathetic attitude was part of the reason he left the force and went train driving. His overall point was, at the end of the day, it’s hardly crime of the century to bunk a train fare, and there’s no need to give someone a dressing down (as RPIs seemed to enjoy) if you’re going to report them for prosecution anyway. And, quite frankly, how does catching someone out like that lead to any kind of job satisfaction?

There’s a reason why certain members of staff get assaulted, and sadly dealing with the nonsense stemming from that is why many (of few) BTP officers want to become train drivers.

 

[Horizon22]

That pathetic attitude was part of the reason he left the force and went train driving. His overall point was, at the end of the day, it’s hardly crime of the century to bunk a train fare, and there’s no need to give someone a dressing down (as RPIs seemed to enjoy) if you’re going to report them for prosecution anyway. And, quite frankly, how does catching someone out like that lead to any kind of job satisfaction?

There’s a reason why certain members of staff get assaulted, and sadly dealing with the nonsense stemming from that is why many (of few) BTP officers want to become train drivers.

It’s not the “crime of the century” no but there is a slippery slope of allowing minor anti-social behaviour and fare evasion go systemically unpunished for wider society as this emboldens fare evaders and of course the financial loss for an ever scrutinised railway budget.

The BTP should definitely be involved but with how stretched they are it’s not going to be a priority for one-off reports of fare evasion. Unfortunately certain passengers are getting used to no checks, barriers open, not paying (even when challenged) and threats of action from BTP being empty that it can become endemic so that needs to be stamped out as best possible.

But you are correct that whilst passengers often need to pass an “attitude test”, many staff also need to set the right tone and don’t get themselves into irrational conflicts, whilst still being firm as required.

 

[yorkie]

It’s not the “crime of the century” no but there is a slippery slope of allowing minor anti-social behaviour and fare evasion go systemically unpunished for wider society as this emboldens fare evaders and of course the financial loss for an ever scrutinised railway budget.

Agreed but I don't think @43066 was disagreeing with any of this; just arguing that the prosecution (or PF etc maybe) itself should be sufficient, with no need to try to humiliate or argue.

But you are correct that whilst passengers often need to pass an “attitude test”, many staff also need to set the right tone and don’t get themselves into irrational conflicts, whilst still being firm as required.

Yes I think we are unanimously agreed in this

In one of the many jobs I have experience of doing, there have been numerous times when I've handed out a consequence to someone, and it's far better to do so in a factual and calm way, than a manner that could be seen as gleeful or argumentative or mocking them or anything else that really isn't necessary.

It's wise for all customer facing staff to deploy conflict avoidance techniques. You don't want to risk winding someone up into attacking you. I don't think that adequate training is consistently in place in this area.

 

[mike57]

oh, this particular shoddy app needs a data connection or keeps throwing up ads/full screen disruption advice that isn't relevant

There is some truth in this. I used to get my tickets on the Transpennine app, mainly because I had signed up for Nectar points. Once TPE stopped offering Nectar points I binned it as it was tempremental to the point of being unusable at times and started using the Northern app. which seemed to be far more reliable and stable. I am not sure how they work behind the scenes, but as long as I download my ticket at time of purchase, i.e. while I still have a data connection, then its on my phone, and I can display it when required, even if there is no data connection, which in our area is probably a third of the time on local journeys. This was not the case with the TPE app, although it may have improved since I last used it.

The problem is, as @LowLevel alludes to, the scammers will be well aware of any failings will know how to play the system.

 

[Snow1964]

Thameslink need to be out in force everyday ticketless travel is rife

I do tend to wonder why too, about why they are not serious.

If you employ a ticket inspector at £40-50k (let's call it £60k including NI and pension and other staff costs), they work about 230 days per year, then cost is covered by 5-6 £50 penalty fares per day, less than one per hour.

Maybe safer to have them work in pairs or triples, but with number of station stops on Thameslink, could easily sweep a train, and get off, and join another train 3 times a hour. So even if working in 3s only got to issue one penalty per train per hour and cost is covered.

They really need to do more on train inspection to cover the only buy a ticket if see someone checking mob. This is new problem since online purchases and needs to be tackled.

 

[yorkie]

I do tend to wonder why too, about why they are not serious.

If you employ a ticket inspector at £40-50k (let's call it £60k including NI and pension and other staff costs), they work about 230 days per year, then cost is covered by 5-6 £50 penalty fares per day, less than one per hour

If issued correctly, which in the case of GTR and predecessors hasn't always happened, and if administrative costs are minimal.

Maybe safer to have them work in pairs or triples

Definitely, especially at certain times and on certain routes.

They really need to do more on train inspection

However overall I do agree there should be more checks

to cover the only buy a ticket if see someone checking mob. This is new problem since online purchases and needs to be tackled.

It may be a new problem, and the problems are different in a digital world of ticketing than hitherto, but overall making tickets available digitally does reduce ticketless travel.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I realise this is well intentioned but, with all due respect, I’d recommend leaving this kind of thing to the staff to deal with as they see fit. Most people who fare dodge know there are invariably no consequences to doing so, and won’t take kindly to being lectured.

There are numerous ways an “intervention” along these lines, however well meaning, could go badly for you, from her rounding on you and assaulting you, calling a few of her mates (or her dad) to meet the train to do it for her, or making some sort of accusation against you. So it’s simply best not to get involved.

I say that as a member of staff myself who makes a point of avoiding unnecessary conflict (and preferably any contact with the public at all). After a few years on the railway you realise there is no level of depravity the great British public aren’t capable of sinking beneath…

Sound advice. I’d never thought of those possibilities. She will have to take responsibility for her own choices.
I would like to think the GTR employee will have taken a note of the time of travel and her appearance, and flagged to RPIs his suspicions, but who knows?
Her behaviour suggests she has done this before.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

For what it's worth, l have noticed a difference in attitude across different companies.

Southern always seemed the most "can't be bothered" by a long distance, and some years ago l saw a member of staff "doing a deal for cash" with a foreign visitor who was inadvertently using a Gatwick Express ticket on a Southern train.
Staff with other companies that l have encountered (Chiltern & GWR) have in my opinion been much more diligent.
I am now retired, and the above comments are based on over 20 years travelling in the S of England.

As far as London is concerned, l would love to know how many "Child tickets" open barriers at stations in the City, such as Chancery Lane etc, where there are fewer children using them, say between 5 & 6 p.m. That would be interesting.

 

[Towers]

As I was discussing with an ex BTP (now driver) colleague the other day, RPIs are the group who tend not to get this kind of thing right, perhaps because they thrive on conflict. As he recounted, he’d often be summoned to a minor ticketing incident, and the RPI would peacock up and become more aggressive towards the fare dodger because of the police presence.

That pathetic attitude was part of the reason he left the force and went train driving. His overall point was, at the end of the day, it’s hardly crime of the century to bunk a train fare, and there’s no need to give someone a dressing down (as RPIs seemed to enjoy) if you’re going to report them for prosecution anyway. And, quite frankly, how does catching someone out like that lead to any kind of job satisfaction?

There’s a reason why certain members of staff get assaulted, and sadly dealing with the nonsense stemming from that is why many (of few) BTP officers want to become train drivers.

This; so very true!

I have trained ex-BTP colleagues who became fed up with earning less than the TOC staff who so frequently called upon them to resolve their conflict situations, and so joined a TOC themselves.

There is nothing that irks a BTP officer quite like being called out to a trivial ticket issue. The BTP have so much more to do than worry about revenue, the general understanding being that whilst they may provide targeted or general everyday support, it is for the TOCs to sort their revenue out through their own staffing arrangements. There remain to this day certain colleagues across the network (guards as well as revenue) who are on the phone to summon BTP on a regular basis. Sometimes of course their reasons may be justified, but those genuine occasions become lost amidst a sea of situations which ultimately boil down to poor handling and not being able to ‘let it go’ when that is clearly the right thing to do. A difficult situation to remedy, it would seem.

 

[Edsmith]

This; so very true!

I have trained ex-BTP colleagues who became fed up with earning less than the TOC staff who so frequently called upon them to resolve their conflict situations, and so joined a TOC themselves.

There is nothing that irks a BTP officer quite like being called out to a trivial ticket issue. The BTP have so much more to do than worry about revenue, the general understanding being that whilst they may provide targeted or general everyday support, it is for the TOCs to sort their revenue out through their own staffing arrangements. There remain to this day certain colleagues across the network (guards as well as revenue) who are on the phone to summon BTP on a regular basis. Sometimes of course their reasons may be justified, but those genuine occasions become lost amidst a sea of situations which ultimately boil down to poor handling and not being able to ‘let it go’ when that is clearly the right thing to do. A difficult situation to remedy, it would seem.

A BTP officer told me that, calls to sort out petty arguments between passengers and staff (not just RPI's) who have got a bit too full of themselves and this is why such calls are often a low priority.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Never seen Revenue on Thameslink during the weekends… What happens if someone buys a ticket as soon as the guard / inspector approaches ? Do they accept the ticket or refuse it ? How do you mange this situation and does the rail staff member see a time-stamp showing when the ticket was purchased ?

I could only hear the conversation in front of me (I have a professional reason to, in case they then need some assistance, and many of the revenue are familiar faces to me) and the ticket was scanned, then the railcard was asked for and then the revenue said that the ticket had been bought three minutes ago. Which was clearly long after the person was in the train.

 

[Edsmith]

What's the scam here? They bought tickets to Hassocks/ Preston Park to get through the barrier at Brighton, and they're hoping to travel all the way to London without seeing an inspector/ gateline?

That doesn't seem like a good bet to me?

Sounds like they were 'doughnuting', a ticket to one or two stations up the line to get through the gate at Brighton and then maybe another ticket for the London end? I've often travelled from London to Brighton with no on board ticket checks.

Thameslink need to be out in force everyday ticketless travel is rife

Easier said than done.

 

[TrainGeekUK]

Slightly off topic but the ”doubling up” I’ve seen at Brighton station seems to be a regular occurrence too…

So frustrating for the genuine fare paying customer seeing people get away with it at the gate line.

 

[rg177]

As I was discussing with an ex BTP (now driver) colleague the other day, RPIs are the group who tend not to get this kind of thing right, perhaps because they thrive on conflict. As he recounted, he’d often be summoned to a minor ticketing incident, and the RPI would peacock up and become more aggressive towards the fare dodger because of the police presence.

When I did a stint as an RPI - it was fascinating to see how different colleagues reacted in different situations. Usually, it was the ones who thrived on conflict and caused aggro that got everyone's backs up at work, too.

There was one who loved to scream 'call the police' after creating a situation that had no reason to go awry. Naturally, they'd never show up. I preferred to be a bit more calm/cunning with folk and let them trip over themselves rather than going in all guns blazing!

 

[ComUtoR]

...ticketless travel is rife

It really isn't

 

[Merle Haggard]

When I did a stint as an RPI - it was fascinating to see how different colleagues reacted in different situations. Usually, it was the ones who thrived on conflict and caused aggro that got everyone's backs up at work, too.

There was one who loved to scream 'call the police' after creating a situation that had no reason to go awry. Naturally, they'd never show up. I preferred to be a bit more calm/cunning with folk and let them trip over themselves rather than going in all guns blazing!

Perhaps over-simplifying things but in my experience conciliation always works better than confrontation to get the result you require.

People that think the best results are obtained by aggressive confrontation have perhaps never thought it through. If they're socialising and they encounter someone they find attractive and want to strike up a conversation which - confrontation or conciliation - would work better?

 

[LowLevel]

This; so very true!

I have trained ex-BTP colleagues who became fed up with earning less than the TOC staff who so frequently called upon them to resolve their conflict situations, and so joined a TOC themselves.

There is nothing that irks a BTP officer quite like being called out to a trivial ticket issue. The BTP have so much more to do than worry about revenue, the general understanding being that whilst they may provide targeted or general everyday support, it is for the TOCs to sort their revenue out through their own staffing arrangements. There remain to this day certain colleagues across the network (guards as well as revenue) who are on the phone to summon BTP on a regular basis. Sometimes of course their reasons may be justified, but those genuine occasions become lost amidst a sea of situations which ultimately boil down to poor handling and not being able to ‘let it go’ when that is clearly the right thing to do. A difficult situation to remedy, it would seem.

At the moment we're in the worst of all worlds really. BTP often get dragged in because nowadays when someone sits there and tells you to eff off, what are you going to do then the answer is often nothing except call the BTP who can drag said individual off the premises and spoil their day. Same applies with shoplifters and the like who act with impunity.

20 years ago the railway staff themselves would quite often cheerfully remove such individuals under their own steam, nowadays they'd be sacked and/or prosecuted because the right of a scrote not to be harmed in any way outweighs anyone else's right not to be afflicted by them.

There is a major problem in this country whereby there is no middle ground between doing nothing or dragging the police in with rubbish individuals, and when you do drag the police in, half the time they themselves are terrified of the consequences of acting.

Letting scum be scum because it's the path of least resistance is the path to madness.

 

[winks]

I have seen the “travel safe” officers literally drag a person off a train by his legs in the summer. This was quite shocking to watch (at east Croydon) and the officers were female.

But don’t see many of them.

There seems to be a huge problem inwards into Brighton on the weekends where groups of lads barge through the barriers on-mass, and the travel safe officers and other rail staff standby and watch.

 

[Bikeman78]

What's the scam here? They bought tickets to Hassocks/ Preston Park to get through the barrier at Brighton, and they're hoping to travel all the way to London without seeing an inspector/ gateline?

That doesn't seem like a good bet to me?

I cannot recall having my ticket checked on Thameslink in the past five years. West Anglia is somewhat better. Maybe 10 checks over two years. Still only once every 1200 miles.

 

[modernrail]

I have never done the buy the ticket on the app on the train thing until the last two years or so. During that time things have become so unpredictable with last minute cancellations, changes etc etc that I have taken to doing it quite a lot. For instance buying a full price southern ticket on the Brighton Line only to be shoved into a late running stuffed full Thameslink service no longer appeals. Nor does buying a ticket only to find the service has deteriorated to the extent there is no point travelling. I like my butt on the seat with a cast iron guarantee from the driver they are not going to skip my stop or stop short of my destination before I think of paying for the increasingly frequent total lack of pleasure.

As for the first class sections - lots of them are not, lots of them are permanently declassified but at one end and lots of them are temporarily declassified. Lots of them are also not first class - they are standard class with a subtle ‘1’ somewhere that inspectors seem to think is more obvious than Nelson’s column. As the education system has not provided me with a Masters in answering the philosophical question, when is first class actually first class - I don’t care any more. I might start caring once somebody had worked out how to run a train service fit fit a vaguely just about modern country.

I am sure there are a few seasoned scammers out there. I suspect there are a growing number of non-seasoned scammers who increasingly think the railway can whistle it if thinks it gets to provide a shocking service with massive unpredictability and get away with it.

 

[Edsmith]

At the moment we're in the worst of all worlds really. BTP often get dragged in because nowadays when someone sits there and tells you to eff off, what are you going to do then the answer is often nothing except call the BTP who can drag said individual off the premises and spoil their day. Same applies with shoplifters and the like who act with impunity.

20 years ago the railway staff themselves would quite often cheerfully remove such individuals under their own steam, nowadays they'd be sacked and/or prosecuted because the right of a scrote not to be harmed in any way outweighs anyone else's right not to be afflicted by them.

There is a major problem in this country whereby there is no middle ground between doing nothing or dragging the police in with rubbish individuals, and when you do drag the police in, half the time they themselves are terrified of the consequences of acting.

Letting scum be scum because it's the path of least resistance is the path to madness.

I can't recall ever seeing railway staff trying to physically remove somebody and even police officers are often reluctant to use force nowadays and the scrotes know that. There's a general lack of respect for any form of authority nowadays.

 

[kacper]

I cannot recall having my ticket checked on Thameslink in the past five years. West Anglia is somewhat better. Maybe 10 checks over two years. Still only once every 1200 miles.

I see checks on West Anglia quite frequently, especially between Cheshunt - Broxbourne

 

[winks]

I have never done the buy the ticket on the app on the train thing until the last two years or so. During that time things have become so unpredictable with last minute cancellations, changes etc etc that I have taken to doing it quite a lot. For instance buying a full price southern ticket on the Brighton Line only to be shoved into a late running stuffed full Thameslink service no longer appeals. Nor does buying a ticket only to find the service has deteriorated to the extent there is no point travelling. I like my butt on the seat with a cast iron guarantee from the driver they are not going to skip my stop or stop short of my destination before I think of paying for the increasingly frequent total lack of pleasure.

As for the first class sections - lots of them are not, lots of them are permanently declassified but at one end and lots of them are temporarily declassified. Lots of them are also not first class - they are standard class with a subtle ‘1’ somewhere that inspectors seem to think is more obvious than Nelson’s column. As the education system has not provided me with a Masters in answering the philosophical question, when is first class actually first class - I don’t care any more. I might start caring once somebody had worked out how to run a train service fit fit a vaguely just about modern country.

I am sure there are a few seasoned scammers out there. I suspect there are a growing number of non-seasoned scammers who increasingly think the railway can whistle it if thinks it gets to provide a shocking service with massive unpredictability and get away with it.

Couldn’t agree more with this.

On the rare occasion you see an OBS they’re not interested whether you have a thameslink only ticket or Southern. GX is slightly different but not if it stops at Haywards Heath.

Your point is spot on though.

 

[yorkie]

On the rare occasion you see an OBS they’re not interested whether you have a thameslink only ticket or Southern.

Good to hear; to charge people for a new, excess or penalty fare in such circumstances would be unlawful. Incidentally, if anyone ever is charged in such circumstances, please keep all paperwork and contact me.

 

[Alfie1014]

Interesting observation on a peak hour train from Liverpool Street last week. The train is fast from Stratford to Chelmsford then stations on to Colchester. The train arrived at Chelmsford and 2 RPIs get on and as soon as the wheels start rolling they start checking tickets. One of them checks the e-ticket of a pax near me and then he states the time is now 18:18 and this ticket was purchased at 18:16, you didn’t board at Chelmsford so must have boarded at LST or SRA therefore I’m issuing a penalty fare for boarding the train without a valid ticket. All done very professionally.

 

[Kite159]

I see checks on West Anglia quite frequently, especially between Cheshunt - Broxbourne

Makes sense as stations beyond Broxbourne are hit & miss with barriers (Harlow Town & Bishop Stortland from memory) and Cheshunt has an open side entrance onto the GA London bound platform due to the bridge not having lifts (so very much like Rainham in Kent where all those pay when challenged will use to bypass the barriers).

Although I suspect the RPIs dislike the very narrow aisles on the new GA trains

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It really isn't

well my station is ungated Oyster and when a Tlk disgorges its passengers and less than half tap out thats a good indicator to me. Yes of course some will still be on season tickets and day tickets but even if its only 10% is that an acceptable level of fare evasion today?

 

[Bikeman78]

I see checks on West Anglia quite frequently, especially between Cheshunt - Broxbourne

Maybe they check the stopping trains more than the Cambridge and Stansted trains? In my experience it was usually the same two people. Perhaps they have recruited more recently.

 

[Ediswan]

Makes sense as stations beyond Broxbourne are hit & miss with barriers (Harlow Town & Bishop Stortland from memory) and Cheshunt has an open side entrance onto the GA London bound platform due to the bridge not having lifts (so very much like Rainham in Kent where all those pay when challenged will use to bypass the barriers).

Also, Oyster/contactless is vaid on some trains beyond Broxbourne (Hertford East), but not others. Checking tickets prior to Broxbourne provides the opportunity for a graceful resolution when a passenger needs an additional ticket to proceed further.