Blackpool Heritage Tram Operations Suspended

[Skymonster]

The more I think about it the more I am dismayed, bitter and annoyed by the out-of-the-blue announcement:

• Dismayed - that the public heritage tram operation along the Blackpool prom is ending. Don’t be fooled, I firmly believe its over. I quote: “By reassessing their operation, we aim to explore new ways to honour Blackpool’s rich transport heritage…”. I also have little hope that Rigby Road will become the centre of heritage tram excellence that a few people clearly wanted it to be: without any heritage income where is the funding for that going to come from - and as I know from my own experience static trams are no where near as big a draw as operational vehicles.
• Bitter - having visited Blackpool on a number of occasions over the last couple of years, I have spent money on regular heritage trips, special and one-off tram tours, depot visits, and all sorts of merchandise. And I have donated additional money. It now seems that my money (along with that from plenty of others) has gone into a black hole.
• Annoyed - that the end has come completely so abruptly, and without Blackpool Transport allowing enthusiasts a final nostalgic opportunity to ride those wonderful vehicles in their native environment. Clearly the heritage trams can actually still be operated because the BLS tour is going ahead, so why not a few trips for other fans?

New, debilitating safety rules and procedures extremely rarely just emerge overnight - they are almost always promulgated and are thus known about months or even years in advance. It gives operators time to plan, adjust, and modify or mitigate as necessary. So I presume either something untoward has happened in the last few days, or Blackpool Transport has been negligent in addressing changes that have to be implemented, ignorring the impact of them on the heritage operation until it is effectively too late.

On the other hand I accept that there could be extenuating circumstances that demand an immediate suspension of services - indeed that may be the most likely explanation, given that a week ago additional pre-Christmas services from North Station using the Western Train were being proposed.

Blackpool Transport has been far from transparent in its latest statement - similarly to how it has acted on several occasions previously when it provided updates on the heritage operation. If there are genuine reasons why the operation of heritage trams has to cease so abruptly (i.e. overnight), then it could do itself a big favour and maybe even garner some sympathy within the tram enthusiast community by explaining what they are.

For the future, Blackpool Transport will do doubt go through the motions as far as securing the future of heritage is concerned. Whether it will be a sincere effort is open to debate. But without income any funding will likely need to come from within or from the lottery. I supect that in the fullness of time it will be announced that its all too difficult and heritage trams in Blackpool will wither and die.

 

[signed]

Surely the exact reasoning is FOIA-included? Or it is a commercial decision that can't be FOIA'd?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Very bad news. The abrupt nature of the decision does suggest an accident but there is nothing in the press. Has the 'management' changed, or has Blackpool Council sent a directive that 'economies must be found' for the bus and tram operation as a whole? The staycation boom is over, it has been a very poor summer / autumn weather wise and the rubbish timetable with the opening of North Station Extension must have depressed passenger numbers and revenue. Add to that you have the increasing cost of maintaining 80/90 yo tramcars for top-line work whilst the plans for Rigby Road Depot seemed to have been chopped and changed several times which can not have helped. Hopefully this is just a blip, but it does sound rather ominous.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One thing that was always in Blackpool's favour for very many years was that it had a long coastal tramway system still operational as a mode of public transport that was something of a novelty and a tourist attraction to visitors to the resort, whose own home area tramway systems had long ceased functioning. Now there are a number of modern new tramway networks in a number of very large conurbation areas.

 

[Leyland Bus]

It's quite possible that the Brady family have finally put a claim in...

 

[Towers]

In

One thing that was always in Blackpool's favour for very many years was that it had a long coastal tramway system still operational as a mode of public transport that was something of a novelty and a tourist attraction to visitors to the resort, whose own home area tramway systems had long ceased functioning. Now there are a number of modern new tramway networks in a number of very large conurbation areas.

Of course, the heritage operation very much retained a heavy dose of that novelty. Removing it certainly leaves the rather lacklustre regular service as pretty unremarkable, not to mention poorly timetabled and borderline unusable at busy times. It’s certainly true that nobody will be visiting Blackpool just to experience that!

 

[Skymonster]

Obviously I cannot affirm the veracity of the following comment, but I came across this in one of the many Facebook topics on the subject a while ago: “Would this have anything to do with the fact that the whole fleet was inspected a few days ago and condemned?”

 

[Krokodil]

The possibility that a surprise inspection had found issues was a pretty likely candidate in my mind.

 

[Towers]

Obviously I cannot affirm the veracity of the following comment, but I came across this in one of the many Facebook topics on the subject a while ago: “Would this have anything to do with the fact that the whole fleet was inspected a few days ago and condemned?”

By who/“condemned” for what reason, though?

 

[david1212]

I have not been to Blackpool since the 130th Weekend of 2015. Generally very noticeable that the town was less busy than 10+ years before. This must be the longest period I have not been to Blackpool at all. For the 125th Anniversary of the Blackpool & Fleetwood Tramway last year there was no major event. Unless there is another major event sadly for a combination of reasons I have little incentive to visit again. From all I have seen on various website sources Fleetwood Tram Sunday is very different too. I can't recall if I have been since 1998, if so it would not be after 2006.

To this issue two thoughts -
First is active heritage fleet based at Starr Gate or still using some buildings in Rigby Road requiring access along Lytham Road then Hopton Road ?

Second I recall there is some involvement by Fylde Transport Trust ( previously known as Lancastrian Transport Trust ) with the Heritage fleet. Is this in any way related to the suspension? Their website has not been updated for some time.

 

[tram21]

By who/“condemned” for what reason, though?

The ORR I would imagine.

Obviously I cannot affirm the veracity of the following comment, but I came across this in one of the many Facebook topics on the subject a while ago: “Would this have anything to do with the fact that the whole fleet was inspected a few days ago and condemned?”

Where did you find this?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

By who/“condemned” for what reason, though?

Is there any method of officially ascertaining the exact ruling that was made?

 

[signed]

Is there any method of officially ascertaining the exact ruling that was made?

FOIA? Either the ORR or Blackpool Transport.

 

[Tramfan]

I have not been to Blackpool since the 130th Weekend of 2015. Generally very noticeable that the town was less busy than 10+ years before. This must be the longest period I have not been to Blackpool at all. For the 125th Anniversary of the Blackpool & Fleetwood Tramway last year there was no major event. Unless there is another major event sadly for a combination of reasons I have little incentive to visit again. From all I have seen on various website sources Fleetwood Tram Sunday is very different too. I can't recall if I have been since 1998, if so it would not be after 2006.

To this issue two thoughts -
First is active heritage fleet based at Starr Gate or still using some buildings in Rigby Road requiring access along Lytham Road then Hopton Road ?

Second I recall there is some involvement by Fylde Transport Trust ( previously known as Lancastrian Transport Trust ) with the Heritage fleet. Is this in any way related to the suspension? Their website has not been updated for some time.

The heritage fleet is still based at Rigby Road, although I believe this year (due to issues with the roof at Rigby Road), they have been stabling the active heritage trams at Starr Gate, which has resulted in a bit of a scaled back operation this year

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

FOIA? Either the ORR or Blackpool Transport.

Whatever, let us be aware of the actual state of play, rather than indulge in speculation.

 

[Harpo]

If ORR had caused the cessation, it would have been done through an improvement notice or prohibition order. Either would be in the public domain.

 

[bluegoblin7]

There is often a lag between ORR notices being issued to the relevant operator(s) and being uploaded to the website. I have no inside knowledge of this either way, but I do know that the ORR have been casting a very keen eye on tramway operations for a few years now.

I do think that posters here need a heavy dose of reality though: the heritage operation was always above and beyond what was expected in November 2011, and many within the industry - including myself - have felt it was an overreach that struggled to have long term sustainability.

I don’t think this is the end of heritage trams in Blackpool - none of the suggested hoops are insurmountable - but I would fully expect a more targeted, lean and business-focussed operation to come out the other side.

 

[Towers]

There is often a lag between ORR notices being issued to the relevant operator(s) and being uploaded to the website. I have no inside knowledge of this either way, but I do know that the ORR have been casting a very keen eye on tramway operations for a few years now.

I do think that posters here need a heavy dose of reality though: the heritage operation was always above and beyond what was expected in November 2011, and many within the industry - including myself - have felt it was an overreach that struggled to have long term sustainability.

I don’t think this is the end of heritage trams in Blackpool - none of the suggested hoops are insurmountable - but I would fully expect a more targeted, lean and business-focussed operation to come out the other side.

As I alluded to previously, it is certainly apparent that the operation has never been overly professional, and could and should have reached a greater potential. Rigby Road has become a bit of a hub for the various owners and organisations who have taken on assorted former Blackpool cars, and presumably if/when the grand plans for museum development do come to fruition, there would need to be a significant clear out of much of the long-redundant stock within. It was heart warming to have seen such a degree of commitment to the ongoing preservation of this amazing aspect of the nation’s transport history. If indeed the operation does become more “lean and business-focussed” then that can only be a good thing for the longer term, and I very much hope that plans for the town to have a proper, permanent venue to celebrate the tramway’s history are still realised as part of that. Indeed, even if the trams can never run again in the town, having them presented in a museum at Rigby Road would be better than nothing. Cars could still be shipped off to other venues for periods of time in traffic, and the multitude of skills and crafts that the organisation has the priviledge of being a custodian of could still be put to use in a functioning workshop. There is a healthy, albeit niche, interest in trams in the UK, and there is no reason why Blackpool cannot continue to play a central role in its future. Low-loadering tramcars around is far from cheap, but it seems to be a fairly regular event thus far.

As for a “heavy dose of reality”, that may or may not be due, but delivering it in the form of an unexpected total cessation, along with accompanying not-at-all-promising sounding statement regarding the future, just in time to spoil Christmas for the multitude of volunteers who have kept this arm of an otherwise commercial operation going for all these years; well that just stinks a bit, doesn’t it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Crich in Derbyshire is the home of the National Tramway Museum, with over 80 assorted trams, that is centrally placed in England for tram heritage devotees to visit, with the added incentive that the heritage trams there do not have to take their place upon a fully functioning public transport network.

Let us all be honest and admit that the tramway system at Blackpool is only another form of the local public transport, just as is the case in Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, the West Midlands and Croydon, but none of those areas seem to feel the need to run outdated trams on their more modern tram networks.

 

[Harpo]

Let us all be honest and admit that the tramway system at Blackpool is only another form of public transport

Like Flying Scotsman, Routemasters, Concorde etc?

 

[bramling]

Crich in Derbyshire is the home of the National Tramway Museum, with over 80 assorted trams, that is centrally placed in England for tram heritage devotees to visit, with the added incentive that the heritage trams there do not have to take their place upon a fully functioning public transport network.

Let us all be honest and admit that the tramway system at Blackpool is only another form of public transport, just as is the case in Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, the West Midlands and Croydon.

I’d say the trams are part of the experience of going to Blackpool. Let’s be honest, there isn’t that much else there besides the tower and a run-down amusement park.

All the other light-rail systems described are mass transit systems intended to move large numbers of people around the respective cities, whereas as a transport system Blackpool tramway offers little that couldn’t be provided by buses.

If we want to advocate taking away something that is part of the very fabric of Blackpool, it doesn’t leave much. Indeed it’s already one of the most deprived places in the country.

I wonder if part of the issue is that many of the older hands who have been associated with operating the heritage trams, largely off the back of when the old trams were the core service, have now retired, leaving a shortage of experience.

 

[Towers]

Yo

Crich in Derbyshire is the home of the National Tramway Museum, with over 80 assorted trams, that is centrally placed in England for tram heritage devotees to visit, with the added incentive that the heritage trams there do not have to take their place upon a fully functioning public transport network.

Let us all be honest and admit that the tramway system at Blackpool is only another form of the local public transport, just as is the case in Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, the West Midlands and Croydon, but none of those areas seem to feel the need to run outdated trams on their more modern tram networks.

You seem not to be a fan; that’s fair enough but there are plenty of others who very much value the contribution that Blackpool’s heritage operation makes to preserving the social and cultural history of the town, and Britain’s wider transport history. Trams running on a ‘fully functioning public transport network’ is a significant added appeal, for the same reason heritage railway operators run mainline trips on a regular basis.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You seem not to be a fan; that’s fair enough but there are plenty of others who very much value the contribution that Blackpool’s heritage operarions makes to preserving the social and cultural history of the town. Clearly, trams running on a ‘fully functioning public transport network’ is a significant added appeal, for the same reason heritage railway operators run mainline trips on a regular basis.

Would you say that all the Blackpool heritage trams have been passed as being in good order to run on the tram network and have all passed their last full examinations? If so, who was it who made the decision that began the subject of this particular thread which has led to this thread discussion. What has to be remembered is that the decision was taken to bring in new trams in the resort for public transport usage and the construction of the connecting link to Blackpool North railway station.

In answer to your query about me not being a fan, I will respond by saying at the age of 79, I have ridden on the trams in Blackpool for as long or even longer than many contributors to this thread, as well as making numerous visits to te National Tram Museum at Crich and many journeys on the Great Orme Tramway over the years.

 

[Krokodil]

Let us all be honest and admit that the tramway system at Blackpool is only another form of the local public transport, just as is the case in Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, the West Midlands and Croydon, but none of those areas seem to feel the need to run outdated trams on their more modern tram networks.

None of the examples you list have any heritage, they were all new systems constructed from scratch with no link to anything that came before. By contrast cities like Vienna, Budapest, Lisbon, Bern, Brussels, and of course San Francisco all run their old equipment either occasionally or regularly.

 

[Towers]

Would you say that all the Blackpool heritage trams have been passed as being in good order to run on the tram network and have all passed their last full examinations? If so, who was it who made the decision that began the subject of this particular thread which has led to this thread discussion. What has to be remembered is that the decision was taken to bring in new trams in the resort for public transport usage and the construction of the connecting link to Blackpool North railway station.

In answer to your query about me not being a fan, I will respond by saying at the age of 79, I have ridden on the trams in Blackpool for as long or even longer than many contributors to this thread, as well as making numerous visits to te National Tram Museum at Crich and many journeys on the Great Orme Tramway over the years.

The fitness to run of the fleet is a rather different matter to the concept of the heritage operation. I find it rather difficult to believe that the entire fleet of trams have all simultaneously failed a routine inspection, or that some sudden, hitherto unknown inspection has taken place for the very first time and the whole lot of them are deathtraps. Many of those cars have been the subject of lengthy and extensive overhauls in recent years, and ongoing maintenance is taken seriously - for example car 715 was withdrawn from service owing to needing a new underframe. I don’t think this is a cowboy operation. And if some sudden ‘standard’ has been imposed overnight which renders them lethal after having been on the rails quite happily for the past 90 years or so, then someone needs a word with themselves frankly.

I don’t know if any of those scenarios are true - do you? But if any of them were the case, Blackpool Transport would have done themselves a favour by saying so rather than issuing an opaque statement which makes it sound like they just can’t be bothered with it all any more.

As for your years, you’ve been riding the trams for considerably longer than I have sir, and I can only imagine the no doubt wonderful memories you must have of them through the generations - I hope we can agree that a ‘proper’ tram along the prom, in normal service with a full load of merry holidaymakers, was something very special indeed. I cherish those memories,l rather deeply, as I’m sure do you too. Happy times indeed

 

[Harvey B]

I don’t think this is the end of heritage trams in Blackpool - none of the suggested hoops are insurmountable - but I would fully expect a more targeted, lean and business-focussed operation to come out the other side.

I really hope you're right and I really hope this isn't the total end of Blackpools Heritage Trams altogether.

By the way. What do you mean by a "More Targeted, lean and Business-focussed Operation"?

Would that entail the Heritage Trams are running a small fleet of about 6 or 7 Trams (like they've done with this year)?

 

[Towers]

I really hope you're right and I really hope this isn't the total end of Blackpools Heritage Trams altogether.

By the way. What do you mean by a "More Targeted, lean and Business-focussed Operation"?

Would that entail the Heritage Trams are running a small fleet of about 6 or 7 Trams (like they've done with this year)?

Hopefully it would entail a far more widely publicised operation, appealing to a broader audience and ultimately raising more money.

A smaller fleet would likely be inevitable; 700 and/or 717 would be obvious, presumably Bolton 66 would remain and possibly an illuminated car - the Western Train would be perhaps the best choice, as it’s serviceable and offers good capacity, although of course it takes up a fair bit of depot space. That would probably be sufficient, perhaps you could argue for a Brush car amongst the ranks and personally I think Princess Alice very much warrants returning to traffic as a valuable asset for the summer season, but ‘mission creep’ would be an easy pitfall here and before long you’d end up back where you started. As much as I value them on a personal level, “modern” stuff like the Centenary cars and Millennium Balloon rebuilds don’t really have the wider appeal that would be needed to draw people onto an “old tram”, and I can’t see them having a place in any slimmed down operational fleet, sadly.

But of course this is mere speculation, time will tell.

 

[eldomtom2]

Let us all be honest and admit that the tramway system at Blackpool is only another form of the local public transport, just as is the case in Edinburgh, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, the West Midlands and Croydon, but none of those areas seem to feel the need to run outdated trams on their more modern tram networks.

Worldwide there are a lot of tram systems that have heritage operations, though.

 

[Harvey B]

Worldwide there are a lot of tram systems that have heritage operations, though.

San francisco is the most notable, but many places in europe do run both Heritage and modern "Light Rail" Trams on the same system. There's even oone notable example in Europe (Specifically in Darmstadt, Germany) that runs an entire Steam Train on an active Tram line

So while Blackpool wasn't the only place in the world to run both Light Rail and Heritage Trams on the same system, It certainly was the only one of it's kind in the UK and therefore had a USP compared to every other Tramline in the UK.

It's an Insult that the Council don't even care about preserving them anymore, not even a small fleet of a handful of Trams

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So while Blackpool wasn't the only place in the world to run both Light Rail and Heritage Trams on the same system, It certainly was the only one of it's kind in the UK and therefore had a USP compared to every other Tramline in the UK.

It's an Insult that the Council don't even care about preserving them anymore, not even a small fleet of a handful of Trams

Are there not more pressing items that the council need to attend to in Blackpool noting what they have to budget for?