Blackpool - Manchester Electrification

[driver_m]

Be interesting to see how the station is, when our extra services start from Blackpool. I presume Northern will oversee dispatch and if the passengers are cattled in when departing, and generally barked at when arriving on the train, in the way people describe the treatment dished out to other TOC's passengers, then it's not going to go down well on social media, particularly if VT get the blame for the treatment.

 

[DJH1971]

Thanks for that. I am able to run the videos at double speed , so the run is very impressive!
one thing I noticed about BPN. The canopies over the platforms have not been extended. Unfortunately it does rain in Blackpool and the wind can blow a bit coming off the sea. No doubt its all done to cost; such is life !!!

Great to see it fully completed.

Just a case of switching on the juice and putting on a test train, which I have heard earlier in the forums will be a Pendolino and not Mentor.

 

[LDECRexile]

Gralistair has continued to make the most of his visit from across the pond.

He's sent another batch which I've added to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651259517065

and added to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Gralistair.

 

[59CosG95]

Gralistair has continued to make the most of his visit from across the pond.

He's sent another batch which I've added to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651259517065

and added to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Gralistair.

Agreed - top notch work capturing the winding up of works on the Blackpool Branch. Hats off to you, @GRALISTAIR!

 

[LDECRexile]

Given this..

Isn't posting this .. [switch-on date confirmed by an authoritative Orangeman]

On a publicly accessible forum, close to aiding and abetting. Much as I, along with everyone on here, very much appreciate the updates and detail that is available, giving the less honest members of the public knowledge of when they are able to thieve without killing themselves, may not be the best idea.

Posters such as that shown in photo A100i UCLAN in this above set from Gralistair had already been put up all over the place when my informant confirmed the switch-on date. S/he was saying "yes, it really will" not "pssst, here's a bit of insider gen", which, as you say, would have been careless at best.

 

[deltic08]

Obviously if a Pendo is to do the testing the electricity already has to be on so the test run will be post 6th May.

 

[WatcherZero]

Didn't they do that with Chat Moss as well, stress tested it with Pendolino first before doing fine tuning.

 

[DJH1971]

Didn't they do that with Chat Moss as well, stress tested it with Pendolino first before doing fine tuning.

They did

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Did a run to K and W tonight. Lift shaft while not complete certainly looks close to completion from what I could see. Cherry pickers in the vicinity ready for the juice on Sunday 9.00 pm

I sent photos to Dave

 

[LDECRexile]

...and here they are!

In Graham's album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651259517065

and in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Graham.

 

[59CosG95]

I spotted on photo no. A104q that the lampposts aren't up over the footbridge yet - that must be one of the last things to do at KW besides turning the juice on. Surprised that the TTCs & single uprights haven't had any "punk collars" (anti-climb spikes) fastened on yet.

 

[superkev]

Thank you all for the explanation of stovepipe.
I think the planners have been very conservative with linespeeds between Blackpool and Preston when linespeed between Manchester and Preston will be 90mph. Electric trains can accelerate one mph per second so after one minute are travelling 60mph. Switches at Blackpool station throat appear to 50 mph from the new cab video so trains can leave on max power and easily accelerate to 90mph before slowing for Poulton regardless of level crossings. There are level crossings on 100mph+lines so what is different about this one?
I was told by experts looking at Ripon-Harrogate reinstatement that to prepare for 90mph linespeed was relatively easy but for 100mph was more difficult and much more costly. Even through Kirkham the curvature is easy and Salwick in one direction.
When Pacers are replaced and electrics replace 156s the slowest trains will be 90mph 158s on the Blackpool-Yorks. Maybe increased to 90mph then.

I understand the Preston Blackpool line speed is unchanged at 75mph. What happened to the Japanese doctrine of continuous improvement.
K

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm going away this morning, returning on Sunday evening.

Please send photos as usual and I'll process them when I get back.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I understand the Preston Blackpool line speed is unchanged at 75mph. What happened to the Japanese doctrine of continuous improvement.
K

It probably disappeared into the Farnworth Tunnel overrun or some other NR black hole.
And to think NR actually mentioned 125mph at one point.
A modest line speed increase would have been appropriate and affordable.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It probably disappeared into the Farnworth Tunnel overrun or some other NR black hole.
And to think NR actually mentioned 125mph at one point.
A modest line speed increase would have been appropriate and affordable.

They mentioned it, started designing it, realised it would be horrifically expensive and stopped designing it.

 

[The_Engineer]

I understand the Preston Blackpool line speed is unchanged at 75mph.

That's because most of the plain-line track has not been renewed. You can see that from the last video. Keeping costs down, I am sure.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

And to think NR actually mentioned 125mph at one point.
A modest line speed increase would have been appropriate and affordable.

To defend NR, they never proposed 125mph, that was D(a)fT's question - The Northern Hub Programme was asked to examine 125 elsewhere too and got some stupendous estimates in response (raising 20 to 125 through Bolton?!?).

As others have noted, the journey time improvements examined earlier failed to get a business case so weren't progressed; there will be a minute or so gained as a result of using electric units. Bear in mind that Manchester to Preston is only going to deliver 3 to 4 minutes of benefits for the very narrow case of a Bolton-only EMU.

 

[Grumpy]

So we’ve shut the line down for months messing passengers around and forcing them to change onto buses and spent countless millions. The end result is that not only have we a 75 mph(in parts ) line ( my impression of the parallel M55 is that most cars are travelling faster than this) and the same uncovered platforms at Blackpool, but the super new post-electrification service discontinues the through trains from East Lancashire and West Yorkshire to Blackpool. Is this a shambles or have I misunderstood?

 

[superkev]

So we’ve shut the line down for months messing passengers around and forcing them to change onto buses and spent countless millions. The end result is that not only have we a 75 mph(in parts ) line ( my impression of the parallel M55 is that most cars are travelling faster than this) and the same uncovered platforms at Blackpool, but the super new post-electrification service discontinues the through trains from East Lancashire and West Yorkshire to Blackpool. Is this a shambles or have I misunderstood?

My thoughts entirely.
K

 

[AM9]

Apart from the benefit of having an electrified railway from Manchester to Blackpool, allowing replacment of pacers and sprinters, was there a specific promise of shorter journey times* that would require a far greater increase in linespeed.
As has been explained here, the most cost effective way to increase end to end speeds is to not go slow and improve the slowest bits. Increasing maximum linespeeds is a very expensive way to get very little improvement. Normal passengers only notice the actual journey time.

* a genuine part of the DfT's project deliverables, - i.e. not a bit of upselling by local politicians or fanciful local newspaper headlines to sell copy.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Is that what you think normal people do, read through the DfT's project deliverables? Or do you think they think 'I've had to catch a bus for 6 months and the end result is a 1 minute quicker journey'?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Is that what you think normal people do, read through the DfT's project deliverables? Or do you think they think 'I've had to catch a bus for 6 months and the end result is a 1 minute quicker journey'?

The end result is a railway that is somewhat cleaner (or greener if you want the spun version) and quieter for passengers which will also be cheaper to operate. Electrification schemes are nearly always progressed on the basis that the capital cost will be recouped over time by those reduced running costs. That benefit may well accrue mostly to government but passengers will at least be less prone to the delights of diesel fumes wafting around the stations (and sometime inside the trains too). As usual for rail projects it is necessary to see the big picture over the long term to understand the purpose. Many passengers and most politicians seem incapable of doing this and the current minister has joined that club by cutting back the completion of GWEP for the sake of short term budgetary gain.

 

[AM9]

Is that what you think normal people do, read through the DfT's project deliverables? Or do you think they think 'I've had to catch a bus for 6 months and the end result is a 1 minute quicker journey'?

So you can't/won't answer that question about what was said by officialdom about the scope of the project. This is a rail specific forum so those claiming that the scheme has fallen short of what was promised shpould know the answer. Having seen acres of posts about how terrible pacers and sprinters are, their unreliability, the pollution and noise that they create for anybody nearby, and the dire shortage of DMUs in the north, an electrified line on quite a large scale will be seen as quite an improvement. Those who previously had to put up with the services of the day won't have any problems seeing the improvements. Come back in a year, and providing the teething problems aren't that significant, those complaining about having to use buses during the works will just be getting on with their lives.

 

[B&I]

So you can't/won't answer that question about what was said by officialdom about the scope of the project. This is a rail specific forum so those claiming that the scheme has fallen short of what was promised shpould know the answer. Having seen acres of posts about how terrible pacers and sprinters are, their unreliability, the pollution and noise that they create for anybody nearby, and the dire shortage of DMUs in the north, an electrified line on quite a large scale will be seen as quite an improvement. Those who previously had to put up with the services of the day won't have any problems seeing the improvements. Come back in a year, and providing the teething problems aren't that significant, those complaining about having to use buses during the works will just be getting on with their lives.

Assuming there is anyone to drive these new trains

 

[superkev]

Is that what you think normal people do, read through the DfT's project deliverables? Or do you think they think 'I've had to catch a bus for 6 months and the end result is a 1 minute quicker journey'?

Is a 1 minute improvement all that's been achieved?
So what have we got for all that money.
Electrification a good thing.
Straight instead of curved but still uncovered platforms.
New signalling and pointwork a good thing.
Lifts at intermediate stations.
As reported above a 1 min cut in journey time.
Hmmm
K

 

[Grumpy]

1 Minute cut in journey time?
If you're travelling from West Yorkshire to Blackpool the journey time is increased by approx. 30 minutes as a result of the through trains being cut. What does anyone think that will do to passenger numbers. As for criticising Sprinters, most passengers would prefer a through journey in a 158 to having to change to a geriatric 319. You could have replaced Pacers much more cheaply.
You can see why Grayling thinks electrification is a waste of money

 

[AMD]

but the super new post-electrification service discontinues the through trains from East Lancashire and West Yorkshire to Blackpool

This is temporary until the December TT change, the idea being that electrics operate the majority of services from Preston to free up a unit or two to go elsewhere, because of the delay to the Bolton section.

Straight instead of curved but still uncovered platforms.

Hahaha, they're still a bit curved to the extent that we are using OFF indicators to prevent cross reading of signals.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So you can't/won't answer that question about what was said by officialdom about the scope of the project. This is a rail specific forum so those claiming that the scheme has fallen short of what was promised shpould know the answer. Having seen acres of posts about how terrible pacers and sprinters are, their unreliability, the pollution and noise that they create for anybody nearby, and the dire shortage of DMUs in the north, an electrified line on quite a large scale will be seen as quite an improvement. Those who previously had to put up with the services of the day won't have any problems seeing the improvements. Come back in a year, and providing the teething problems aren't that significant, those complaining about having to use buses during the works will just be getting on with their lives.

So your measure of whether a scheme is worthwhile or not is if the people inconvenienced are still moaning in 1 year’s time. Also electrification has nothing to do with Pacer withdrawal.

If you want a sensible discussion which doesn’t include referring to the DfT’s project deliverables then the way it has been sold to the public is faster, quieter, greener journeys.

The journeys won’t be faster, or at least not to any degree where they will either notice or where it makes a difference to their lives. They won’t be quieter as the loss of the drone of the diesel engine, which most people can block out anyway, will be more than made up with the incessant auto announcements on the 319s. That just leaves greener and if they drove during the blockade how many journeys will they have to make to compensate for that?

Is a 1 minute improvement all that's been achieved?

It depends on where you are going. As an example the current 06:35 Blackpool North – Manchester Airport is replaced with a 06:38 Blackpool North – Manchester Airport EMU service in the new timetable. The calling pattern between Blackpool and Preston is the same.

The journey time to Preston is 1 minute quicker but 2 minutes slower to Manchester. The route between Preston and Manchester has changed but that is of no interest to passengers, just the journey time.

 

[superkev]

With all this talk of draconian line speeds anyone know what the projected and past max line speed is Preston Bolton Manchester.
K

 

[AM9]

So your measure of whether a scheme is worthwhile or not is if the people inconvenienced are still moaning in 1 year’s time. Also electrification has nothing to do with Pacer withdrawal.

There are complaints during every significant improvement project on rail when it inconveniences passengers. It's similar to those who complain about road repairs. That's what people do. However, within 1 year of the full service being introduced, I see no reason why fylde coast passengers will behave any different to the rest of the nation's travelling public. The NW electrification has probably eased the decision to withdraw Pacers used on Northern trains. I doubt very much whether such a firm decision would have been made before the electrification was set in action. The electrification also effectively removed any justification of running them a) as running under the wires will become increasingly unacceptable from an environmental aspect and b) the few units needed for the remaining unelectrified lines would constitute a troublesome micro-fleet.

If you want a sensible discussion which doesn’t include referring to the DfT’s project deliverables then the way it has been sold to the public is faster, quieter, greener journeys.

So who made this statement that sold the scheme to the public and how was the official announcement made?

The journeys won’t be faster, or at least not to any degree where they will either notice or where it makes a difference to their lives. They won’t be quieter as the loss of the drone of the diesel engine, which most people can block out anyway, will be more than made up with the incessant auto announcements on the 319s. That just leaves greener and if they drove during the blockade how many journeys will they have to make to compensate for that?

Maybe not from day 1 but in future years, the enhancements to the slowest parts of the infrastructure will allow shorter times in yeasr to come. Those living near the line will at least be spared the 'drone of a diesel engine' and the passengers will get used to the 'incessant auto announcements' just like everbody down south has had to. Had they not electrified the line, how do you think that any nice shiny new DMUs would escape the installation of 'incessant auto announcements'? You may of course think that the 'geriatric' (to use your term) Pacers and 150s would be replaced with 'just as geriatric' 156s, but as MKIII units, they would be similarly refreshed, complete with regulation 'incessant auto announcements'. Get used to them.
Electric trains are a long term investment. Them or thir successors will be running on that line for upwards of 50 years. The impact of those who have chosen to drive over the last few months will be negated long before that time. So will their polluting driving days as ICE powered vehicles will all be banned.