Blackpool Trams News

[Bovverboy]

The following should have been the Standard Summer Timetable:

*T1: Start Gate to Fleetwood (Every 20 Mins)
*T2: Starr Gate to North Station (Every 20 mns)
*T3: North Station to Fleetwood (Every 20 mins)
To run and maintain this service. It would likely require 14 or 15 (out of a Possible 18) Flexity 2s rather than the Measely 11 trams that the current service requires

On the current schedule (i.e. 58 mins Starr Gate to Fleetwood) the above level of service would require 15 trams. On the revised schedule (i.e. from Sunday, 65 mins Starr Gate to Fleetwood) it would require 16.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that the thread is for the discussion of Blackpool Trams - if anyone wants to discuss Blackpool Buses then please post in the Buses and Coaches section of the forum.

thanks

 

[Harvey B]

On the current schedule (i.e. 58 mins Starr Gate to Fleetwood) the above level of service would require 15 trams. On the revised schedule (i.e. from Sunday, 65 mins Starr Gate to Fleetwood) it would require 16.

And that's just the main service without any additional Specials?

 

[bluegoblin7]

The majority of the B fleet Balloons are not available for service, before you even get into the staff training and crewing issues. Of the Balloons that are available, they’re pretty much the backbone of the heritage operation at the moment.

The B fleet were never going to see any kind of meaningful use and this was clear at the time of their conversion. It was a convenient way to retain a number of deckers that still had a meaningful book value.

 

[Nodding Cat Ch]

https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/bts/BLAC/Tram-timetable-20240616-7cabb6bb.pdf

Here's a copy of the new timetable, incl' North station.

 

[Bovverboy]

And that's just the main service without any additional Specials?

That's correct.

 

[Harvey B]

Does anyone know if the Flexities are getting a New voice? Or is it Still going to be Andy Mitchell?

 

[Cesarcollie]

The new electrics are presumably being government funded, however? With ZEBRA or whatever it is?

Well, yes. But Zebra only pays 75% of the difference between the electric cost and an equivalent diesel. And 75% of the infrastructure cost. So BT and/or its shareholder will still be paying most of the cost.

 

[Harvey B]

The majority of the B fleet Balloons are not available for service, before you even get into the staff training and crewing issues. Of the Balloons that are available, they’re pretty much the backbone of the heritage operation at the moment.

The B fleet were never going to see any kind of meaningful use and this was clear at the time of their conversion. It was a convenient way to retain a number of deckers that still had a meaningful book value.

If they were never intended to be used in an official capcity, then why were they converted to suit the modern tramway in the first place?

 

[Vespa]

During my tour of the tram depot and trip up the extension today , the driving stimulator which covered the new ectension is a very interesting learning experience and very easy to pick up having previously driven trams before.

I asked about the the route format, the reason they couldn't do the full line including Blackpool North station in one trip is because of the driving hours regulations, the drivers would end up being out hours part way through the route and need to take their legal breaks without getting an infringement.

 

[bluegoblin7]

If they were never intended to be used in an official capcity, then why were they converted to suit the modern tramway in the first place?

As I said, it was a convenient way of retaining a number of deckers that still had a book value. They were converted at minimum cost with no other mechanical or electrical work undertaken, which is the main reason why so few are now in service. Having been underneath a few of them over the last ten years they were a bit ropey then - they’re not going to have improved. The modifications were always intended to be backwards compatible should a heritage operation ever demand more vehicles.

The “traditional” part of the tramway laying off their engineers, or not replacing them after retirement, as well as the regular use of Starr Gate depot which can’t accommodate the heritage fleet and the “B fleet”, should indicate everything that needs to be around the viability of a regular use.

As I say, for those of us who were around during the conversion it was always apparent that they would never see meaningful use, and any expenditure was always a clever and credible way of retaining a core fleet of trams with some life left in them for future alternative uses.

 

[Bovverboy]

One thing which no-one seems to have mentioned is the fact that, on the new timetable, there will be at least twice as many trams out between 1930 hours and close of service as there are now. So there's a bit of light at the end of the tunnel for you.
I don't think that will do much, however, to offset what most of us think is going to prove an inadequate service for most of the rest of the day.
And apart from the question of overall capacity, there are a couple of unfortunate 'holes' in the timetable.
1) On the current timetable the 15-minute service from Fleetwood commences at 0735 (Mons to Sats) and 0805 (Suns), but on the new one the 15-minute service doesn't begin until 0910. Yes, there is to be an 0825 Fleetwood to North Station (splitting the gap between the 0810 and 0840 Starr Gates) but no 0855, leaving a half-hour gap between 0840 and 0910.
2) There's a sixty-minute gap between the 2215 Starr Gate to North Station and the 2315. I see the point - a 2245 departure isn't considered necessary because there's no need for a 2315 return (there's a 2320 covered by an ex-Fleetwood tram) but gaps like this will always catch people out.
I've already mentioned that, according to the pdf version of the timetable, there will be an 0855 and a 2255 Fleetwood to North Station (neither of which are likely to operate) and you'd think everyone would know how to spell 'Anchorsholme'.

 

[Harvey B]

I've had a look at the metrolink as a comparison and they run their services at a maximum of every 12 minutes per service.

Seen as 2 or more Services can travel on a Single route (I.e: The Section between Bury and Victoria). This wait is then reduced to every 6 minutes.

If Manchester can maintain a maximum gap of every 12 minutes then there's absolutely no excuse for Blackpool to be pushing for a 20 Minute service for each of their 3 routes.

The other option is to just make every Tram Starr Gate-North Station-Fleetwood. Giving a 10 minute Frequency across the board in both directions

I've had a look at the metrolink as a comparison and they run their services at a maximum of every 12 minutes per service.

Seen as 2 or more Services can travel on a Single route (I.e: The Section between Bury and Victoria). This wait is then reduced to every 6 minutes.

If Manchester can maintain a maximum gap of every 12 minutes then there's absolutely no excuse for Blackpool to be pushing for a 20 Minute service for each of their 3 routes.

The other option is to just make every Tram Starr Gate-North Station-Fleetwood. Giving a 10 minute Frequency across the board in both directions

EDIT: I've also had a look at the Edinburgh Trams and they run services at a 7 minute gap between 7am (At the Airport) and 8pm (At Newhaven).

It really does feel like Blackpool Transport are keen on killing off their Tramway by making more and more cuts to their service when other Tram systems in the country are running a reliable service

I Wonder how long it'll be before both Blackpool Council and Blackpool Transport are flooded with complaints from both residents and Tourists about the lack of Direct services between Bispham and the Pleasure Beach

 

[AndrewE]

I've had a look at the metrolink as a comparison and they run their services at a maximum of every 12 minutes per service.

Seen as 2 or more Services can travel on a Single route (I.e: The Section between Bury and Victoria). This wait is then reduced to every 6 minutes.

If Manchester can maintain a maximum gap of every 12 minutes then there's absolutely no excuse for Blackpool to be pushing for a 20 Minute service for each of their 3 routes.

The other option is to just make every Tram Starr Gate-North Station-Fleetwood. Giving a 10 minute Frequency across the board in both directions


EDIT: I've also had a look at the Edinburgh Trams and they run services at a 7 minute gap between 7am (At the Airport) and 8pm (At Newhaven).

It really does feel like Blackpool Transport are keen on killing off their Tramway by making more and more cuts to their service when other Tram systems in the country are running a reliable service

I Wonder how long it'll be before both Blackpool Council and Blackpool Transport are flooded with complaints from both residents and Tourists about the lack of Direct services between Bispham and the Pleasure Beach

I really think you should consider the relative budgets of the two/three operations...

 

[Towers]

The majority of the B fleet Balloons are not available for service, before you even get into the staff training and crewing issues. Of the Balloons that are available, they’re pretty much the backbone of the heritage operation at the moment.

The B fleet were never going to see any kind of meaningful use and this was clear at the time of their conversion. It was a convenient way to retain a number of deckers that still had a meaningful book value.

I find it difficult to believe that a very well used 1930s tramcar would have had sufficient book value to justify expensive conversion work just to keep hold of them! Presumably it was anticipated that the tramway would actually be operated in way that reflected seasonal demand post-upgrade, and the Balloons were to have been deployed to cater for this. The fact that they have never seen service is quite clearly down to management decisions rather than lack of demand; if BT were to run the full fleet in high summer they’d fill them happily, they just choose instead to run a hopeless skeleton service at all times. It really is the epitome of short sightedness; why on earth was it ever upgraded if it was to result in a useless service that is surpassed by a parallel bus route!

 

[Harvey B]

I find it difficult to believe that a very well used 1930s tramcar would have had sufficient book value to justify expensive conversion work just to keep hold of them! Presumably it was anticipated that the tramway would actually be operated in way that reflected seasonal demand post-upgrade, and the Balloons were to have been deployed to cater for this. The fact that they have never seen service is quite clearly down to management decisions rather than lack of demand; if BT were to run the full fleet in high summer they’d fill them happily, they just choose instead to run a hopeless skeleton service at all times. It really is the epitome of short sightedness; why on earth was it ever upgraded if it was to result in a useless service that is surpassed by a parallel bus route!

First of all. I thought they cut the Number 1 Bus Route altogether.

Second of all. I feel like the Problems that Blackpool Transport face with the Tramway all stem from 2020 and the Covid Pandemic. This 15 minute frequency has been in place for a good 3/4 years now (and I'm pretty sure that it used to be every 10 minutes or less before Covid happend). How come we're 3/4 years down the line from the height of the Covid Pandemic and yet, the budget to run a Full Tramway service hasn't been restored?

I really think you should consider the relative budgets of the two/three operations...

Can i ask what you mean here?

Also, I may point out that Blackpool Transport have 18 Flexity 2 Trams and yet the "New and Improved Service" requires only 11 Trams so what's the point of even having 16 Trams (Nevermind 18 Trams) if you're only going to use only 11 on any given day?

 

[markymark2000]

https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/bts/BLAC/Tram-timetable-20240616-7cabb6bb.pdf

Here's a copy of the new timetable, incl' North station.

5 minutes from Talbot Square to Blackpool North! It's less than 400 metres. That's an average of 2.8 miles per hour! Fleetwood Ferry to Fishermans Walk gets 7 minutes so a rough average of 7 miles per hour and that includes a stop on the way and a slowish plod around past the Ferry.

The average person walks at 3 miles per hour so it would actually be quicker to walk from Talbot Square to Blackpool North based off those times!

I asked about the the route format, the reason they couldn't do the full line including Blackpool North station in one trip is because of the driving hours regulations, the drivers would end up being out hours part way through the route and need to take their legal breaks without getting an infringement.

Why can't they just swap drivers then at North Station?

 

[Towers]

First of all. I thought they cut the Number 1 Bus Route altogether.

Second of all. I feel like the Problems that Blackpool Transport face with the Tramway all stem from 2020 and the Covid Pandemic. This 15 minute frequency has been in place for a good 3/4 years now (and I'm pretty sure that it used to be every 10 minutes or less before Covid happend). How come we're 3/4 years down the line from the height of the Covid Pandemic and yet, the budget to run a Full Tramway service hasn't been restored?


Can i ask what you mean here?

Also, I may point out that Blackpool Transport have 18 Flexity 2 Trams and yet the "New and Improved Service" requires only 11 Trams so what's the point of even having 16 Trams (Nevermind 18 Trams) if you're only going to use only 11 on any given day?

Indeed, having a peak fleet requirement of 11 trams and then paying for another 7 to sit idle every day is very poor. Do we know are the fleet leased, financed or owned outright?

As for Covid, of course it was an excuse for many industries of all types to cut back and save money, and returns to pre-pandemic levels of service have been notoriously slow to emerge across the board. BT would doubtless claim that its trams are full and therefore the service works well; who is counting how are left waiting for the next tram or decide to give up and walk?! The railway has been following a similar model with gusto.

 

[bramling]

I understand that of course, but Blackpool is still the country's most popular seaside resort and the trams have always been the way that Blackpool moved people around. The present management have completely abdicted any responsibility for this. We're left with an infrequent and inadequate service, which may serve the local population well in winter months, but will greatly inconvenience and annoy visitors. How on earth will people move around during illumination weekends, when the main demand will cross North Pier? The last hope is that they might run all-day specials throughout the season to help, but I'm losing faith.

A half-hourly service presumably won’t work particularly well on market days at Fleetwood either, where it isn’t uncommon for trams to be very crowded before they’ve even passed through the centre.

It’s been a while since I’ve been to Blackpool, is the market still popular?

 

[Bovverboy]

If Manchester can maintain a maximum gap of every 12 minutes then there's absolutely no excuse for Blackpool to be pushing for a 20 Minute service for each of their 3 routes.

The infrastructure would probably permit a tram every two minutes, the ultimate limiting factor is the size of the tram fleet. A twenty minute service on each of the three routes (i.e. every ten over common sections) would require sixteen trams out daily, and sixteen is realistically the most you could schedule from a fleet of eighteen.

Quote from Harvey B:
The other option is to just make every Tram Starr Gate-North Station-Fleetwood. Giving a 10 minute Frequency across the board in both directions.

That would also require sixteen trams. It would be fractionally tighter than the first option, but still doable, I think.

 

[Towers]

The infrastructure would probably permit a tram every two minutes, the ultimate limiting factor is the size of the tram fleet. A twenty minute service on each of the three routes (i.e. every ten over common sections) would require sixteen trams out daily, and sixteen is realistically the most you could schedule from a fleet of eighteen.

Quote from Harvey B:
The other option is to just make every Tram Starr Gate-North Station-Fleetwood. Giving a 10 minute Frequency across the board in both directions.

That would also require sixteen trams. It would be fractionally tighter than the first option, but still doable, I think.

Except, of course, the total available LRT-compatible fleet numbers significantly more than just the 18 ‘new’ trams; there is a “B fleet” which was converted specifically to provide that additional support. No reason not to use them for seasonal capacity enhancements.

 

[AndrewE]

Can i ask what you mean here?

Also, I may point out that Blackpool Transport have 18 Flexity 2 Trams and yet the "New and Improved Service" requires only 11 Trams so what's the point of even having 16 Trams (Nevermind 18 Trams) if you're only going to use only 11 on any given day?

Simply that capital expenditure (maybe from grant funding, or from some regional / levelling up investment pool) is worth grabbing to increase fleet size, but that doesn't mean that the organisation has the headroom in its budget to take on enough staff to run or maintain them all.

Blackpool is notorious for its unmet current funding needs, see https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-4bn-to-prevent-widespread-bankruptcy-mps-say as lots of homeless families have been transported there (and other people with problems who the local authority are supposed to support.)

 

[Bovverboy]

First of all. I thought they cut the Number 1 Bus Route altogether.

Bus route 1 currently runs every hour North Pier to Fleetwood, daytime only. From Sunday it is to run from North Station, with only minor changes to departure times, operating hours pretty much unchanged.

A half-hourly service presumably won’t work particularly well on market days at Fleetwood either, where it isn’t uncommon for trams to be very crowded before they’ve even passed through the centre.

On the new timetable there will the same number of trams to/from Fleetwood in the middle of the day as there are now, i.e. one every 15 minutes. The difference will be that, instead of them all running to/from Starr Gate, half will run to/from North Station. I doubt that will cause a problem for Fleetwood market.
The 30-minute service is going to upgrade to a 15-minute service from 0910 rather than 0735, but that is a reduction of only two departures, and that, in itself, shouldn't have any great relevance for Fleetwood market.

 

[davehsug]

Bus route 1 currently runs every hour North Pier to Fleetwood, daytime only. From Sunday it is to run from North Station, with only minor changes to departure times, operating hours pretty much unchanged.


On the new timetable there will the same number of trams to/from Fleetwood in the middle of the day as there are now, i.e. one every 15 minutes. The difference will be that, instead of them all running to/from Starr Gate, half will run to/from North Station. I doubt that will cause a problem for Fleetwood market.
The 30-minute service is going to upgrade to a 15-minute service from 0910 rather than 0735, but that is a reduction of only two departures, and that, in itself, shouldn't have any great relevance for Fleetwood market.

I think I outlined in post #125 exactly what the problems will be for the Fleetwood service.

 

[Bovverboy]

I think I outlined in post #125 exactly what the problems will be for the Fleetwood service.

So, currently, Fleetwood trams are bursting by Cabin and anyone wanting to board after that point gets left behind?

 

[cool110]

Just got back from this morning's depot tour and heritage tram ride via the extension. Another new development is that they're fitting the LRTs with AEB and speed limiters, saw them doing some setup work in the depot and then just after we got back it being taken out for a "realistic" test. Put a cardboard box in the middle of the track and it did stop itself before hitting it at both low speed and the full 30MPH..

 

[philthetube]

Good news for seagulls, can see them being an issue here.

 

[Towers]

Hmm. Avoid knocking over one person/cardboard box/other assorted obstruction, injure a tramload of inevitably standing passengers insetad via an emergency brake application!

 

[Harvey B]

Indeed, having a peak fleet requirement of 11 trams and then paying for another 7 to sit idle every day is very poor. Do we know are the fleet leased, financed or owned outright?

I'm wondering the same thing. If they are leased/Financed then wouldn't make sense to hand 3/4 of the Flexities back to the financing company?

If a split service requring 11 Trams is the future then shouldn't they keep 13/14 Trams and let the rest go back to the leasing company/send them to the scrapyard? What's the point of keeping the remaining 4/5 if only 11 will be in use each day?

On the new timetable there will the same number of trams to/from Fleetwood in the middle of the day as there are now, i.e. one every 15 minutes. The difference will be that, instead of them all running to/from Starr Gate, half will run to/from North Station. I doubt that will cause a problem for Fleetwood market.
The 30-minute service is going to upgrade to a 15-minute service from 0910 rather than 0735, but that is a reduction of only two departures, and that, in itself, shouldn't have any great relevance for Fleetwood market.

But what If someone living south of the Tower wants to go to Fleetwood Market? Trams to Fleetwood will still be running at Half hour intervals between Starr Gate and Tower

Except, of course, the total available LRT-compatible fleet numbers significantly more than just the 18 ‘new’ trams; there is a “B fleet” which was converted specifically to provide that additional support. No reason not to use them for seasonal capacity enhancements.

Why even have a B Fleet of Balloon Trams if you're not even going to use the the A fleet to their full extent during your busiest periods?

(I'd understand it of they were running a timetable that requires 15 or 16 trams to run during their busiest period instead of one that requires just 11)

They should either use as much of the Capacity as you can during the busiest periods (Which is almosy every day between April and November), or Flog off the surplus capacity isn't needed?

I wonder how much money the Tram system is losing on a daily basis at this time of year because they are leaving 7 of their trams sitting empty at Starr Gate?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They should either use as much of the Capacity as you can during the busiest periods (Which is almosy every day between April and November), or Flog off the surplus capacity isn't needed.

Which other UK-based tramway operator would be able to make use of them?