Blackpool Trams News

[Harvey B]

Which other UK-based tramway operator would be able to make use of them?

I reckon they'd likely get bought up by a Private Equity firm who'd sell them on to a Scrapyard. Or they'd get bought by a Scrapyard directly rather than going through the middle man.

Either way. They'd still end up at the Scrapyard

 

[Tramfan]

I'm wondering the same thing. If they are leased/Financed then wouldn't make sense to hand 3/4 of the Flexities back to the financing company?

If a split service requring 11 Trams is the future then shouldn't they keep 13/14 Trams and let the rest go back to the leasing company/send them to the scrapyard? What's the point of keeping the remaining 4/5 if only 11 will be in use each day?

But what If someone living south of the Tower wants to go to Fleetwood Market? Trams to Fleetwood will still be running at Half hour intervals between Starr Gate and Tower

Why even have a B Fleet of Balloon Trams if you're not even going to use the the A fleet to their full extent during your busiest periods?

(I'd understand it of they were running a timetable that requires 15 or 16 trams to run during their busiest period instead of one that requires just 11)

They should either use as much of the Capacity as you can during the busiest periods (Which is almosy every day between April and November), or Flog off the surplus capacity isn't needed?

I wonder how much money the Tram system is losing on a daily basis at this time of year because they are leaving 7 of their trams sitting empty at Starr Gate?

Indeed, I've certainly seen many occasions where Fleetwood bound trams would be full and standing by North Pier on market Tuesdays, even in the days of the 10 and 12 minute frequencies...

I get that it must be difficult to plan and roster for something like the Blackpool Tramway that doesn't experience the same peak patterns as other light rail/tram systems. However, I can't help feeling that the old methods of working pre-upgrade, where you had a bare-bones timetable and then pushed out non-timetabled additional trams running as required on the day suited the Blackpool Tramway better than the new way of having a more all-year round timetable they seem to be migrating towards.

By it's nature as a seaside town, the tram's peaks are seasonal (10am hotel rush aside), so by it's nature having the same frequency running on a wet Wednesday in January, and a scorching hot August bank holiday in the middle of the summer holidays just doesn't work.

Indeed, having a peak fleet requirement of 11 trams and then paying for another 7 to sit idle every day is very poor. Do we know are the fleet leased, financed or owned outright?

As for Covid, of course it was an excuse for many industries of all types to cut back and save money, and returns to pre-pandemic levels of service have been notoriously slow to emerge across the board. BT would doubtless claim that its trams are full and therefore the service works well; who is counting how are left waiting for the next tram or decide to give up and walk?! The railway has been following a similar model with gusto.

I believe they're owned by the Council

 

[Towers]

Which other UK-based tramway operator would be able to make use of them?

The Flexities? You’d imagine they could be quite easily tweaked as needed back at the factory and found an alternative home somewhere in the world?

I'm wondering the same thing. If they are leased/Financed then wouldn't make sense to hand 3/4 of the Flexities back to the financing company?

If a split service requring 11 Trams is the future then shouldn't they keep 13/14 Trams and let the rest go back to the leasing company/send them to the scrapyard? What's the point of keeping the remaining 4/5 if only 11 will be in use each day?

But what If someone living south of the Tower wants to go to Fleetwood Market? Trams to Fleetwood will still be running at Half hour intervals between Starr Gate and Tower

Why even have a B Fleet of Balloon Trams if you're not even going to use the the A fleet to their full extent during your busiest periods?

(I'd understand it of they were running a timetable that requires 15 or 16 trams to run during their busiest period instead of one that requires just 11)

They should either use as much of the Capacity as you can during the busiest periods (Which is almosy every day between April and November), or Flog off the surplus capacity isn't needed?

I wonder how much money the Tram system is losing on a daily basis at this time of year because they are leaving 7 of their trams sitting empty at Starr Gate?

No doubt the answer/excuse here might well be of the “can’t get the staff” variety; however I find that odd. Blackpool is frequently described as one of the most deprived, poorest areas of the UK. A job like tram driver would, you’d think, be pretty highly sought after, compared to the other unskilled labour careers available. Most odd that BT apparently can’t attract applicants.

Indeed, I've certainly seen many occasions where Fleetwood bound trams would be full and standing by North Pier on market Tuesdays, even in the days of the 10 and 12 minute frequencies...

I get that it must be difficult to plan and roster for something like the Blackpool Tramway that doesn't experience the same peak patterns as other light rail/tram systems. However, I can't help feeling that the old methods of working pre-upgrade, where you had a bare-bones timetable and then pushed out non-timetabled additional trams running as required on the day suited the Blackpool Tramway better than the new way of having a more all-year round timetable they seem to be migrating towards.

By it's nature as a seaside town, the tram's peaks are seasonal (10am hotel rush aside), so by it's nature having the same frequency running on a wet Wednesday in January, and a scorching hot August bank holiday in the middle of the summer holidays just doesn't work.


I believe they're owned by the Council

Agree with all of that; quite simply the Blackpool tramway works best as a promenade crowd shifter, with the next tram always in sight just a few minutes away. The attempts to run it like a bus service with a strictly regimented, ‘one size’ timetable, just aren’t working. It needs a rethink.

If the tramcars are wholly owned by the council then they need to start considering their options; substantial money could be released by offloading the excess Flexities and supplementing a core fleet with the Balloons as needed.

 

[davehsug]

So, currently, Fleetwood trams are bursting by Cabin and anyone wanting to board after that point gets left behind?

In the morning peak yes. Although few people want to board after Cabin anyway and the tram always unloads a few at Cleveleys. Given the average age of most of the passengers though, I don't think the standing, jammed in like sardines is particularly acceptable.

 

[AndrewE]

No doubt the answer/excuse here might well be of the “can’t get the staff” variety; however I find that odd. Blackpool is frequently described as one of the most deprived, poorest areas of the UK. A job like tram driver would, you’d think, be pretty highly sought after, compared to the other unskilled labour careers available. Most odd that BT apparently can’t attract applicants.

Most likely "Can't afford to take them on."

Agree with all of that; quite simply the Blackpool tramway works best as a promenade crowd shifter, with the next tram always in sight just a few minutes away. The attempts to run it like a bus service with a strictly regimented, ‘one size’ timetable, just aren’t working. It needs a rethink.

Agreed, but I think you should have said "a few seconds away!"
My wife's uncle used to talk about how a succession of Manchester double deckers would soak up the crowds leaving Old Trafford.

 

[Bovverboy]

The following should have been the Standard Summer Timetable:

*T1: Start Gate to Fleetwood (Every 20 Mins)
*T2: Starr Gate to North Station (Every 20 mns)
*T3: North Station to Fleetwood (Every 20 mins)
To run and maintain this service. It would likely require 14 or 15 (out of a Possible 18) Flexity 2s rather than the Measely 11 trams that the current service requires

The current basic service actually requires only nine trams. The basic service from tomorrow is going to need eleven.

 

[Harvey B]

The Flexities? You’d imagine they could be quite easily tweaked as needed back at the factory and found an alternative home somewhere in the world?

It'll be either that or the scrap I suppose if they were to get rid of the excess 4 or 5. Even with an 11 Tram service you'd still need 13 or 14 Trams with the extra 2/3 trams acting as spares in case one breaks down

No doubt the answer/excuse here might well be of the “can’t get the staff” variety; however I find that odd. Blackpool is frequently described as one of the most deprived, poorest areas of the UK. A job like tram driver would, you’d think, be pretty highly sought after, compared to the other unskilled labour careers available. Most odd that BT apparently can’t attract applicants.

I would certainly take up the job working on the Trams if I had the chance to do so. I also thought that it would haven taken a few months at least before an inexperienced new hire even start learning to drive the Trams

substantial money could be released by offloading the excess Flexities and supplementing a core fleet with the Balloons as needed.

This would likely mean that certain members of the B Fleet would end up running on both Heritage Services as well as LRT Specials so how would you be able to tell if one was on LRT duties and one was on Heritage? Maybe they should have colour coded placards in the window to differentiate (i.e: Purple for LRT and Green for Heritage)

The current basic service actually requires only nine trams. The basic service from tomorrow is going to need eleven.

And how many Trams would a 10/12 Minute frequency have required prior to the North Station Extension?

 

[Bovverboy]

And how many Trams would a 10/12 Minute frequency have required prior to the North Station Extension?

A ten minute service would have needed thirteen trams, a twelve minute service eleven. That's based on the running times which prevailed up to today. On the running times effective from tomorrow, the figures are fourteen and twelve respectively.
This increase in running times may have occurred in previous Summers, perhaps someone with local knowledge can say?

 

[Harvey B]

A ten minute service would have needed thirteen trams, a twelve minute service eleven. That's based on the running times which prevailed up to today. On the running times effective from tomorrow, the figures are fourteen and twelve respectively.
This increase in running times may have occurred in previous Summers, perhaps someone with local knowledge can say?

Here's the Summer 2017 Timetable. Showing a 10 minute frequency between 7:50 am and 7pm. This is Obviously an April to September Timetable so I'd imagine that the 10 minute frequency would have continued up until 9/10 pm once the illuminations were lit up https://images.blackpooltransport.com/timetables/2017-04/C133 2017 Screen.pdf

CORRECTION: It's actually the full 2017 timetable

 

[Tramfan]

Here's the Summer 2017 Timetable. Showing a 10 minute frequency between 7:50 am and 7pm. This is Obviously an April to September Timetable so I'd imagine that the 10 minute frequency would have continued up until 9/10 pm once the illuminations were lit up https://images.blackpooltransport.com/timetables/2017-04/C133 2017 Screen.pdf

You can see the autumn and winter timetables for 2017 on that PDF too, think that was the only time I've known the entire year's timetable variations be published at the start of the season.

The Autumn (illuminations) timetable has varied a bit over the last few years, but generally the daytime frequency would reduce to every 12 minutes, with a 10 minute frequency between Little Bispham and Starr after 6pm, increasing to a 7.5 minute frequency on Friday/Saturday evenings.

This increase in running times may have occurred in previous Summers, perhaps someone with local knowledge can say?

The typical winter running times have been 55 minutes, rising to 58 minutes for the summer season. When the tramway first reopened post-upgrade, the running time was 50 minutes, but timekeeping was atrocious.

The new 65 minute running time is interesting considering the old tramway used to be 62/63 minutes in summer and 58(?) in the winter with almost double the number of stops, single door for loading/unloading (twin cars aside), no priority at road crossings, and of course the old fleet working the service.

 

[Harvey B]

On the running times effective from tomorrow, the figures are fourteen and twelve respectively.

Only 14 Trams are needed to run a 10 minute Frequency? I thought 16 would have been required?

You can see the autumn and winter timetables for 2017 on that PDF too, think that was the only time I've known the entire year's timetable variations be published at the start of the season.

The Autumn (illuminations) timetable has varied a bit over the last few years, but generally the daytime frequency would reduce to every 12 minutes, with a 10 minute frequency between Little Bispham and Starr after 6pm, increasing to a 7.5 minute frequency on Friday/Saturday evenings.


The typical winter running times have been 55 minutes, rising to 58 minutes for the summer season. When the tramway first reopened post-upgrade, the running time was 50 minutes, but timekeeping was atrocious.

The new 65 minute running time is interesting considering the old tramway used to be 62/63 minutes in summer and 58(?) in the winter with almost double the number of stops, single door for loading/unloading (twin cars aside), no priority at road crossings, and of course the old fleet working the service.

It's quite dismal (and also humiliating) how the Tramway had a reliable 10 or 12 minute service during their busiest periods 7 years ago. And yet, 7 years later, the service has been cut to 15 minutes across the board, and as of tomorrow, the amount of trams running the main route (T1) is going to be reduced to every 30 mins. It's even more fun and games if you're going anywhere south of North Station as the service is either every 30 Minutes (up to Pleasent Street) or the rather odd 5/25/5/25 split if you're waiting anywhere south of North Pier.

Whoever's been put in charge of planning the new timetable really needs firing for being so short sighted

 

[Cesarcollie]

Only 14 Trams are needed to run a 10 minute Frequency? I thought 16 would have been required?


It's quite dismal (and also humiliating) how the Tramway had a reliable 10 or 12 minute service during their busiest periods 7 years ago. And yet, 7 years later, the service has been cut to 15 minutes across the board, and as of tomorrow, the amount of trams running the main route (T1) is going to be reduced to every 30 mins. It's even more fun and games if you're going anywhere south of North Station as the service is either every 30 Minutes (up to Pleasent Street) or the rather odd 5/25/5/25 split if you're waiting anywhere south of North Pier.

Whoever's been put in charge of planning the new timetable really needs firing for being so short sighted

Don‘t forget that generally - post covid - passenger numbers have declined. Ultimately Blackpool Transport and its shareholder Blackpool Council have to match costs with revenue - unless they can afford to increase subsidy for the tramway. The whole tramway upgrade for a relatively small town with big flows only in summer was always a dubious business case - and Covid will have made things worse. Tramways are even more expensive to run than buses! I guess the chickens are nowncoming home to roost……

 

[Harvey B]

Don‘t forget that generally - post covid - passenger numbers have declined. Ultimately Blackpool Transport and its shareholder Blackpool Council have to match costs with revenue - unless they can afford to increase subsidy for the tramway. The whole tramway upgrade for a relatively small town with big flows only in summer was always a dubious business case - and Covid will have made things worse. Tramways are even more expensive to run than buses!

I'm pretty sure that if Blackpool Transport ran a full, Reliable and Adequete service during their main Tourist season, They'd make more than enough money to justify it. Especially during the Illuminations when every tram is packed full.

The demand to run a regular 10 minute service during the summer but they're just choosing not to reinstate it for one reason or another.

I wonder if an underlying reason could be partly down to the fact that Conductors aren't able to take enough fares on a Tram that is at capacity

I guess the chickens are nowncoming home to roost……

What do you mean?

 

[Bovverboy]

Only 14 Trams are needed to run a 10 minute Frequency? I thought 16 would have been required?

Fourteen trams would be required to run a ten-minute service on the relaxed schedule coming into force tomorrow (i.e. sixty-five minutes running time end-to-end, and a minimum of five minutes recovery time at the termini), but without the extension to North Station.
Sending every other tram to North Station would require sixteen trams, and sending them all seventeen.

 

[markymark2000]

I wonder if an underlying reason could be partly down to the fact that Conductors aren't able to take enough fares on a Tram that is at capacity

So the solution of making trams even more crammed surely won't help that situation?

Plus, that can be resolved if Blackpool Transport pushed towards more off tram ticket sales such as the app. Also possibly removing some conductors from trams and having them sell tickets instead at key stations. As daft as it sounds (why would people pay before boarding if they can get on and there is a good chance of them not being asked to pay) but many would likely pay for it.

 

[Harvey B]

Fourteen trams would be required to run a ten-minute service on the relaxed scheduled coming into force tomorrow (i.e. sixty-five minutes running time end-to-end, and a minimum of five minutes recovery time at the termini), but without the extension to North Station.
Sending every other tram to North Station would require sixteen trams, and sending them all seventeen.

So it's 14 Trams required for a 10 min frequency assuming that the Trams don't have an extended layover there?

 

[Bovverboy]

So it's 14 Trams required for a 10 min frequency assuming that the Trams don't have an extended layover there?

They don't have an extended layover where?

 

[Harvey B]

They don't have an extended layover where?

North Station

 

[Bovverboy]

North Station

And how many Trams would a 10/12 Minute frequency have required prior to the North Station Extension?

They wouldn't have an extended layover at North Station if they weren't going there.

 

[geoffk]

Doesn't Blackpool Transport always schedule extras (e.g. Bispham - Pleasure Beach) during the summer period? The published timetable, which we are discussing here, only shows the base ‘winter’ run-out.

 

[H&I]

This is the view from my hotel room window this morning of the first tram, which departed from Starr Gate at 06:55. I was able to run upstairs and take a few photographs during the 10-minute turnaround at North Station. This is a textbook example of transit-oriented development. The hotel even has a secondary entrance right next to the tram stop!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Half hourly tram service is chaos. 0950 tram from North Pier to Starr Gate left early, and the following tram from Fleetwood is rammed. Utter shambles.

 

[Tramfan]

They used to put double figures worth of extra trams out, but this pretty much stopped after the upgrade. There have been a few out in the last couple of months but I've assumed that they have been able to do this because of having to uplift crew numbers ready for the extension.

I'm not expecting any out now that the extension is open, indeed they are reporting cancellations due to staff shortage this morning.

 

[geoffk]

They used to put double figures worth of extra trams out, but this pretty much stopped after the upgrade. There have been a few out in the last couple of months but I've assumed that they have been able to do this because of having to uplift crew numbers ready for the extension.

I'm not expecting any out now that the extension is open, indeed they are reporting cancellations due to staff shortage this morning.

Does Blackpool Transport not have Sundays inside the working week?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is the view from my hotel room window this morning of the first tram, which departed from Starr Gate at 06:55. I was able to run upstairs and take a few photographs during the 10-minute turnaround at North Station. This is a textbook example of transit-oriented development. The hotel even has a secondary entrance right next to the tram stop!

Has there been any Blackpool Transport statrment made on how the tram stop surrounding area will be landscaped or paved?

 

[Harvey B]

Sending every other tram to North Station would require sixteen trams, and sending them all seventeen.

Why do you say All 17 trams, when Blackpool has 18?

How many trams would a 7.5 minute service require with now that the North Station is open?

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'm pretty sure that if Blackpool Transport ran a full, Reliable and Adequete service during their main Tourist season, They'd make more than enough money to justify it. Especially during the Illuminations when every tram is packed full.

The demand to run a regular 10 minute service during the summer but they're just choosing not to reinstate it for one reason or another.

I wonder if an underlying reason could be partly down to the fact that Conductors aren't able to take enough fares on a Tram that is at capacity


What do you mean?

I'm pretty sure that if Blackpool Transport ran a full, Reliable and Adequete service during their main Tourist season, They'd make more than enough money to justify it. Especially during the Illuminations when every tram is packed full.

The demand to run a regular 10 minute service during the summer but they're just choosing not to reinstate it for one reason or another.

I wonder if an underlying reason could be partly down to the fact that Conductors aren't able to take enough fares on a Tram that is at capacity


What do you mean?

I mean that it is proving impossible to match revenue with costs!

 

[Bovverboy]

Sending every other tram to North Station would require sixteen trams, and sending them all seventeen.

Why do you say All 17 trams, when Blackpool has 18?

Imagine that, in my post, there is a comma after the word 'all'.

How many trams would a 7.5 minute service require with now that the North Station is open?

It depends whether you mean a 15-minute service over all three routes (giving a 7.5-minute service over common sections) or a 7.5 minute service over all three routes, giving a 3.75-minute service over common sections. If the former the answer is 22 trams, if the latter probably 42, but I haven't meticulously checked it out.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Personally I think it should be the following:

T1: Starr Gate to Fleetwood every 15 minutes
T2: Pleasure Beach to Station every 15 minutes
T3: Fleetwood to North Station every 30 minutes.

Therefore, combined frequency of every 7-8 minutes between Starr Gate and North Pier, and then slightly less between Fleetwood and North Pier which is fine as at least the core section (Cleveleys to Pleasure Beach) would have something at least every 15 minutes.

In addition to that, I think there should also be a half hourly Pleasure Beach to Bispham B fleet on weekends.

It's getting crazy at the moment. Half hourly trams from North Shore to Pleasure Beach is nothing short of embarrassing.

 

[Bovverboy]

Personally I think it should be the following:

T1: Starr Gate to Fleetwood every 15 minutes
T2: Pleasure Beach to Station every 15 minutes
T3: Fleetwood to North Station every 30 minutes.

Therefore, combined frequency of every 7-8 minutes between Starr Gate and North Pier, and then slightly less between Fleetwood and North Pier which is fine as at least the core section (Cleveleys to Pleasure Beach) would have something at least every 15 minutes.

In addition to that, I think there should also be a half hourly Pleasure Beach to Bispham B fleet on weekends.

Some comments.
1. On the timetable you are proposing, there would be a combined service of 7/8 minutes between Pleasure Beach and North Pier, rather than Starr Gate and North Pier.
2. You would have an uneven service between Fleetwood and North Pier, a 30-minute service superimposed on a 15-minute one.
3. Same comment in respect of weekends, between Pleasure Beach and North Pier you would have a 30-minute service superimposed on a 7/8-minute one. (But between North Pier and Bispham you might be able to use the 'B' fleet service to combine with the other services to make a 7/8-minute service.)