Blackpool Trams News

[ValleyLines142]

Some comments.
1. On the timetable you are proposing, there would be a combined service of 7/8 minutes between Pleasure Beach and North Pier, rather than Starr Gate and North Pier.
2. You would have an uneven service between Fleetwood and North Pier, a 30-minute service superimposed on a 15-minute one.
3. Same comment in respect of weekends, between Pleasure Beach and North Pier you would have a 30-minute service superimposed on a 7/8-minute one. (But between North Pier and Bispham you might be able to use the 'B' fleet service to combine with the other services to make a 7/8-minute service.)

I think Starr Gate to Pleasure Beach could remain at every 15 minutes.

 

[Bovverboy]

Therefore, combined frequency of every 7-8 minutes between Starr Gate and North Pier

I think Starr Gate to Pleasure Beach could remain at every 15 minutes.

So there wouldn't be a 7-8 minute service from Starr Gate.

 

[ValleyLines142]

So there wouldn't be a 7-8 minute service from Starr Gate.

Sorry, I meant from Pleasure Beach.

 

[Harvey B]

Even Jen on the Move has done a video detailing how the New timetable is going end up being a complete disaster

. I'm now of the opinion that they should either commit to running a full, reliable service during the summer, or just simply wind up the whole Tram system and dig it all up. No point even having a Tram system if it's only ever going to run an unreliable Skeleton service. It really does feel like this new timetable was made up on a whim at really short notice.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Interesting. I made a number of trips between North Station and both north and south thereof today. Aside from one issue at around 1730 with the points to go north and a couple of crewing shortages, everything ran smoothly. In practice most connections between T2 and T3 'made' at North Station allowing people to easily continue their journeys. Through services were no busier than the shorts.

I suspect we will see the timetable tweaked based on feedback - there were some great ideas being suggested by the Inspectors at North Station - and overlaid LRT 'specials' as has always been the case during the highest peak. The fact that even with 11 trams out there were crew shortages should also point to some of the logistical challenges.

The B fleet is not and never has been the answer. The information is all available on this forum if anybody does want to appraise themselves of what actually happened/was planned in 2010. All of the modified Balloons had had significant life extension expenditure spent on them in the ~10 years prior, including pretty much complete rebuilds for the 'Millennium'-style cars and 720 (the first to be withdrawn, ironically). The modifications to allow them to call at the platforms were done on the cheap and entirely reversible. The repainting of many of these cars into heritage liveries - in at least one case being painted out of the purple fleet livery - should explain everything that needs to be known.

Sporadic use because there's a spare crew with Balloon knowledge is very different to day in, day out usage.

And even if you wanted to do that, the fact that the trams aren't RVAR compliant (there's a loooooooong list of exemptions to allow their limited use, which is where the 'B fleet' terminology stems from) limits how many days they can be used per year. At least one was even offered on permanent loan to a Museum line. I can't remember the exact number of days off-hand (it aligns with vintage buses iirc) but you're never going to be able to have any meaningful use from a fleet of 9 (actually 8, because as mentioned 720 is long term stopped due to... door issues, and actually less than that, because 711 and 719 had less life extension work done and are nearing the point where that's needed. And less than that, because 700, 707 and 718 are basically de facto members of the heritage fleet, providing much-needed capacity for illuminations season. So you're going to run your B fleet specials with... 709, 713 and 724 (which is long term stopped and stripped)...? To quote the Heritage Tram Tours website: "The reality was that these nine converted Balloons have not been needed as expected and several are now in disrepair. Others such as 700 have been ‘adopted’ into the Heritage fleet and can still operate on public service if there is demand."

Which sums it all up.

The first day is rarely exemplary of the reality. Teething problems happen, it's a part of life. That might be reflected by vloggers if they spent more time using the system and less racing to be the first to release their videos.

 

[Towers]

In summary then, the creation of the B Fleet was poorly thought out and a waste of money, the acquisition of the full Flexity fleet was also poorly thought out and a waste of money, and the current timetable is most definitely poorly thought out, that is obvious. Whether the hopeless service pattern renders the extension to be also a waste of money, we shall see!

What a shame to see such an air of inevitable cynicism envelop a much loved system; alas it seems unavoidable given the current direction those supposedly in charge are choosing to take.

*Further to previous reports here of no apparent recruitment, the BT website now carries an ad for tramway driver/conductors, so that is at least some progress!

 

[Harvey B]

In summary then, the creation of the B Fleet was poorly thought out and a waste of money, the acquisition of the full Flexity fleet was also poorly thought out and a waste of money, and the current timetable is most definitely poorly thought out, that is obvious. Whether the hopeless service pattern renders the extension to be also a waste of money, we shall see!

What a shame to see such an air of inevitable cynicism envelop a much loved system; alas it seems unavoidable given the current direction those supposedly in charge are choosing to take.

In summary: Blackpool Council are trying their very best to basically finish off the Blackpool Trams. Even if they don't want to, it sure does seem like they're trying their best to kill them off.

It'll come a point where Blackpool Council will have to make a decision on whether to keep the Tramaway and run a full service. Or permanently close it and dig up the Tram Tracks

*Further to previous reports here of no apparent recruitment, the BT website now carries an ad for tramway driver/conductors, so that is at least some progress!

I doubt it means anything unless they were doing a major recruitment drive to run an adequeute Summer/Illuminations service. I have a feeling it'l be just essential recruitment to replace Staff who are leaving/retiring/being fired

 

[H&I]

Has there been any Blackpool Transport statrment made on how the tram stop surrounding area will be landscaped or paved?

The surrounding area will be built-up as part of the Talbot Gateway mixed-use regeneration scheme.

 

[randyrippley]

Have the corrosion problems reported in the trams and garage last year been resolved? Or is that still sitting in the background?

 

[H&I]

I have been riding the trams all day, and I have made a few observations.

Firstly, the 30-minute frequency on each service is not ideal, to say the least. An urban tram system should operate on a turn-up-and-go basis, especially when many people are hopping on and off for short trips and using it as a walking accelerator.

Secondly, I am aware of staffing shortages and that Blackpool Transport is actively recruiting more people. However, I note that the system has a very high staffing requirement, with three members of staff per tram. I wonder whether switching to a buy-before-you-board system with penalty fares in place would be more efficient and lower running costs.

Thirdly, I note that the tramway is duplicated by the 1 and 1A bus routes. This seems wasteful, and I wonder if anyone has considered curtailing the bus routes so that they feed into the tramway rather than compete with it, or, on the other hand, shortening the hours of tramway service during weekdays when passenger numbers are low and getting everyone to use the bus instead.

Fourthly, the tramway has many slow sections, including sections outside areas of high pedestrian activity where the speed must not exceed 10 km/h.

Fifthly, it seems that the design of the extension is shortsighted as it precludes further extension of the tramway beyond North Station by placing the Holiday Inn hotel in front of the tram tracks.

Despite all the shortcomings, I wish Blackpool Transport all the best and for the extension to turn out to be a success.

 

[Harvey B]

Have the corrosion problems reported in the trams and garage last year been resolved? Or is that still sitting in the background?

What Trams and Which Garage?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

If bus franchising ever comes to Blackpool / Lancashire then you could look at reorganising the routes to dovetail into the tramway, but currently all that will happen if Blackpool Transport withdraws is another operator muscling in. The 1 / 1A bus does have a useful function, for when the tramway was modernised quite a few stops were removed, understandably, to speed up the service. Elderly residents, however, tend to go for the bus to avoid the longer walk to the tram.

It does seem a pity that the tramway cannot be extended beyond North Station - Victoria Hospital / Stanley Park would seem to be the obvious destination. Maybe the subway could be widened / deepened to take the tramway into the station forecourt and beyond?

 

[randyrippley]

What Trams and Which Garage?

The Star Gate shed and the new trams

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It does seem a pity that the tramway cannot be extended beyond North Station - Victoria Hospital / Stanley Park would seem to be the obvious destination. Maybe the subway could be widened / deepened to take the tramway into the station forecourt and beyond?

I am sure that the local bus routes to Blackpool Victoria hospital provide public transport access to it from a number of areas. Have you any ideas as to the cost implications and construction time disruption to areas en route of extending the tramway system from Blackpool North railway station to that hosptal?i

 

[ValleyLines142]

One other observation: trams are leaving stops early. Last night the 2241 Waterloo Road to Fleetwood departed at 2238. And with nothing until 2311, this is unacceptable.

Same with the 0945 North Station to Starr Gate. Scheduled to leave North Pier at 0950. I understand exiting the stop and crossing the junction with Dickson Road/Talbot Road, going along Talbot Road itself and crossing onto the prom has been factored into the timetable however it does not take five minutes to do so, and subsequently the tram departed North Pier at 0947 and was seen departing Tower at 0949 when it should only have been leaving North Pier at 0950 (even worse as North Pier is a timing point!).

I feel tomorrow will be interesting on Market Tuesday with this utterly shambolic timetable.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Even Jen on the Move has done a video detailing how the New timetable is going end up being a complete disaster

. I'm now of the opinion that they should either commit to running a full, reliable service during the summer, or just simply wind up the whole Tram system and dig it all up. No point even having a Tram system if it's only ever going to run an unreliable Skeleton service. It really does feel like this new timetable was made up on a whim at really short notice.

Thats being a tad over dramatic. yes there are many issues with the timetable to even hint at ripping it up is just a madness

 

[ValleyLines142]

1045 North Station to Starr Gate nicely loaded from North Station just now.

 

[[email protected].]

Do definitely agree that real time displays should really be in place.

 

[Harvey B]

Do definitely agree that real time displays should really be in place.

Displays are really a must. I wonder how many people will show up at Central Pier getting a Tram to the Pleasure Beach, expecting be a maximum wait of 15 minutes and not 25?

The new calling timetable from between North Pier and Start Gate is a diagrace.

Your could get away with not having departure boards on all Northbound Stops between North Pier and Fleetwood as they'll get a pretty consistent 15 minute service.

Thats being a tad over dramatic. yes there are many issues with the timetable to even hint at ripping it up is just a madness

In what way is pointing out the problems of the new timetable. classed as "Over Dramatic"?

 

[Blackpool boy]

Displays are really a must. I wonder how many people will show up at Central Pier getting a Tram to the Pleasure Beach, expecting be a maximum wait of 15 minutes and not 25?

The new calling timetable from between North Pier and Start Gate is a diagrace.

Your could get away with not having departure boards on all Northbound Stops between North Pier and Fleetwood as they'll get a pretty consistent 15 minute service.


In what way is pointing out the problems of the new timetable. classed as "Over Dramatic"?

Nno - you specifically stated they should rip up the whole system - which is very over dramatic. Some of us actually have to use it as part of our daily lives thanks,.

 

[Harvey B]

Nno - you specifically stated they should rip up the whole system - which is very over dramatic. Some of us actually have to use it as part of our daily lives thanks,

It'd probably cost more to close it and rip it all up (the entire route from Starr Gate to Fleetwood) then it probably would cost to run a full 10 minute timetable during every summer season for the next 4/5 years anyway.

it's just a shame how the present day Blackpool Council, as well as the management of Blackpool Transport is treating the Tramway as disposeable

What happens once a T2/T3 goes arrives at North Station? Does they keep on the same route and go back the way they came (I.e: comes in as a T2 from Starr Gate and heads back to Starr Gate), or Does a T2 from Starr Gate then become a T3 so it can Continue on to Fleetwood?

 

[geoffk]

What happens once a T2/T3 goes arrives at North Station? Does they keep on the same route and go back the way they came (I.e: comes in as a T2 from Starr Gate and heads back to Starr Gate), or Does a T2 from Starr Gate then become a T3 so it can Continue on to Fleetwood?

The film (post 256 above) suggests the T2 and T3 are interworked, i.e. they run Starr gate - North Station - Fleetwood.

 

[Harvey B]

The film (post 256 above) suggests the T2 and T3 are interworked, i.e. they run Starr gate - North Station - Fleetwood.

Seen a video from Walk on the Wild Side where a T2 goes to North Station, and then sets off again and returns to Starr Gate.

I wonder if some are interworked, and some aren't

 

[H&I]

The film (post 256 above) suggests the T2 and T3 are interworked, i.e. they run Starr gate - North Station - Fleetwood.

From what I could tell on Sunday, the first service of the day was interworked, but later services in the day were not.

 

[Bovverboy]

The film (post 256 above) suggests the T2 and T3 are interworked, i.e. they run Starr gate - North Station - Fleetwood.

Well perhaps it does, but it's a red herring I'm afraid. In the normal course of events routes T1, T2, and T3 all run independently of each other. The only time routes T2 and T3 interwork is at start and finish of service. The four trams scheduled to operate T3 start out by running as a T2 Starr Gate to North Station then go on to T3s for most of the rest of the day. At close of service only one T3 runs from North Station to Starr Gate as a T2, the other three run in from Fleetwood as a T1. This slightly elaborates what H&I said above.
Things do get a bit muddled in mid-evening, there may be limited interworking between T1 and T2, you would really need to observe to see what was going on.

EDIT: There is a small amount of interworking in mid-evening between routes T2 and T3. See posts 387, 388, and 392.

 

[Harvey B]

The first day is rarely exemplary of the reality. Teething problems happen, it's a part of life. That might be reflected by vloggers if they spent more time using the system and less racing to be the first to release their videos.

I wonder if this is the reason why BT are running the Trams on the current Skeleton timetable.

I wonder if there's going to be teething problems that'll prevent them from running a more increased frequency?

Either way, I don't expect this new timetable (which is basically just a rehash of the previous timetable but they managed to make it even worse) to last long, it seems like a Temporary stop gap while they get Tram crew trained/sort out the teething issues

 

[Silver Cobra]

What happens once a T2/T3 goes arrives at North Station? Does they keep on the same route and go back the way they came (I.e: comes in as a T2 from Starr Gate and heads back to Starr Gate), or Does a T2 from Starr Gate then become a T3 so it can Continue on to Fleetwood?

Having used the trams from North Station today I can say that, at least in the afternoon, the T2 and T3 stay on the same route. So a tram on the T2 that arrives into North Station departs back to Starr Gate on the T2, and likewise for the T3 to and from Fleetwood.

On my journey on the T3 this afternoon, I encountered the situation of the points failing to switch at the Talbot Road junction by North Pier, requiring the conductor to manually switch the points to allow the tram to head north. Overhearing the conversation between the driver and conductor, this isn't the first time this has happened since the service started yesterday.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I wonder if this is the reason why BT are running the Trams on the current Skeleton timetable.

I wonder if there's going to be teething problems that'll prevent them from running a more increased frequency?

Either way, I don't expect this new timetable (which is basically just a rehash of the previous timetable but they managed to make it even worse) to last long, it seems like a Temporary stop gap while they get Tram crew trained/sort out the teething issues

So essentially you’re prepared to create a mountain out of a molehill and make ridiculous, hyperbolic statements whilst knowing nothing and changing your position every five minutes.

How predictable.

From what I could tell on Sunday, the first service of the day was interworked, but later services in the day were not.

Services interwork at the start and end of service, but are otherwise operated by the same vehicles all day. Most connections ‘make’ at North Pier Station, so despite having to change vehicles it is an easy interchange.

Some T3/Fleetwood services did leave the ‘wrong’ way before reversing south to north at North Pier (southbound) due to some of the aforementioned teething troubles.

 

[Harvey B]

So essentially you’re prepared to create a mountain out of a molehill and make ridiculous, hyperbolic statements whilst knowing nothing and changing your position every five minutes.

Please explain how i'm changing my position every 5 minutes? I think the new timetable is just horrid and poorly thought out when it comes to summer demand along the prom.

If the problems aren't addressed within the next month then it's going to be a real headache trying to get anywhere

 

[Bovverboy]

Most connections ‘make’ at North Pier, so despite having to change vehicles it is an easy interchange.

I disagree that most connections 'make' at North Pier - some do, some don't.
1. Imagine someone wanting to travel from somewhere North of North Pier to somewhere South thereof. They could catch a direct tram (10 and 40 ex Fleetwood) or they could catch a North Station tram (25 and 55 ex Fleetwood) and alight at Talbot Square (arrive 10 or 40). Giving them ten minutes to stroll over to the North Pier stop to catch the North Station to Starr Gate tram, but saving only five minutes on waiting, from the outset, for the next Fleetwood to Starr Gate tram.
2. Someone wanting to travel from North of North Pier to North Station. Direct trams 25 and 55 from Fleetwood, indirect (i.e. catch Starr Gate tram) 10 and 40 from Fleetwood. Arrive North Pier 55 or 25, giving nine minutes to stroll over to Talbot Square for the North Station tram, but saving only six minutes over waiting, from the outset, for the next Fleetwood to North Station tram.
3. South of North Pier to North thereof. Direct trams 00 and 30 ex Starr Gate, indirect (i.e. catch North Station tram) 15 and 45. Arrive Talbot Square 34 or 04, leaving one minute to get from there to the North Pier Northbound stop, far too tight, and as seems to have been established, the ex-North Station trams are leaving North Pier early anyway. So the only remaining option, wait c.15 minutes for the next Starr Gate to Fleetwood tram, which could have been waited for at the outset.
4. South of North Pier to North Station, direct trams 15 and 45 ex Starr Gate, indirect (i.e. catch Fleetwood tram) 00 and 30. Arrive North Pier 19 or 49, comfortably missing the Fleetwood to North Station tram (10 and 40 at Talbot Square). So the only remaining option, stroll over to the Talbot Square stop and wait c.15 minutes for the next Starr Gate to North Station tram, which could have been waited for at the outset.
Conclusion: If you miss your intended tram, or simply turn up on spec, it's probably worth catching the next tram to arrive, but you would do better to plan the journey better from the outset.