Blackpool Trams News

[Tramfan]

Going to 'Tram Sunday' in Fleetwood. (Classic road vehicles music etc)
Just checked timetable -
- All trams go via Blackpool North!! Both directions.
No trams past Fisherman's Walk till 6pm.
An interesting experiment.
15 minute service through morning and afternoon.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. The more I look at it, the more I think that's how they should have launched the service. North Station gets a 15 minute frequency north and south, and although those passengers wishing to travel direct between north shore and tower/central pier/pleasure beach lose in terms of time to the station and back, maybe it's better than having to wait up to 30 mins for a tram. Plus passenger loadings will be evenly spread.

I still maintain that the base frequency needs to be better, but it'll be very interesting to find out how the service on that day works

 

[Harvey B]

It takes 21 minutes in each direction to Little Bispham.

My bad. I thought you said North Station to Fleetwood. So I wondered why it seemed odd

The site doesnt need to be fenced off nor gated around the loop there good stock management can work if you do it properly and in a well thought out way.

These are blockers that others seem to think get in the way but believe me they dont

I disagree. Much better to have a completely new Depot built from scratch or to extend the current one at Starr Gate if an order for 3 or more Trams is placed.

You clearly aren't thinking that there's a risk if leaving Trams out in the open so storing them on the loops at Starr Gate, Pleasure Beach and Little Bispham.

There's enough room to build a couple if small Stabling Sheds just off the loops at Pleasure Beach and Little Bispham, while Larger Sheds could be built at Thornton Gate and Fleetwood.

I'm pretty sure that a couple of roads at Rigby Road could be accomdated for Flexity stabling once the works there are complete

Going to 'Tram Sunday' in Fleetwood. (Classic road vehicles music etc)
Just checked timetable -
- All trams go via Blackpool North!! Both directions.
No trams past Fisherman's Walk till 6pm.
An interesting experiment.
15 minute service through morning and afternoon.

Seems like clowns is in charge of this change have decided that this timetable should only be in place for one day before reverting back to the Circus Service on Monday.

A ridiculous idea when Monday is the official start of the 6 week Holidays

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. The more I look at it, the more I think that's how they should have launched the service. North Station gets a 15 minute frequency north and south, and although those passengers wishing to travel direct between north shore and tower/central pier/pleasure beach lose in terms of time to the station and back, maybe it's better than having to wait up to 30 mins for a tram. Plus passenger loadings will be evenly spread.

I still maintain that the base frequency needs to be better, but it'll be very interesting to find out how the service on that day works

Sadly, it's only for one day and the Circus Timetable is back on Monday (which is odd considering that it's the official start of the School Holidays).

I do think the 15 minute through Service via North Station should be the Bare Minimum though. During the summer and Illuminations, this could be supplemented with a 15 (or 30) minute frequency between Pleasure Beach and Bispham

 

[Bovverboy]

I answered the survey and have thought on what BT could do, they could run the T1, T2 & T3 on every 20 minutes so that there is every 10 minutes between Fleetwood - North Pier and between Tower - Starr Gate.

I think that was the original plan. It's why the additional two trams were considered necessary, a fleet of sixteen wouldn't have been adequate for a PVR of fifteen.

 

[Harvey B]

I think that was the original plan. It's why the additional two trams were considered necessary, a fleet of sixteen wouldn't have been adequate for a PVR of fifteen.

What does PVR mean?

 

[Tramfan]

What does PVR mean?

Peak vehicle requirement - the maximum amount of vehicles required to operate the timetable

 

[Mal]

Peak Vehicle Requirement.

 

[Bovverboy]

Going to 'Tram Sunday' in Fleetwood. (Classic road vehicles music etc)
Just checked timetable -
- All trams go via Blackpool North!! Both directions.
No trams past Fisherman's Walk till 6pm.
An interesting experiment.

Perhaps BT has been scrutinizing the response to their survey, but the c.7 minutes wait at North Station (both directions) is going to be painful.

15 minute service through morning and afternoon.

After the 1800 ex Starr Gate the headway stretches to 20 minutes, after 2000 ex Starr Gate it stretches again to 30 minutes.

Little quirks.
1) The first tram to extend to Fleetwood Ferry, the 1700 ex Starr Gate, comes back from Fisherman's Wharf 15 minutes later than it would have done had it terminated there, so there is at that point a 30 minute gap behind the previous tram.
2) The 2300 ex Starr Gate skips North Station and (apparently) comes back from Fleetwood out of service.
3) The 2315 ex Starr Gate (note that this is 15 minutes later than the usual last tram) also skips North Station and (apparently) comes back from Fleetwood out of service.
Apart from the two journeys which apparently return from Fleetwood out of service, all other journeys ex Fleetwood divert via North Station, this extends to much later than trams normally serve North Station, and much later than the two journeys which skip North Station in the opposite direction.
The two Northbound journeys which skip North Station are also accelerated by seven minutes over the usual T1 schedule, i.e. returning to the schedule which prevailed before the NS extension opened.

 

[Harvey B]

Perhaps BT has been scrutinizing the response to their survey, but the c.7 minutes wait at North Station (both directions) is going to be painful.


After the 1800 ex Starr Gate the headway stretches to 20 minutes, after 2000 ex Starr Gate it stretches again to 30 minutes.

Still seems like a more reasonable timetable than the circus timetable that was introduced when the NS extension opened

Going to 'Tram Sunday' in Fleetwood. (Classic road vehicles music etc)
Just checked timetable -
- All trams go via Blackpool North!! Both directions.
No trams past Fisherman's Walk till 6pm.
An interesting experiment.
15 minute service through morning and afternoon.

If they were fully capable of running a standard 15 minute frequency from Starr Gate to Fleetwood Via North Station yesterday, then why couldn't this have been the timetable from the launch of the extension?

 

[Towers]

Was this a full Flexity service? No Balloon ‘fillers’ etc? Being ‘Tram Sunday’ that might have been a possibility perhaps?

 

[cool110]

Was this a full Flexity service? No Balloon ‘fillers’ etc? Being ‘Tram Sunday’ that might have been a possibility perhaps?

The Balloons where busy with the heritage operation, 2 running the full tour route with a 3rd parked at Fleetwood as a remote office/shop. Bolton 66 was doing the normal Pleasure Beach - Bispham mini-tour, and a Boat was doing Fisherman's walk - Rossall Beach/Thornton Gate.

 

[davehsug]

Is there any news on how the through service was received by passengers on Sunday?

 

[Harvey B]

Is there any news on how the through service was received by passengers on Sunday?

Seconded. I'd like to know too

 

[[email protected].]

I went to Blackpool/Fleetwood on Sunday for tram Sunday.

One tram I caught from Fleetwood turned up to NS to announce 1st stop North Pier on arrival at NS, it announced Tower.

Generally, I felt all onboard staff were moaning that the service should be Starr Gate, North Station and Fleetwood, One conductor did tell me there is a review expected Sept regarding the timetable.

 

[Blackpool boy]

I disagree. Much better to have a completely new Depot built from scratch or to extend the current one at Starr Gate if an order for 3 or more Trams is placed.

Sigh, A new depot doesnt need to be built at all and why such a small order of trams ( again)

You clearly aren't thinking that there's a risk if leaving Trams out in the open so storing them on the loops at Starr Gate, Pleasure Beach and Little Bispham.

The loop at Star gate is perfectly adequate to store trams - no one mentioned storing them anywhere else but you.

There's enough room to build a couple if small Stabling Sheds just off the loops at Pleasure Beach and Little Bispham, while Larger Sheds could be built at Thornton Gate and Fleetwood.

Why spend money on the extras stabling sheds and the staffing needed for them when they can just use the area around star gate?

I'm pretty sure that a couple of roads at Rigby Road could be accomdated for Flexity stabling once the works there are complete

probably once the works are complete - but they never will be if you are spending the money on stabling sheds and staffing for those sheds eleswhere

 

[Harvey B]

Sigh, A new depot doesnt need to be built at all

Why Doesn't a new Depot need to be built? Let's assume they order an additional 10 (Ten) Trams. Where would you store the other 8 (Eight)?

and why such a small order of trams ( again)

How many extra Trams do you think should be ordered?

How many times do you need to be told that the current Depot at Starr Gate can only hold a maximum of 20 (Twenty) Trams. (They only have 2 (Two) more spaces left to fill). Any order that is 3 (Three) Trams or more would require a Completely new depot to be built

The loop at Star gate is perfectly adequate to store trams - no one mentioned storing them anywhere else but you.

I beg to differ. How is it? It's open to the Natural Elements and It's not secure either so It's subject to Vandlism.

You can also fit maybe 2 or 3 Trams on there as a Maximum so You'd have to think about other places if they were ordering a large amount of Trams (Let's say they order 10 (ten) Trams)

Why spend money on the extras stabling sheds and the staffing needed for them when they can just use the area around star gate?

Why would they need to Staff the extra Depot's if they're only used for Stabling purposes?

probably once the works are complete - but they never will be if you are spending the money on stabling sheds and staffing for those sheds eleswhere

Potentially because Rigby Road is funded by the Heritage Budget (Which rely's on Public Donations)

 

[Bovverboy]

Why would they need to Staff the extra Depot's if they're only used for Stabling purposes?

Security. Trams are awfully expensive pieces of kit.

 

[Mal]

Security. Trams are awfully expensive pieces of kit.

Exactly. Before Edinburghs extension to Newhaven opened someone mentioned that trams could be left at Newhaven overnight! Think of the potential for vandalism! That idea was quickly killed off and all late night trams returned to Gogarburn Depot in revenue service. Now I'm thinking why should trams from Fleetwood go back to Starr Gate - 11 miles! - out of service when there is a chance of picking up passengers on the way? Seems like a waste to me.

 

[Harvey B]

Security. Trams are awfully expensive pieces of kit.

Exactly. Before Edinburghs extension to Newhaven opened someone mentioned that trams could be left at Newhaven overnight! Think of the potential for vandalism! That idea was quickly killed off and all late night trams returned to Gogarburn Depot in revenue service.

The point is: Blackpool Boy thinks that one of the issues for poor service is the lack of Trams (I Personally think it's far from the issue, especially when only 11 Trams required for service at the minute and the remaining 7 Trams are sitting in Starr Gate Depot everyday doing nothing). The problem is, Starr Gate can only hold a maximum of 20 Trams meaning they can only order a Maximum of 2 more Trams.

Let's say in a Hypothetical Scenario that 10 more Trams are to be ordered sometime soon. They'd either need to build a Secondary Depot to store 8 of the additional Trams or they'd need to build a large extension onto the existing depot at Starr Gate to accommodate an extra 8 Trams.

Now I'm thinking why should trams from Fleetwood go back to Starr Gate - 11 miles! - out of service when there is a chance of picking up passengers on the way? Seems like a waste to me.

Is that a real thing where they run empty back to Starr Gate? I thought they went back in Service and terminated back at Starr Gate? Doesn't make sense for the Trams to run empty imho

 

[cool110]

Now I'm thinking why should trams from Fleetwood go back to Starr Gate - 11 miles! - out of service when there is a chance of picking up passengers on the way? Seems like a waste to me.

Is that a real thing where they run empty back to Starr Gate? I thought they went back in Service and terminated back at Starr Gate? Doesn't make sense for the Trams to run empty imho

They don't, the last Northbound T1 and T3 departures are both 2300. Those then form the last pair of Southbound T1s at 2355 and 0010.

 

[Mal]

Perhaps BT has been scrutinizing the response to their survey, but the c.7 minutes wait at North Station (both directions) is going to be painful.


After the 1800 ex Starr Gate the headway stretches to 20 minutes, after 2000 ex Starr Gate it stretches again to 30 minutes.

Little quirks.
1) The first tram to extend to Fleetwood Ferry, the 1700 ex Starr Gate, comes back from Fisherman's Wharf 15 minutes later than it would have done had it terminated there, so there is at that point a 30 minute gap behind the previous tram.
2) The 2300 ex Starr Gate skips North Station and (apparently) comes back from Fleetwood out of service.
3) The 2315 ex Starr Gate (note that this is 15 minutes later than the usual last tram) also skips North Station and (apparently) comes back from Fleetwood out of service.
Apart from the two journeys which apparently return from Fleetwood out of service, all other journeys ex Fleetwood divert via North Station, this extends to much later than trams normally serve North Station, and much later than the two journeys which skip North Station in the opposite direction.

(Answering Harvey B) There is the original post where I got my information from. This is an incredible waste of resources on the part of Blackpool Transport. They really seem to have made a hell of a mess of this timetable and should get it sorted as soon as possible otherwise folk will desrt the tram and find other more reliable ways of getting to their destination.

 

[Tramfan]

The post you were quoting from was referring to the 1 day only timetable they operated on Sunday for the Fleetwood Transport Festival. It is unlikely that the trams in question ran empty all the way back from Fleetwood, more likely just not showing on the timetable for some reason - wouldn't be the first time that had happened. Blackpool Transport rarely if ever run trams out of service on a planned basis, especially since the upgrade, but in theory it can be useful if it means a later journey can operate and still be within the driver diagrams/roster (an empty run can obviously have accelerated running times).

 

[Bovverboy]

(Answering Harvey B) There is the original post where I got my information from. This is an incredible waste of resources on the part of Blackpool Transport. They really seem to have made a hell of a mess of this timetable and should get it sorted as soon as possible otherwise folk will desrt the tram and find other more reliable ways of getting to their destination.

Please note, the above post was Mal's own, rather than mine, which might have been the deduction. To see my own post, click on the icon next to 'Bovverboy said' in post 440, or read it directly in post 427.

I still can't really work out what goes on with the evening timetable... The extra T2 Starr Gate to North Station at 21:25 seems to be worked by a new tram from the Depot

It's hard to see how else it could be worked.

Actually, it isn't, the 2125 could be covered by the 2115 arrival ex Fleetwood T1, then the 2130 Fleetwood could use a tram from depot. But that, apparently, is not what happens, the 2115 arrival works the 2130 departure, as per the normal cycle. The '2125' comes out of depot, but instead of going into the departure platform, heads straight off towards Harrow Place. I can only guess that it picks up service from there.
The foregoing is what prevailed last night, Friday 26/7/24.

Then, because you have a random 43 minute gap in T2 North Station to Starr Gate services between 20:45 and 21:28, there is no arrival at Starr Gate to work the 21:45 T2 Starr Gate to North Station, so this appears to be another extra tram from the Depot.

It is indeed another tram from depot. Like the '2125', it heads off directly towards Harrow Place. Again, this is what prevailed last night, the only difference being that the '2145' showed 'T2 North Station' as it came out of depot, whereas the '2125' showed blank screens until it was out of sight.
It makes me wonder what happens in a morning - you know, when eleven trams come out of depot to take up all day service. Do they head off towards Harrow Place?

 

[Tramfan]

Please note, the above post was Mal's own, rather than mine, which might have been the deduction. To see my own post, click on the icon next to 'Bovverboy said' in post 440, or read it directly in post 427.




Actually, it isn't, the 2125 could be covered by the 2115 arrival ex Fleetwood T1, then the 2130 Fleetwood could use a tram from depot. But that, apparently, is not what happens, the 2115 arrival works the 2130 departure, as per the normal cycle. The '2125' comes out of depot, but instead of going into the departure platform, heads straight off towards Harrow Place. I can only guess that it picks up service from there.
The foregoing is what prevailed last night, Friday 26/7/24.


It is indeed another tram from depot. Like the '2125', it heads off directly towards Harrow Place. Again, this is what prevailed last night, the only difference being that the '2145' showed 'T2 North Station' as it came out of depot, whereas the '2125' showed blank screens until it was out of sight.
It makes me wonder what happens in a morning - you know, when eleven trams come out of depot to take up all day service. Do they head off towards Harrow Place?

The tram route cards have been provided through a freedom of information request, and do show that there's a Route F that works the 06:30 Starr Gate to Fleetwood, and 07:40 return (arriving 08:45) and then rather than work the 09:00 Starr Gate to Fleetwood it goes into the Depot and Route A comes out of the Depot to work the 09:00.

In the evenings there a Route FF that leaves the Depot at 21:38 and works the 21:45 T2 from Starr Gate, and 22:15 return from North Station before returning to Depot, and a Route M that leaves the Depot at 21:18 to work the 21:25 T2, then the 22:00 T3 and 22:55 T1.

This confirms that although the main service requires 11 trams, up to 14 can be used throughout the day (from my observations the tram working Route F sometimes doesn't run into the Depot and just becomes Route A). It also means for a brief period in the 21:00 hour there are 13 trams in service at the same time... I still cannot fathom why the frequency on the T2 service increases between 21:28 and 22:28.

Link to the freedom of information request is below - note that there appear to be multiple copies of the same route cards, some which seem to be an earlier version of the timetable, and some contain wording not to wait out time at North Pier, which also seems bizarre, but explains why trams keep leaving North Pier up to 4 mins early!

Tram running number and diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Blackpool Transport Services Limited

Is it possible to have the above information about tram running number and diagrams as I am very interested in Blackpool tramway Yours faithfully, Chris Joines

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[Bovverboy]

Thanks for that link, Tramfan. One thing it shows (which I hadn't guessed) is that three of the four trams which spend most of their day on T3s start out by doing a round trip on T1, before doing an 'extra' journey (i.e. one which is additional to the standard cycle) to NS as a T2, before finally going on to T3s. So those two trams in the course of their day operate on all three routes, as does tram 'M', which does a one-way journey on all routes, and nothing else.
It's logical, of course, to use trams which have already done a T1 as start-ups for T3s (it saves ten of the fifteen minutes layover at Starr Gate), but the same logic doesn't prevail at 2125/2130.

The tram route cards have been provided through a freedom of information request, and do show that there's a Route F that works the 06:30 Starr Gate to Fleetwood, and 07:40 return (arriving 08:45) and then rather than work the 09:00 Starr Gate to Fleetwood it goes into the Depot and Route A comes out of the Depot to work the 09:00.

Bearing in mind what I've posted above, I would say that at that time of morning the normal routine is T1 > T2 > T3, but of course it doesn't happen at 0850 because there's an 0825 ex-Fleetwood T3 which is available to work the 0930 ex-NS return. I can't help but think that this is something to do with the odd pattern at 0845/0900, it may have been a mistake.

the main service requires 11 trams, up to 14 can be used throughout the day (from my observations the tram working Route F sometimes doesn't run into the Depot and just becomes Route A).

Have you actually observed tram F running into depot and being replaced by another? I presume you have, perhaps to confirm.

It also means for a brief period in the 21:00 hour there are 13 trams in service at the same time

It's certainly brief (2145 to 2153), and that's if the 2145 picks up service at SG (which it doesn't seem to do) and the '2153' arrives on time (last night it arrived at 2149).

I still cannot fathom why the frequency on the T2 service increases between 21:28 and 22:28.

There's actually only one journey in each direction which could be said to be additional to the standard timetable, 2125 SG - NS and 2158 NS - SG. Tram FF only needs to come out of depot at 2138 to cover for tram D's extended layover at NS (2109 - 2130). Though, like yourself, I can't really see the need for the sudden timetable upset.

The link you've posted is coming up, for me, quite jumbled (that's on my laptop, it isn't coming up at all on my mobile), I don't know whether or not my laptop is doing it, or whether it's a deliberate jumble through being the result of an FOI request.

 

[Whisky Papa]

...
The link you've posted is coming up, for me, quite jumbled (that's on my laptop, it isn't coming up at all on my mobile), I don't know whether or not my laptop is doing it, or whether it's a deliberate jumble through being the result of an FOI request.

The initial whatdotheyknow.com webpage or the eventual diagrams? I found using the 'download' option on the webpage for the diagrams gave a readable result on my laptop, but the 'view as HTML' was all over the place.

 

[Bovverboy]

I found using the 'download' option on the webpage for the diagrams gave a readable result on my laptop, but the 'view as HTML' was all over the place.

I see what you mean. I should have tried that!

 

[DGP]

I downloaded the XML files of these diagrams directly from Blackpool Transport's website (look under 'Our Data') and tried to use an App that I wrote to produce a nice easily viewable document. It hasn't quite worked since the last journey on Block 'I' leaves Fleetwood Ferry after midnight and so shows up on the following day's page (for instance, the last Sunday only departure @ 24:17 actually shows up as a Monday only journey @ 00:17) and I never try to second-guess or manually "correct" information that any Transport operator provides. I just try to transcribe the information "as is" and hopefully don't introduce any errors. However, you should get the gist of the 15 distinct blocks that are operated on a daily basis. And as others have pointed out, that doesn't mean a PVR of 15 since there are a couple of instances where one tram could operate multiple blocks.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I downloaded the XML files of these diagrams directly from Blackpool Transport's website (look under 'Our Data') and tried to use an App that I wrote to produce a nice easily viewable document. It hasn't quite worked since the last journey on Block 'I' leaves Fleetwood Ferry after midnight and so shows up on the following day's page (for instance, the last Sunday only departure @ 24:17 actually shows up as a Monday only journey @ 00:17) and I never try to second-guess or manually "correct" information that any Transport operator provides. I just try to transcribe the information "as is" and hopefully don't introduce any errors. However, you should get the gist of the 15 distinct blocks that are operated on a daily basis. And as others have pointed out, that doesn't mean a PVR of 15 since there are a couple of instances where one tram could operate multiple blocks.

That's very neatly done, despite the issue you raise of the late night / early morning journeys. I did download the files myself after seeing your post, and succeeded only in crashing my spreadsheet!

Incidentally, I'm curious as to why you chose the use of 'blocks' rather than diagrams or workings/runnings/boards, which would be more expected in the rail or bus industries respectively?

 

[DGP]

Incidentally, I'm curious as to why you chose the use of 'blocks' rather than diagrams or workings/runnings/boards, which would be more expected in the rail or bus industries respectively?

Well yes, I would call them diagrams or running boards as well, but those data files call them Blocks so that's the terminology I use in my App.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Well yes, I would call them diagrams or running boards as well, but those data files call them Blocks so that's the terminology I use in my App.

Right, thanks - obviously I didn't get that far into them!