Booked train only

[trainophile]

Further to this thread...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86410

which I didn't want to post on again as it would just show as addition to my previous post, and probably remain out of sight(?)...

I have now checked my tickets for Sunday 21st, and there is only one reservation coupon, for Hereford to Crewe. The route is "AP Shrewsbury", validity "booked train [singular] only".

Just wondering whether this negates the requirement to take the ATW Chester train from Crewe, or could I jump on the LM to Liverpool South Parkway, even though that wasn't the itinerary on my original booking?

Don't know how the guard on the LM would know what route had been booked, unless there's reservation coupons for every service that day. If I present to him/her a journey ticket saying Hereford to Southport, issued as 02 coupons, route AP Shrewsbury, I'll have effectively covered all the aspects of the ticket, as there's no way to tell what train I should be on once I've reached Crewe.

I probably will go via Chester, for one reason having posted this I'll be identifiable by my specific 'from-to' ticket, but for future reference what's the rule when there is no coupon for a particular leg of a journey on an Advance ticket?

 

[yorkie]

The conditions of Advance tickets are that you must take "appropriate" connecting trains. If the guard agrees that your choice of train is appropriate, you won't have a problem.

However bear in mind there is an instruction in The Manual stating that alternative services are allowed, providing the train is "not reserveable", this is stated in the section 'Advance Fare FAQs' and is not published anywhere publicly available by the rail industry (though we have received permission to publish it in our Guide to Fares & Ticketing).

 

[trainophile]

Thanks yorkie. Seems the trick is to know which services are reservable then.

I did a similar thing today actually, returning from Southport to Hereford I got myself to South Parkway in time for the 1344 to Crewe, when my "booked train" was actually the 1415. Again I had no reservation coupon for this part of my journey. Ticket wasn't checked today, so I don't know whether I'd have been challenged. I've done this several times in the past and no-one has ever told me I'm wrong, although on almost every occasion I have asked the TM before boarding at Crewe. But this is just taking a differently timed train, not a completely different route/TOC, which is why I'm not so comfortable about doing it this way.

I could always ask the TM on the LM - it comes in before I need to go for the Chester train. He might wonder why on earth I'm asking though, and there's never really long enough to go into details when he's trying to get his train away.

 

[bb21]

I could always ask the TM on the LM - it comes in before I need to go for the Chester train. He might wonder why on earth I'm asking though, and there's never really long enough to go into details when he's trying to get his train away.

Just show him the ticket, say you have an Advance but no reserved coupon from thereon, and ask him if you can use his train. I doubt he would say no tbh. Most railway staff do use common sense and can be reasonable.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks bb21, concise and to-the-point, no lengthy explanations needed . I'm tempted to give it a go now, having resigned myself to the James Street complications. If it wasn't for the heatwave I wouldn't mind a stroll through Liverpool, but really don't fancy it in the current conditions.

 

[dvboy]

You haven't said what time you're travelling but if you were leaving Hereford at 1036, the suggested route on NRE is to change at Liverpool South Parkway, and that's on an Advance. Other journeys that day suggest walking from Lime St to Central to then get the train to Moorfields (presumably this is because the connecting train does not stop at South Parkway), or walking from James Street as oer your itinerary. It's probably giving those options because it's significantly quicker.

If it's valid on the journey starting at 1036, I don't see why it would be a problem at any other time.

If you preference to "Include interchange" South Parkway, you can still get an advance on the 1036 journey, and in fact NRE shows further advances on journeys starting Hereford at 1150 and 1254, which it doesn't if you don't specify the interchange!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....If it's valid on the journey starting at 1036, I don't see why it would be a problem at any other time.....

Just because one train is valid, it doesn't necessarily mean all the others are, however, having had a look at London Midland's own timetable, it seems that none of their Birmingham-Liverpool services are reservable on a Sunday and so the Op should have no problems using those services.

 

[AshValePsngr]

The conditions of Advance tickets are that you must take "appropriate" connecting trains. If the guard agrees that your choice of train is appropriate, you won't have a problem.

However bear in mind there is an instruction in The Manual stating that alternative services are allowed, providing the train is "not reserveable", this is stated in the section 'Advance Fare FAQs' and is not published anywhere publicly available by the rail industry (though we have received permission to publish it in our Guide to Fares & Ticketing).

I'm interested in how rules can be enforced that the customer has not agreed to as part of the conditions of carriage, and has no way of accessing or knowing. If a customer travelled on a reservable train for a connection to the main part of their journey, what could be the outcome?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm interested in how rules can be enforced that the customer has not agreed to as part of the conditions of carriage, and has no way of accessing or knowing. If a customer travelled on a reservable train for a connection to the main part of their journey, what could be the outcome?

This is why the ticket says "booked train only" on it and why conditions cards are given out (or you tick the little tick box for online purchases). Most people know what trains they booked on and if they are unsure they will ask. Most of those people will stick to the trains they booked on in preference to thinking they might 'get caught out' on another (even if they wouldn't be).

If the passenger booked to travel on a non-reservable train, the passenger would not have a reservation for it.

If the passenger booked to travel on a reservable train, the passenger would have a reservation for it.

So, if the passenger travels on a reservable train without a reservation, the guard/train manager will instantly know the passenger is not booked on that service.

If it is clear they are not on the correct service, officially, they would be required to buy a new ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I'm interested in how rules can be enforced that the customer has not agreed to as part of the conditions of carriage, and has no way of accessing or knowing. If a customer travelled on a reservable train for a connection to the main part of their journey, what could be the outcome?

The outcome would vary.

For example London - Garforth Route: EC & Connections. Suggested service Northern, customer takes TPE. Outcome: ticket accepted.

Another example may be: Birmingham - Inverness. Virgin & Connections. Suggested service Scotrail, customer takes the Highland Chieftain from Perth. Possible outcome: issue of new EC ticket from Perth.

And to give another example: Stevenage to Bristol, suggested service FCC. Customer takes EC. Outcome: ticket accepted.

 

[daniel78]

The outcome would vary.

For example London - Garforth Route: EC & Connections. Suggested service Northern, customer takes TPE. Outcome: ticket accepted.

Another example....... .

Thanks for reading my mind, I was about to ask about that exact example, thanks to the advice you already gave me on travelling Glasgow to Leeds

 

[Deerfold]

And then there's Leeds to London via Sheffield.

The booking sites will give you a Northern train between Leeds and Sheffield even where there's an XC service which leaves Leeds later and gets to Sheffield sooner which sounds a reasonable one to get.

I'm led to believe XC take exception to people using their service.

Particularly annoying when you've a 1st class ticket.

 

[trainophile]

Just because one train is valid, it doesn't necessarily mean all the others are, however, having had a look at London Midland's own timetable, it seems that none of their Birmingham-Liverpool services are reservable on a Sunday and so the Op should have no problems using those services.

That's excellent news, thank you so much for checking.

It begs the question as to why my (with senior railcard) cheapest Advance on a Sunday is £9.90 going HFD-CRE-CTR-MRF-SOP or HFD-MAN-SOP, but the cheapest for HFD-CRE-LPY-SOP is £14.50, while on a weekday or Saturday that same route can be obtained for £9.90. I guess that's what's technically known as an anomaly :? .

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I positioned myself towards where the back of the train would pull up at Crewe, (although I've been caught before now when the guard turns out to be at the front). On this occasion he appeared from the rear cab so I trotted over and asked him if I could get this train as I don't have a reservation. He asked to see my ticket "to make sure you're on the right train for where you want to go", and when I showed it to him he said that's fine, so I got on .

Still not sure whether I can take that as ongoing authorisation to use that route when I've booked a 'via Chester' ticket, and as he didn't come through the train checking tickets I didn't have the opportunity to ask. Anyway it worked well today, and saved me half an hour's journey time and a lot of hassle in Liverpool.

ETA Good to see that posting a "reply" to a thread where you were also the last poster does bump the thread back to the top of the board. I needn't have started a separate thread after all, sorry.

 

[34D]

And then there's Leeds to London via Sheffield.

The booking sites will give you a Northern train between Leeds and Sheffield even where there's an XC service which leaves Leeds later and gets to Sheffield sooner which sounds a reasonable one to get.

I'm led to believe XC take exception to people using their service.

Particularly annoying when you've a 1st class ticket.

There's a question there to discuss further.... surely a first class leeds-sheffield-st panc passenger can use first between leeds and sheffield?

 

[yorkie]

There's a question there to discuss further.... surely a first class leeds-sheffield-st panc passenger can use first between leeds and sheffield?

If the train conveys First Class accommodation, of course they can. That's not the issue at all.

 

[Deerfold]

There's a question there to discuss further.... surely a first class leeds-sheffield-st panc passenger can use first between leeds and sheffield?

You're entitled to use first, you're just not entitled to use the service that conveys first class accommodation. Though where that's detailed is sketchy.

I used to do that route every couple of months but didn't ever try getting XC.

Haven't done it for a while now though.