Bought ticket with family railcard not realising it had expired

[bexyg]

New here so thanks in advance… my issue is as the title reads.
I booked a train fare for me and my daughter to travel a 20 min journey to collect my car. I allocated the friends and family card (not thinking anything of this) I have the app on my phone. I travel the train solo everyday to work and back and haven’t used the friends and family for some time but certainly didn’t think it had expired.
The ticket cost was £4.10 with friends and family allocated.
The train inspector asked for my ticket and I showed her … she asked to see my friend and family pass which I showed her… at this point she said it had expired.
I was shocked and apologised and asked what the train fare should have been…she said £5.10.
There and then I offered to buy another ticket or pay the difference - either as it was a genuine mistake but she declined this offer and told me I’d hear from the fines department.
Sure enough I heard from them and have now been threatened with court.
I am prepared to take this to court and explain my actions to the judge. Would this country seriously give me a criminal record over £1?
A loyal hard working British citizen who takes the train everyday to work issued a criminal record over £1 …. Would this actually happen?
I know I applied an error to my ticket but I bought a ticket … where is the justice for a simple error?
The court form is asking all sorts of financial questions about my income and my wife’s - my wife is not prepared to answer these.

Questions -
Has anyone challenged this sort of situation in court before?
Can you explain your experience?
What was the outcome?
Did you complete all the interrogation into your financial affairs?

Any help will be appreciated …. I obviously now know my friends and family had expired and I should have checked this 1st before allocating it to the ticket …

 

[methecooldude]

New here so thanks in advance… my issue is as the title reads.
I booked a train fare for me and my daughter to travel a 20 min journey to collect my car. I allocated the friends and family card (not thinking anything of this) I have the app on my phone. I travel the train solo everyday to work and back and haven’t used the friends and family for some time but certainly didn’t think it had expired.
The ticket cost was £4.10 with friends and family allocated.
The train inspector asked for my ticket and I showed her … she asked to see my friend and family pass which I showed her… at this point she said it had expired.
I was shocked and apologised and asked what the train fare should have been…she said £5.10.
There and then I offered to buy another ticket or pay the difference - either as it was a genuine mistake but she declined this offer and told me I’d hear from the fines department.
Sure enough I heard from them and have now been threatened with court.
I am prepared to take this to court and explain my actions to the judge. Would this country seriously give me a criminal record over £1?
A loyal hard working British citizen who takes the train everyday to work issued a criminal record over £1 …. Would this actually happen?
I know I applied an error to my ticket but I bought a ticket … where is the justice for a simple error?
The court form is asking all sorts of financial questions about my income and my wife’s - my wife is not prepared to answer these.

Questions -
Has anyone challenged this sort of situation in court before?
Can you explain your experience?
What was the outcome?
Did you complete all the interrogation into your financial affairs?

Any help will be appreciated …. I obviously now know my friends and family had expired and I should have checked this 1st before allocating it to the ticket …

We need some more info:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

 

[Brissle Girl]

As per the post above, please post copies of the correspondence you have received. It is usual to be asked for your side of the story, and provided you respond in an apologetic manner then an out of court settlement is likely to be offered (one exception is TfL which usually prosecutes).

If it does go to court then you will be found guilty as unfortunately you did not have a valid ticket. That’s all that matters in these situations. Unfair maybe, but hopefully it won’t come to that.

 

[bexyg]

I travelled from Ulverston to barrow in furness on a Sunday around 10 months ago now

No changes a direct train through that’s approx 20/25 mins

I presented my tickets showing clearly the one way ticket details from Ulverston to barrow in furness. I didn’t need a return as I was collecting my car. It was an adult fare and child fare ticket with a friends and family allocation - it was only me and my daughter travelling.

The lady inspector who was working had seen me many times on the train as I get the same route train everyday to work so she is regularly on board the same working - therefore she knows I am a true paying train traveller and don’t fare dodge. She asked me to present my ticket - I did so then she asked me for my friends and family pass - I presented this and then she told me it had expired. At this point I was shocked - she knew I was and she knew I wouldn’t have allocated it if I had known it had expired. I offered there and then to buy more tickets or pay the difference what ever it is she needed me to do. She refused any offer of this and advised me I would hear from the rail network about a fine. I asked then what does that mean and she said take it up with them and walked off.

I received a letter through the post where she had stated I had not presented or bought a ticket - this is false. I appealed they did not accept.

I have had a further letter now summonsing me to court for travelling on a railway and non payment of a ticket.

The fine is £150

I am happy to pay the fare difference or a new ticket cost plus a slight admin fee. I think it is unfair to threaten me with court and a criminal record.

 

[furlong]

10 months ago? Then the paperwork is VERY important as there is a 6 month deadline involved.
You need two things.
What date did this happen?
What date was the court informed? This date might precede the date of the letter from the court, but it is very important that you check it was not later than 6 months from the incident.

 

[bexyg]

Brilliant Thankyou I’ll check all the paperwork and upload anything I have tomorrow for you guys to take a look at!

 

[furlong]

As asked above, it would be helpful if you can attach copies of all the paperwork with reference numbers, names etc. covered up.
- E.g. As well as the questions above, we'd like to see exactly what is alleged on the summons etc.

 

[bexyg]

Of course Thankyou for all your help so far… I will upload it tomorrow

 

[furlong]

You might find the crucial date is not on the paperwork, and you might have to contact the court to obtain it - they will be well aware of the 6 month limit but sometimes errors do slip through the system unnoticed. If your appeal correspondence took you beyond 6 months then it's certainly necessary to check they weren't out-of-time to begin the proceedings.

 

[ikcdab]

I don't doubt that for you it was a genuine mistake. However, it you read back through the posts on this forum you will find very many cases where people also claim genuine mistakes when they were actually evading fares. The railway company has no way of knowing which is which and so all such cases are persued. It is your responsibility to make sure you have a valid ticket for your journey - you did not have one on this occasion. Making a mistake is not a valid legal defence.
As someone has posted above, you do need to post the paperwork. There are three levels of appeal - the first two usually result in rejection, it is the third level that is independent and looked at by a different group of people. Have you been through all three levels of appeal?
You really do want to avoid going to court - the magistrates can only apply the law and you would certainly lose as you did not have a valid ticket. That would end up being far more costly.
Post the paperwork and you will get good advice here.

 

[Brissle Girl]

As someone has posted above, you do need to post the paperwork. There are three levels of appeal - the first two usually result in rejection, it is the third level that is independent and looked at by a different group of people. Have you been through all three levels of appeal?

That’s the case for Penalty Fares (not that Northern issue the standard penalty fare anyway), and I’m not sure that the OP was given one judging by the description of the original incident.

 

[furlong]

On the wider point, many people consider the way some of the train companies treat their passengers who make mistakes as criminals by default over such trivial matters to be completely insane.

But in reality, this can only be changed in one of two ways - either through politics (bringing political/media pressure on the industry and/or updating the law) - or through the courts (challenging the existing law and practice in the higher courts).

I think the best chance at the moment for the former is if the publicity and inquiries around the alleged legal abuses by the Post Office leads to wider investigations and reform encompassing other industries. For the latter, realistically you're looking at finding someone prepared to spend a 6- or 7-digit sum of money (as if the challenge is successful, the train companies may appeal as the consequences would be so costly and chaotic - overturned convictions, out-of-court settlements invalidated etc.).

 

[WesternLancer]

My advice is do not let this go to court. You will almost certainly lose unless you have legal representation which would cost you more than you would save. And you might still lose.

Did you receive earlier letters about this before the court paperwork and did you respond to that?

I would think that the questions about your income are so that the court can set the correct fine if you are guilty. Those on low incomes may pay a lower fine. If you do not complete it they make an assumption about income.

A ticket discounted with a railcard that has expired is sadly an invalid ticket as far as the railway are concerned. This means in court you would be found guilty of travel without a valid ticket as far as I can see.

You have my sympathy but I fear this is the situation. The paperwork will help clarify of course.

 

[furlong]

I am prepared to take this to court and explain my actions to the judge. Would this country seriously give me a criminal record over £1?
A loyal hard working British citizen who takes the train everyday to work issued a criminal record over £1 …. Would this actually happen?

Until we see the paperwork we're guessing what we think it says, but:

(a) Thousands probably have been given criminal records in similar situations (small sums, expired railcards) - so yes, it could actually happen.

(b) A solicitor might help with mitigation, potentially saving you from a fine if you get lucky, but to avoid conviction (other than by challenging the law at great potential expense) I think you might need a solicitor somehow to persuade the court that it's not your fault because the train company bears a substantial amount of culpability for your mistake - but how would you do that realistically?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That’s the case for Penalty Fares (not that Northern issue the standard penalty fare anyway), and I’m not sure that the OP was given one judging by the description of the original incident.

To just clarify this point - Northern do operate a conventional penalty fares scheme, and it covers Barrow to Ulverston. See https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares.

 

[scrapy]

To just clarify this point - Northern do operate a conventional penalty fares scheme, and it covers Barrow to Ulverston. See https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares.

They do, but this sounds like a TIR was completed as a penalty fare can only be issued at the time not retrospectively by post. It sounds like the OP has been offered an out of court settlement not a penalty fare.