BR diesel green to blue livery change..

[Big Jumby 74]

Hi all

I seem to recall seeing a generic discussion some while back relating to the introduction of BR corporate blue, but I am wondering (and forgive me if this has been touched on before), has any kind soul ever attempted to list the approximate repainting (BR green to BR blue) of individual loco's from the various classes? Presumably this would rely on the survival of any works/loco record cards?

Thx in advance for any pointers.

 

[D6130]

As far as I am aware, the first loco to be repainted in the initial experimental blue livery - a slightly paler hue than the later standard 'Rail Blue', with small yellow warning panels and the new corporate 'double arrow' logos on a red square background on each cab side, IIRC - was class 47 no. D1733, which was intended to run with the XP64 blue and grey train set. What I'm not sure of, however, is whether the loco was actually repainted....or was it delivered in that livery?

 

[randyrippley]

As far as I am aware, the first loco to be repainted in the initial experimental blue livery - a slightly paler hue than the later standard 'Rail Blue', with small yellow warning panels and the new corporate 'double arrow' logos on a red square background on each cab side, IIRC - was class 47 no. D1733, which was intended to run with the XP64 blue and grey train set. What I'm not sure of, however, is whether the loco was actually repainted....or was it delivered in that livery?

by chance within the last few days I saw online somewhere a photo of a 47 on shed in all-blue experimental livery with NO yellow warning panels. The text implied it was delivered and used like that, before eventual repaint
Sorry can't remember which loco or where
either that or someone was playing a joke with photoshop..........

==edit==
My memory was playing false again: it was a class 30, D5578 not a 47
The photo, taken in 1960 is here https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/52909433040/in/photostream/

 

[Cowley]

As far as I am aware, the first loco to be repainted in the initial experimental blue livery - a slightly paler hue than the later standard 'Rail Blue', with small yellow warning panels and the new corporate 'double arrow' logos on a red square background on each cab side, IIRC - was class 47 no. D1733, which was intended to run with the XP64 blue and grey train set. What I'm not sure of, however, is whether the loco was actually repainted....or was it delivered in that livery?

D1733 was delivered in that livery and later on some of the last class 47s built by Brush were delivered in BR blue having never worn green.

Edit - When built D1733 was sent out in primer before the XP64 livery was applied:

Class47.co.uk ~ Numbers

Class 47. Brush type 4. Sulzer. British Rail. British Railways. Pictures. Photos. Photographs. Photo Gallery. Images. Trains.

www.class47.co.uk

 

[Beebman]

Hi all

I seem to recall seeing a generic discussion some while back relating to the introduction of BR corporate blue, but I am wondering (and forgive me if this has been touched on before), has any kind soul ever attempted to list the approximate repainting (BR green to BR blue) of individual loco's from the various classes? Presumably this would rely on the survival of any works/loco record cards?

Thx in advance for any pointers.

The RCTS magazine 'The Railway Observer' recorded some loco repaintings at the time. The archive is available online:

https://archive.rcts.org.uk/the-railway-observer-editions/

Individual issues can be read online for free after registration but there's a charge for downloading them as PDFs. Each issue divides news by region. As a random example, here's a brief paragraph from the Scottish Region section on p.61 of the February 1967 issue:

LIVERY. D5068 appears to be the first Type 2 to be repainted blue with all-yellow ends. Type 1's were still being painted green in December.

 

[Strathclyder]

Not that it's in any way accurate/precise, but I'm aware of at least one Class 40/EE Type 4 - 40039 - that never received BR Blue prior to withdrawal. 40122 doesn't really count, as that had received BR Blue long before it first withdrawal in 1981, regaining a version of Green as part of it's revival. Nor does the original D322, which was withdrawn due to accident damage.

Outside of the less successful Modernization Plan designs (Metrovicks, NBL Type 2s & the 15s/16s), most of, if not all of each type, gained BR Blue with some notable outliers stubbornly clinging to Green well into the mid-70s. This is of course barring accident/fire damage victims as per the original D322 example above and the first four 47s to be withdrawn between 1965 & 1971.

D1733 was delivered in that livery and later on some of the last class 47s built by Brush were delivered in BR blue having never worn green.

Edit - When built D1733 was sent out in primer before the XP64 livery was applied:

Class47.co.uk ~ Numbers

Class 47. Brush type 4. Sulzer. British Rail. British Railways. Pictures. Photos. Photographs. Photo Gallery. Images. Trains.

www.class47.co.uk

Beat me to this. The last 9 47s built by Brush (D1953-1961) were outshopped in BR Blue. I believe all the Crewe-built examples emerged in Green.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Thanks for all your comments. From my own fragmented records, the following were still in their original green (not a latter day repaint, such as 08531, the Liverpool Street station pilot) and carried TOPS numbers at the dates shown;

08923 - 7 Jan 1978
08934 - numerous dates, but still thus on 2 Oct 1977
20155 - 5 August 1978
20164 - 5 August 1978
20170 - 17 June 1978
47195 - July 1976
47256 - Sometime in 1976
47369 - 20 December 1976

There were other 47's as I recall, 3xx series, but some of my records have gone to pot since!

 

[Whistler40145]

40106 never carried BR Blue and was withdrawn in Green

 

[Big Jumby 74]

40106 never carried BR Blue and was withdrawn in Green

Was wondering about that, having been on the 'Warcop Warrior' in November 81. It's paintwork, although not pristine, looked pretty good for green - ah! have just looked at Roger Harris Vol 2, seems it got a fresh coat of green may be late '76 or soon after due to other demands on the tins of blue..........and it wasn't withdrawn until 83.

 

[D6130]

The first of the original Eastfield class 27s that I recall seing repainted in rail blue with full yellow ends on the West Highland Line were D5353 and D5354 (later 27 007 & 008) in mid-1967. They were followed over the next year or two by D5348/51/52/57/59/60/62/63/64/65/66/67/68 & 69. Meanwhile other members of the class were still emerging from St Rollox works in various patched-up versions of their original green livery - with or without some, or all, of their original white lining. Ex-Leicester 5381 (later 27 033) in the Summer of 1973. Ironically, the very last 27 to carry green livery with full yellow ends was the first-built 5347/27 001 - repainted some time in 1974 - and this was also the only class member to carry its TOPS number while still in green livery. At one time in the early 1970s I recorded no less than twelve different variations in the green and blue liveries of the class 26 and 27 locomotives.

With regard to the class 29s....prototype rebuild D6123 of 1963 and production models D6101/02/03/06/12/13/14/16/21/30/32 and 33 0f 1965/66 were delivered in two-tone green with a narrow white waist-level stripe (see my avatar) and kept that livery until withdrawal, albeit with the addition of full yellow cab ends in about 1970, which spoiled their appearance somewhat IMHO. The 1967 conversions - D6100/07/08/19/24/29 and 37 - were turned out in rail blue with full yellow ends.

Haymarket's D365 (later 40 165) was still running in an increasingly tatty green livery with small yellow warning panels until sometime in 1973.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

With regard to the class 29s....prototype rebuild D6123 of 1963 and production models D6101/02/03/06/12/13/14/16/21/30/32 and 33 0f 1965/66 were delivered in two-tone green with a narrow white waist-level stripe

To my mind the slight change of bodyside angle (swage line) lent these loco's ideally to the two tone green that was applied to some, it gave their appearance a 'lift' as it were. The all over (darker) green making them look a tad drab by comparison (IMHO), and I agree, the full yellow cab fronts ruined the effect.

 

[D6130]

ISTR that the Southern Region were rather slow in painting small yellow warning panels onto their green class 33s. I believe that quite a few were still running without them when converted to class 33/1 and repainted in rail blue in 1967.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

ISTR that the Southern Region were rather slow in painting small yellow warning panels onto their green class 33s.

Funny you say that. A small voice in the back of my head is telling me I have heard that before (where/who?) but was before my time (on job) so can't comment...

 

[Deepgreen]

by chance within the last few days I saw online somewhere a photo of a 47 on shed in all-blue experimental livery with NO yellow warning panels. The text implied it was delivered and used like that, before eventual repaint
Sorry can't remember which loco or where
either that or someone was playing a joke with photoshop..........

==edit==
My memory was playing false again: it was a class 30, D5578 not a 47
The photo, taken in 1960 is here https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/52909433040/in/photostream/

It's a lovely photo. That livery was not identical to the later XP livery, and carried the old totem rather than the double-arrow logo on a red square. There was a series of experimental liveries, including Desert Sand, at the turn of the decade. I imagine the XP livery was derived from the 1960ish experiments, and yet still didn't make it to production - the paler blue apparently wore badly compared to the adopted BR Blue colour.

Funny you say that. A small voice in the back of my head is telling me I have heard that before (where/who?) but was before my time (on job) so can't comment...

True.

 

[L+Y]

I think I've seen some attempts at this, but it can be quite tricky! There's a Facebook group called something like "British Rail Loco Liveries 1966-80" that covers many of the oddities.

Blue repaints began in 1966. I believe the first main line locos in blue were D9002, D8048 and a class 31: not sure which. These were all standard blue with full yellow ends, which just shows the inefficiency of the system, given non standard blue repaints took place after this date. The current tortured introduction of RA2 is nothing new!

Blue repaints moved much more quickly with some classes than others - the "Peaks" were done far more quickly than the class 40s for example. The prestige Deltics were all blue by 1969, but their Western counterparts didn't all go blue until I think 1972.

Other oddities. As mentioned before, plenty of SR class 33s ran without yellow ends until conversion to blue in 1967/68- so did a few Scottish region class 20s. No loco, I'm fairly certain in saying, ran in green with small yellow ends with TOPS numbers. Very few Peaks ever got full yellow ends on green, but plenty of 40s and 47s did. Lots of Eastern region locos sported BR double arrows on green, and a handful of class 25s and a 76 had a lion and wheel totem on blue. And early blue repaints for DMUs and a single class 73 featured wrap around yellow ends around the cab windows, in effect creating in the latter case something quite similar to Large Logo livery ten years early!

 

[Deepgreen]

The last loco to carry green was what became 'celebrity' 40122 (D200) which survived thus until the mid-1980s. However, I'm not sure whether it was continuously in that livery. I believe it was actually repainted green from green, rather than into blue, but can't be certain. Here it is at Keighley on an S&C service working in August 1985.

 

[D6130]

I believe that the class EM2 (later class 77) Woodhead Line express locos started life in early BR lined black livery, were then repainted in lined Brunswick Green and eventually some - if not all - of them BR 'Electric Blue' (the same shade as the West Coast AC electric locos' original livery but with transfer totems in place of the cast aluminium logos)....before emerging in the Nederlands Spoorwegen yellow and grey. I'm not certan whether any of their smaller EM1/class 76 cousins were ever painted in 'Electric Blue' in between green and 'Rail Blue', but maybe that's how a couple of them ended-up in blue with the old 1957-64 style totems. 76 022 springs to mind.

 

[L+Y]

The last loco to carry green was what became 'celebrity' 40122 (D200) which survived thus until the mid-1980s. However, I'm not sure whether it was continuously in that livery. I believe it was actually repainted green from green, rather than into blue, but can't be certain. Here it is at Keighley on an S&C service working in August 1985.View attachment 140040

It wasn't- the loco wore blue from before TOPS up until the 80s.

40106 was the loco that only ever wore green, being repainted from green to green in 1978.

 

[randyrippley]

............. - the paler blue apparently wore badly compared to the adopted BR Blue colour

We've explored this before, with tales of supposed "Chromatic" blue vs later "Monastral" blue.
The problem seems to be that BR started using phthalocyanine blue without really doing any research on how to stabilise the colour. Depending on how you formulate and apply it, the same pigment can look blue or blue-green. And like all blue pigments it faded badly anyway until they found a way of protecting the paint - which took several years. Add to that the fact that often the blue was painted directly over green with no undercoat and you've immediately got a problem. Similarly on ships where the blue went straight on top of the existing black. And then you have the variance in how the paint was applied: spray or brush, and the variables quickly rack up.
The problem we have nowadays is that no camera film was capable of an accurate representation of the colour, and most negatives will have suffered colour drift and degradation as well. It all adds up to being unable to trust the photographic records

 

[Whistler40145]

It wasn't- the loco wore blue from before TOPS up until the 80s.

40106 was the loco that only ever wore green, being repainted from green to green in 1978.

40122 was repainted in Green following being restored to full working order

 

[Cowley]

40122 was repainted in Green following being restored to full working order

I seem to remember that 40122 (in standard BR blue) was dragged out of the scrap line at Kingmoor for restoration and as a replacement for railtour celebrity 40106 which only had vacuum brakes?

 

[Whistler40145]

I seem to remember that 40122 (in standard BR blue) was dragged out of the scrap line at Kingmoor for restoration and as a replacement for railtour celebrity 40106 which only had vacuum brakes?

40106 never received Air Brakes

 

[Taunton]

by chance within the last few days I saw online somewhere a photo of a 47 on shed in all-blue experimental livery with NO yellow warning panels. The text implied it was delivered and used like that, before eventual repaint
Sorry can't remember which loco or where
either that or someone was playing a joke with photoshop..........

==edit==
My memory was playing false again: it was a class 30, D5578 not a 47
The photo, taken in 1960 is here https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/52909433040/in/photostream/

There were two locos delivered together in experimental colours, 5578 in medium blue and 5579 in orange. Here are pics of the latter:

d5579 photos on Flickr

Flickr photos, groups, and tags related to the "d5579" Flickr tag.

www.flickr.com

Among other things, they formed the first ever colour work, that month, in Trains Illustrated magazine, which later renamed to Modern Railways. Editor G Freeman Allen (Cecil J Allen's son) must have gone through quite some negotiations to get colour printing in a magazine in those times - one page only.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There were two locos delivered together in experimental colours, 5578 in medium blue and 5579 in orange.

And absolutely amazing they looked too, at a time when Brunswick green (or black) dominated everything!

Among other things, they formed the first ever colour work, that month, in Trains Illustrated magazine, which later renamed to Modern Railways. Editor G Freeman Allen (Cecil J Allen's son) must have gone through quite some negotiations to get colour printing in a magazine in those times - one page only.

Was that the page with about six examples, side on, of diesels (Cl 31s?) in various liveries?

 

[EveningStar]

47256 - Sometime in 1976

My photo of two tone green 47256 at Oxford, 22 July 1976. Soon afterwards, 47256 was repainted somewhat anomalously from two tone to all over green, in which freshly repainted condition I remember seeing at Bromsgrove. As class 47's were two tone green or blue, this was an oddity indeed, and I understand it was a temporary measure due to fire damage.

40106 never carried BR Blue and was withdrawn in Green

There were persistence platform end rumours at the time that 40106 was repainted blue (undercoat?) in Crewe and then painted green before release. Knowing that one needs to treat everything heard at the platform end with a massive amount of caution, presumably somebody has analysed the paint layers to prove this rumour one way or another.

 

[Trackman]

40106 was the loco that only ever wore green, being repainted from green to green in 1978.

Apart from the myth they painted her half blue during the overhaul at Crewe then changed their minds.
Never been disproved yet.
Insiders reckon it was an undercoat.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

My photo of two tone green 47256 at Oxford, 22 July 1976. Soon afterwards, 47256 was repainted somewhat anomalously from two tone to all over green, in which freshly repainted condition I remember seeing at Bromsgrove. As class 47's were two tone green or blue, this was an oddity indeed, and I understand it was a temporary measure due to fire damage.

That is excellent detail, as it was either late 76 or sometime in 77 that I (an others whom I still know) witnessed '256 on the Eastleigh to Ripple Lane(?) car train (Ford Transit vans) and the loco was most definitely in one shade (darker) green.
May I just add, with my thanks, that it is such (perhaps not perfect) photos, which some out there are, or have been critical of (in my experience), photos which, combined with date and other detail, can often solve questions which many of us have when looking back to our early enthusiast days. So thank you indeed for your input.

 

[Taunton]

And absolutely amazing they looked too, at a time when Brunswick green (or black) dominated everything!


Was that the page with about six examples, side on, of diesels (Cl 31s?) in various liveries?

I believe so. I certainly remember they were Brush Type 2s. Although I still have the magazine up at the back of the attic, behind all the defunct pushchairs and other stuff never used for 15 years or more, I can't recall the last time I saw it. I do however recall the surprise the day that month's issue first came through the letterbox.

 

[Harvester]

Visited Carlisle on 27th June 1977, and noted 47256 in two-tone green livery at the station on arrival. Then travelled out to Kingmoor and saw 40106 in green livery, and also green 24090 dumped amongst a row of withdrawn Class 24s on the scrap line. 47256 suffered fire damage a few months later and received a repaint to one-tone green after repair, as mentioned upthread, and ended up as BR’s last green Duff.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

47256 suffered fire damage a few months later and received a repaint to one-tone green

Reading the work 'Class 47: 50 year history...' (Lilley & co) it was November 77 when '256 caught fire and Canton did the repairs. I have now found my own notes dated 27 Feb '78, when I noted that on seeing it in all over dark green, it was also sporting red buffer beams...