BR green liveried locos in the HST era

[Justin Smith]

Apologies if this has been discussed before.
I was re-reading my Railway Magazines and saw a short article on p257 of the May 1977 issue on BR green locos.
It listed locos still in BR green as at the end of Dec 1976 :

Class 03 - 1
Class 08 - 91
Class 09 - 1
Class 13 - 1
Class 20 - 32
Class 40 - 2 (40 106 and 136)
Class 47 - 8 (47 195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369)

Edit : Note from Magdalia (down thread), "there is a transcription error in the 47s, the list from Railway Magazine should read 47195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369".
To be fair the actual list in RWM was 47 195/256/356/8/65/6/7/9. A curious method of listing the locos which I misinterpreted as 006, 007, 008 , 009, 065, 195, 256, 356.
Picture of the RWM article (with all the 136 numbers) added 20 Jan 24

I was not sure what forum to put this in - a moderator could move it if appropriate - but I know from personal experience as a modeller I do often wonder how realistic various combinations of livery actually are !

 

[nw1]

Apologies if this has been discussed before.
I was re-reading my Railway Magazines and saw a short article on p257 of the May 1977 issue on BR green locos.
It listed locos still in BR green as at the end of Dec 1976 :

Class 03 - 1
Class 08 - 91
Class 09 - 1
Class 13 - 1
Class 20 - 32
Class 40 - 2 (036 and 106)
Class 47 - 8 (006, 007, 008 , 009, 065, 195, 256, 356)

I was not sure what forum to put this in - a moderator could move it if appropriate - but I know from personal experience as a modeller I do often wonder how realistic various combinations of livery actually are !

Interesting they carried on so late - I'd have guessed green would have gone around 1970.

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting they carried on so late - I'd have guessed green would have gone around 1970.

There were several even ETH fitted 47s in green in the latter-70s still.

I've seen numbers for the last three somewhere - I'll have a search about.

 

[Magdalia]

Class 47 - 8 (006, 007, 008 , 009, 065, 195, 256, 356)

There is a transcription error here, the list from Railway Magazine should read 47195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369.

47006 was ex D1528 which was an early recipient of blue livery.

There were several even ETH fitted 47s in green in the latter-70s still.

Of the ETH conversions (that is excluding D1500-19), only about half of the D1101-11 batch (I can't remember which) and D1936 came out in green with ETH. D1960 and D1961 were blue from new, and all the other ETH conversions came out in blue.

Class 20 - 32

27 of these were from the D8128-77 batch that were new in green livery in 1966.

I suggest that history and nostalgia is a more appropriate place for this, it definitely isn't a subject just for modellers.

 

[Cowley]

There is a transcription error here, the list from Railway Magazine should read 47195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369.

47006 was ex D1528 which was an early recipient of blue livery.


Of the ETH conversions (that is excluding D1500-19), only about half of the D1101-11 batch (I can't remember which) and D1936 came out in green with ETH. D1960 and D1961 were blue from new, and all the other ETH conversions came out in blue.


27 of these were from the D8128-77 batch that were new in green livery in 1966.

I suggest that history and nostalgia is a more appropriate place for this, it definitely isn't a subject just for modellers.

Thread now moved.

Yes though, as you’ve listed them above - quite a few 47/3s lasted in two tone green until quite late on. I’ve always wondered why that was?

 

[midland1]

Interesting they carried on so late - I'd have guessed green would have gone around 1970.

In 1970 there were many green locos still around, could be up to 50%.

 

[12LDA28C]

Apologies if this has been discussed before.
I was re-reading my Railway Magazines and saw a short article on p257 of the May 1977 issue on BR green locos.
It listed locos still in BR green as at the end of Dec 1976 :

Class 03 - 1
Class 08 - 91
Class 09 - 1
Class 13 - 1
Class 20 - 32
Class 40 - 2 (036 and 106)
Class 47 - 8 (006, 007, 008 , 009, 065, 195, 256, 356)

I was not sure what forum to put this in - a moderator could move it if appropriate - but I know from personal experience as a modeller I do often wonder how realistic various combinations of livery actually are !

This list is certainly incorrect as regards the Class 47s.

47006 was in BR blue by November 1967, 47007 by November 1971, 47008 by December 1971 and 47009 was blue by December 1967. 47367 was also still in green until December 1977. Not sure where the RM got its information from!

Thread now moved.

Yes though, as you’ve listed them above - quite a few 47/3s lasted in two tone green until quite late on. I’ve always wondered why that was?

Maybe because as they were specifically freight locos (although not always confined to freight, particularly in summer), repainting them in a shiny new coat of BR blue wasn't a priority for the depots they were based at.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes though, as you’ve listed them above - quite a few 47/3s lasted in two tone green until quite late on. I’ve always wondered why that was?

As with the class 20s, build date is part of the answer.

47195 is ex D1845 built Crewe new 05/65
47256 is ex D1934 built Brush new 03/66
47356 is ex D1875 built Brush new 07/65
47358 is ex D1877 built Brush new 06/65
47365 is ex D1884 built Brush new 07/65
47366 is ex D1885 built Brush new 07/65
47367 is ex D1886 built Brush new 08/65
47369 is ex D1888 built Brush new 07/65

To be still in green livery in 1977 it helps to have been one of the last locos to be delivered in green livery in 1965 or 1966.

I wonder if only one of the list being built at Crewe is significant.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Knottingley and Immingham 47s had their share of two-tone green liveries iirc

 

[Western 52]

Although not used on main running lines, the former class 15 carriage heating units were still green. I saw one in 1982 at Stratford. I think there were 4 of them?

 

[Harvester]

I saw 47256 in two-tone green livery at Carlisle on 27th June 1977. It suffered fire damaged a few months later, then after repair emerged from Crewe works repainted in one-tone green.

 

[nw1]

I saw 47256 in two-tone green livery at Carlisle on 27th June 1977. It suffered fire damaged a few months later, then after repair emerged from Crewe works repainted in one-tone green.

Interesting to hear this. By the time I started using the railways in late 1982 (plus a few months to allow time to learn a little about the railway) I considered any liveries earlier than BR blue as part of a bygone era and long gone - yet it seems green had been around a mere 5 years earlier.

Certainly the concept of HSTs and green locos co-existing is something I wouldn't have expected.

Wonder when the last green loco was repainted into BR blue? Sounds from your comment that green may have made it into 1978, somewhat significant personally as that year was the first from which I have many (non-rail-related) memories. Did any green locos (or multiple units, for that matter) remain by the start of the 80s?

 

[Magdalia]

I saw 47256 in two-tone green livery at Carlisle on 27th June 1977. It suffered fire damaged a few months later, then after repair emerged from Crewe works repainted in one-tone green.

47256 is an unusual case but it illustrates a more general point.

The vast majority of repaints were at the end of classified repairs at main works. The RCTS 1983 Locomotive Stock Book was the first to give (nearly) comprehensive data on last classified repair dates.

According to this source 47256 had a Heavy General Overhaul in October 1978, and I suspect that it was painted blue at the end of that overhaul.

But some unclassified repairs, mainly for collisions and fires, also went to the paint shop. In 47256's case, it appears that a decision was made to "patch up" the green livery after the 1977 fire, leaving the full blue repaint to the Heavy General Overhaul about a year later.

The six green class 47/3s all had Heavy General Overhauls in the second half of 1977.

 

[Justin Smith]

There is a transcription error here, the list from Railway Magazine should read 47195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369.

Thanks for that, I have edited the opener :

Edit : Note from Magdalia (down thread), "there is a transcription error in the 47s, the list from Railway Magazine should read 47195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369".
To be fair the actual list in RWM was 47 195/256/356/8/65/6/7/9. A curious method of listing the locos which I misinterpreted as 006, 007, 008 , 009, 065, 195, 256, 356.

Does the same error applied to the 40s which are listed as 40 106/36 ?
Why the RWM listed the locos in that obscure manner I have no idea !

 

[Ashley Hill]

John W1’s photo archive in the photography thread shows several locomotives in green into the late 70s. It’s worth a trawl through.

 

[Magdalia]

Wonder when the last green loco was repainted into BR blue? Sounds from your comment that green may have made it into 1978, somewhat significant personally as that year was the first from which I have many (non-rail-related) memories. Did any green locos (or multiple units, for that matter) remain by the start of the 80s?

As far as I can tell from the monthly issues of Railway Observer, 20141 and 20147 were the last green to blue repaints in July 1980.

Why the RWM listed the locos in that obscure manner I have no idea !

In those days, it was the usual method. It was devised way before TOPS renumbering, and saved on both typesetting and paper.

The way I listed the locos is a modern post TOPS extravagance!

Does the same error applied to the 40s which are listed as 40 106/36 ?

Yes!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I saw 47256 in two-tone green livery at Carlisle on 27th June 1977. It suffered fire damaged a few months later, then after repair emerged from Crewe works repainted in one-tone green.

Noted on Old Oak prior to the fire in a very worn state. Two tone green, white dots/black background head code box, '1934' showing clearly through the paint under the drivers window, below which the data panel was blue, and '47256' applied in the more usual TOPS position aft of the drivers door.
Post fire, noted it working an UP Ford Transit train up the SWML in all over one tone dark green, although date escapes me.

 

[Justin Smith]

>>Justin Smith said:
Does the same error applied to the 40s which are listed as 40 106/36 ?<<

Yes!

So should it be 40 106 and 40 136 ?

 

[Cowley]

So should it be 40 106 and 40 136 ?

Yes I think that’s correct. 40106 was basically repainted back into BR green* and became a loco that was used frequently on railtours before being replaced by 40122 (D200).

* There are mixed views on this however. I think the general consensus might be that it was initially painted blue (possibly just a base coat?) before the decision was made to turn it out in green with full yellow ends.

40136 is pictured here by John Woolley in 1976:

40136_1976_08_Peterborough_A3_800dpi

The only thing going for this very mediocre effort is the subject matter in the form of a very worn and shabby green livered 40136 approaching Peterborough, 21st August 1976. Locomotive History D336 was built by English Electric at their Vulcan Foundry and is one of twenty Class 40 locomotives...

www.flickr.com

Edit - Aha! I knew we’d done this recently. I’ll merge the threads in a bit so it’s all in the one place.

BR diesel green to blue livery change..

A worksplate from 40106 passed through auction recently,there’s certainly traces of blue paint around the edge. Here’s a link to the Crewe Railwayana site. https://www.ukrailwayana.com/2023CR06/l_313.htm

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[norbitonflyer]

Thanks for that, I have edited the opener :

Edit : Note from Magdalia (down thread), "there is a transcription error in the 47s, the list from Railway Magazine should read 47195/256/356/358/365/366/367/369".
To be fair the actual list in RWM was 47 195/256/356/8/65/6/7/9. A curious method of listing the locos which I misinterpreted as 006, 007, 008 , 009, 065, 195, 256, 356.


Why the RWM listed the locos in that obscure manner I have no idea !

Was a;lways done that way, and saved a lot of space - particularly in the renumbering era when there could be 100 or so to list in any one issue. Entries were in niumerical order, and it was always understood that any digits not specified were the same as in the immediately preceding number: so 47356/7/65/6/401 would mean 47356, 47357, 47365, 47366, 47401

 

[Clarence Yard]

Done it enough times on BR as well although I used the dash when there was a short consecutive run. Very handy if you are listing consecutive runs of LHCS in a memo.

So I would have written them as 47195/256/356/8/65-7/9.

Incidentally, up to the late 1970’s at least, depots didn’t determine what colour their engines were painted when they went to works. That would have been decided by the BREL works, sometimes in conjunction with the relevant regional shopping control. It was in times of financial constraint or when throughput was an issue that locos could miss out on a repaint or you would find only the yellow ends got done.

 

[Justin Smith]

I have added a picture of the original RWM article with all 136 numbers.
I wonder whether Mr S J Rinham of Essex is still with us ? ! ?
It was 59 years ago so I suspect possibly not.....

 

[Ashley Hill]

Are there any pictures of HSTs alongside green locos?

 

[Taunton]

The two small class 01 diesels at Holyhead were still in mainstream BR stock into the 1980s, and were still in their original BR 1950s black diesel livery, which pre-dated the green. They were on an isolated line so no photos of them with anything more modern. Looking presentable, my guess is the shed fitter probably touched them up where needed.

 

[Pigeon]

Does D818 count...?

 

[Cowley]

Does D818 count...?

No, that would have been a preservation group repaint unfortunately.

 

[Irascible]

No, that would have been a preservation group repaint unfortunately.

Not sure you can really call Swindon Works a preservation group that was a retro repaint I'll give you. Also very non-functional. I can't help wondering if someone who looked after apprentices down there had Ideas about the works pets occasionally.

 

[Taunton]

Not sure you can really call Swindon Works a preservation group. That was a retro repaint I'll give you. Also very non-functional. I can't help wondering if someone who looked after apprentices down there had Ideas about the works pets occasionally.

However, it does bring the elements of the thread together, for it was on my very first HST journey, Bristol to Paddington in earliest days, where I had not gone along the line there for years, that approaching Swindon there was, to my considerable surprise, the display collection of well-presented but otherwise withdrawn diesel types around the works turntable next to the line - Warship, Western, Hymek etc.

 

[Ashley Hill]

TDB968006 (aka D5705) was at Bristol and then Swindon in the 1980s,could it have been photographed with/near an HST?

 

[Harvester]

TDB968006 (aka D5705) was at Bristol and then Swindon in the 1980s,could it have been photographed with/near an HST?

When I travelled to Swindon by DMU from Gloucester on 17/2/1981, TDB968006 (ex D5705) was dumped in a siding by the east side of Swindon Works. The next entry in my notebook is HST 253 005 (43010) which was most likely in the station, but out of sight from TDB968006. The Co-Bo eventually entered the works, so may have stood for some time in the reception sidings alongside the GW mainline, as HSTs passed close by!