BR Inter-Regional Services

[03_179]

I was talking to a mate recently about the BR days and we were discussing the old Inter-Regional services from Brighton to Manchester.

I did some googling and couldn't come up with much.

We remembered it was 95% of the time cl.47s but neither of us could remember what the coaching stock was or what other locos would have been hauling it and also was there another destination other than Manchester, was there a Glasgow one?

Also there was one that passed through Bromley. Dover to where? Again neither could remember what the stock or loco was or the destinations, any one know?

Does anyone remember the headcodes and times (or copy of the time tables?

I guess this also includes the old Tranpennine services which were the Newcastle to Liverpool (?) These, I know, were mkII stock with generally cl.47s. (I have a few Transpennine liveried coaches in model form).

I remember the Brighton to Manchester train had a varying loading of passengers some days it's practically empty and yet others it was really busy (Not sure what the loading on the Dover to ? was )

Whenever I did travel on the old Transpennine they seemed to have a fiar few people on them.

So can anyone enlighten us on their memories of the BR Inter-Regionals (Pre Privatisation).

Over to you .....

 

[gordonthemoron]

BR Transpenine services in the 1980s AFAIR were Newcastle-Liverpool/Holyhead and Scarborough-Liverpool

 

[Phil.]

Can't remember the Brighton to Manchester(morning) or the Brighton to Edinburgh/Glasgow (early afternoon) headcodes. The inbound Manchester was 1066 and I seem to remember that the inbound Edinburgh/Glasgow was 1090.
There was a Folkestone to somewhere oop north, it had that purple painted Deltic on several times. I talked to a driver who worked it a few times. He, being a Southern man was used to 33s. He described the Deltic hauling eight coaches as, "a bit lively".

 

[03_179]

BR Transpenine services in the 1980s AFAIR were Newcastle-Liverpool/Holyhead and Scarborough-Liverpool

Thanks, I remember the Liverpool ones and now you mention it the Holyhead ones.

Can't remember the Brighton to Manchester(morning) or the Brighton to Edinburgh/Glasgow (early afternoon) headcodes. The inbound Manchester was 1066 and I seem to remember that the inbound Edinburgh/Glasgow was 1090.
There was a Folkestone to somewhere oop north, it had that purple painted Deltic on several times. I talked to a driver who worked it a few times. He, being a Southern man was used to 33s. He described the Deltic hauling eight coaches as, "a bit lively".

I bet he thought it was lively a little more power that a 33 lol.
Thanks for the headcodes. I wish I could find my headcode books from the 1980!!!! 1H88 etc.

 

[EM2]

I used them a few times between Reading and Birmingham, and it was always a 47, Mk2 stock, with a Mk1 buffet. Not sure what type of Mk2s though.
The Dover was to Manchester too, I thought?

 

[telstarbox]

This website should help

http://www.1s76.com/

 

[03_179]

I used them a few times between Reading and Birmingham, and it was always a 47, Mk2 stock, with a Mk1 buffet. Not sure what type of Mk2s though.
The Dover was to Manchester too, I thought?

Thanks I think you're right I may be wrong about the Brighton to Manchester.

This website should help

http://www.1s76.com/

I tried a look at that earlier but blocked here at work so I'll have a look at home.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Trans Pennine services varied over the years. The first diesel services considted of 4 loco-hauled services, Liverpool - Newcastle & return. The other services were operated by the Trans Pennine (Class 124) dmus, intially Liverpool to Leeds or Hull.

After withdrawal of the Class 124s, everything became loco-hauled, initially hourly from Liverpool, to York, some extending to either Newcastle or Scarborough. Then the Manchester - Liverpool section was reduced to every 2 hours $$, with services on the alternate 2 hours running instead to North Wales destinations (Holyhead, Bangor or Llandudno). By that time, stock was mainly early Mark 2 Often with a Mark 1 BG). (AirCon Mark 2 had appeared for a very brief time on a few services.)

$$ - Without searching old timetables, I cannot remember when TP services started running to North Wales; from memory, I would think early 1980s, or maybe late 1970s.

Early diesel motive power (from 1961) was Class 40. Class 46 nominally took over in about 1963, but was not totally reliable, and Class 40 continued to appear for many years **. With the end of steam heating, trains became mostly Class 45/1 and then 47/4. (Other diesel classes did appear (including classes 31 & 55), but usually only after failures, or if they were desperately short of the booked traction.

(** - And steam substitions between Liverpool & Leeds remained fairly common until 1967)

 

[Cowley]

Here's a few from or to the old southern region that I went on the early 90s, obviously there were other trains serving other areas but you mentioned the southern area so I found these in my old book.

Each time it was a 47/8 with about 7 or 8 mk2 aircon coaches in intercity livery, I think by then the trains were entirely mk2 including the buffet that was built into the 1st class vehicle at one end of the train. Maybe someone else with a better memory can remember? It was 25 years ago after all.

3/06/91 not sure of the headcode but it was 0759 Liverpool LS to Folksstone, 87007 to Coventry which was replaced by 47843 in Intercity Swallow colours. I went from Wolverhampton to Ashford on this.

12/02/92 Again, I don't know the headcode (1S??) 0918 Brighton to Glasgow, 47846 THOR (intercity livery) to Birmingham, replaced by 86225 at Birmingham, I took this from Clapham Junction to Crewe.

10/02/92 The 1422 Dover Western Docks to Liverpool lime st, 47813, I took this from Dover WD to Kensington Olympia so I'm not sure where the 47 would have been replaced.

There were also similar trains to Paddington, Poole, Devon, South Wales, lots of places.
Hope this helps 03179

 

[Springs Branch]

The mention of cross-country trains from the north to/from Dover reminded me of another service back in the heyday of BR's Motorail network.

In the early 1970s there was a Motorail service between Dover and Stirling.

Not a bad idea back in the days before the M25 & Channel Tunnel, when the motorway & main road networks still had significant gaps and bottlenecks and flight/car hire holidays were not as widespread or cheap as today.

Any European tourists arriving off the ferry at Dover with their family & car and heading for a summer holiday in the Highlands would be faced firstly with a tortuous drive through London, then a long trip up the M1/M6/A74 and through Glasgow or industrial Central Scotland before getting to the scenic bits.
Similarly a francophile Scots wanting a driving holiday on the Continent had a gruelling drive south and through London before arriving in Calais or Boulogne.

Unfortunately my LMR timetables only show the Dover/Stirling train on the maps and make no mention in their Motorail schedules - presumably a case of "not our area - why should we bother publicising services from the SR to the ScR?"

A bit of investigation of Working Timetables seems to show this was an extension of the Stirling/Kensington Olympia trains.
In 1973 this ran in the summer period as:
1S15 2130 SSuO Dover - Stirling, and
1S15 2330 SSuX Kensington Olympia - Stirling

1O92 2030 FSO Stirling - Dover, and
1M62 2030 FSX Stirling - Kensington Olympia

These services ran overnight in both directions and provided both sleeper and compartment accommodation.
Not sure what haulage was involved at the southern end (presumably steam heating was not required in the summer), but it would have brought a very un-Southern Region type of train (Sleepers & Motorail) to Third Rail Land.

 

[03_179]

Thanks everyone so far that's posted. Bringing back some memories.

Managed to get on that site and will be looking through it over the next few days

 

[Bill EWS]

I can't remember if this was one of those Inter Region services but I used the Folkstone to Oxford service once. I knew of the service but this back working was a little too early for a day out to Folkstone and visting the Hythe & Dimchurch Railway. However, I decided to have a day out just for the fun of it and to return on this service just to see if there was any advantage from the usual change in London.

It was a long around via Dover and up through Canterbury and across to Clapham and onto the Western Main line at North Pole. However, it was also an enjoyable journey passing through areas that I had not been to before and with passenger stock that you could look out of to really catch those scenes. It would have been nice if there had been a similar service From Didcot but as far as I know tha never happened. Sadly the service didn't last that long.

Here is a photo of 47853 sitting at Folkstone Station in 1992 awaiting departure.

 

[randyrippley]

Class 40s were still being used on Newcastle-Holyhead trains during the late 1980's. I caught a train to the port several times (3/4?) from Wigan NW to the port, and each time it was a 40. Summertime trips, coaches were Mk1/Mk2 non-air conditioned

 

[Cowley]

That's exactly what I remember them Bill. (Someone forgot to replace a light bulb on 853).

 

[Taunton]

The one I remember was the day Plymouth to Liverpool via Hereford, WR and LMR stock on alternate days, which came through Taunton at about 1000. In 1962 we just got the last of the Castle-hauled ones, it was a notably long duty for a Newton Abbot (surprisingly) Castle, which worked all the way to Shrewsbury, and a lodging turn for the crew. Then a LMR loco to Crewe, change locos again and another to Liverpool, arriving about 1700. I actually only remember electrics on the last leg, they were brand new. However, the train was soon changed to a Warship diesel, not only unusual through Hereford but it now worked all the way to Crewe. By about 1965 it was a Brush 4 north of Bristol, although always hydraulics west of there, as the crews were not trained on DE types until after 1970. The train was always well patronised, although it was about 11 Mk 1 coaches I recall the southbound departing Liverpool in the morning on multiple occasions with standing passengers.

Notably on arrival at Liverpool there was another inter-regional across the tracks just about to depart for Newcastle, always with a Gateshead Class 46, which monopolised these services as soon as they were built.

 

[nw1]

I remember the Reading to Birmingham timetables quite clearly from the mid-80s.

For instance in 1983/84 there were trains at approximately these times (from Reading)

0630 to Liverpool or Manchester (can't remember which), from Paddington
0730 to Glasgow, from Paddington
0830 to Liverpool (possibly Manchester) from Poole
0930 to Manchester from Portsmouth
1030 to Manchester from Brighton
1130 to Newcastle from Poole
Nothing at 1230 - gap in the service
1330 to Manchester or Liverpool from Paddington
1430 to Manchester or Liverpool from Poole
1530 to Manchester from Brighton
1630 to Manchester or Liverpool from Poole

Can't remember what was after that.

1984/85 rejigged a little:

0630 to Liverpool or Manchester (can't remember which), from Paddington
0730 to Hull, from Paddington
0830 to Liverpool (possibly Manchester) from Poole
0930 to Glasgow from Poole, the first Wessex Scot
1030 to Manchester from Brighton
1130 to Newcastle from Poole
Nothing at 1230 - gap in the service
1330 to Manchester from Poole
1430 to Manchester from Brighton
1530 to York from Portsmouth
1630 to Manchester or Liverpool from Poole

1985/86 was more or less the same as 1984/85 I think, but more trains were diesel hauled north of Birmingham.

and 1986/87 rejigged again:

Can't remember whether the 0630 or 0730-ish still ran. After that:

0830 to Liverpool (possibly Manchester) from Poole
0930 to Liverpool from Portsmouth
1030 to Glasgow from Poole, the Wessex Scot again
1130 was, bizarrely, a London Midland (Tyseley?) DMU from Reading to Birmingham. Oddly this wasn't in the timetable
but got added at some later point, between the May start and August.
1230 to Newcastle from Poole
1330 to Manchester or Liverpool from Paddington
1430 to Manchester from Portsmouth
1530 think there might have been a gap
1630 to Manchester or Liverpool from Poole (I think)

Similar in the other direction.

These were largely 47s (think there might have been the odd 50) that became 86s north of Birmingham, though a few were diesel throughout in 1986/87. That was also the year they started sending Brighton trains up the WCML from Kensington.

FWIW I also remember the early Virgin Trains service north of Southampton (Southampton times here rather than Reading).
This would have been around 1997-99.

0650 Edinburgh via Manchester, 47
0750 Liverpool, 47. On one occasion this one, I think (might have been the one an hour before) was hauled by Deltic Royal Scots Grey instead - a late November Saturday in 1998.
0950 York, HST
1150 Wessex Scot (Glasgow), HST
1250 Dorset Scot (Edinburgh, possibly Glasgow, via ECML, HST)
1450 Pines Express, Manchester, HST
1650 Manchester, HST
1750 Manchester, HST
1850 Manchester, 47, 86 north of Birmingham
1950 HST to Birmingham, got added later than the rest

One thing that stands out in all these eras is the wider variety of destinations rather than all trains going from the same origin to the same destination every hour. Liverpool in particular has really suffered in terms of through trains to the south since then.

 

[03_179]

Absoletley brilliant everyone thank you very much.

Such a shame that these services don't exist anymore like this (apart from voyagers etc.) Nothing like jumping on mkII and a loco at Croydon or Clapham J and heading off. You knew you were on a train with one of them.

 

[davetheguard]

Bill EWS raises the point that it would have been nice to have these trains stopping at Didcot.

However, for a couple of years at least there was a through Manchester to Brighton train that stopped at Didcot. The downside was that it was at an very early hour - 03.30ish or so if my memory is not playing tricks. I did catch it once; I'd gone down the station to the 04.14 DMU to Reading and the Brighton rolled in running late.

By the way, the 04.14 (04.00 ex Oxford), is one of those trains that seems to have been running all my life. It had a spell running as a staff train, before reverting to being a proper passenger train again. Mostly running to Paddington, I think it had a spell in Thames Trains days when it ran to Gatwick Airport? Perhaps someone can put some flesh on these bones?