BR MK1 12-wheel coaches - are there any in preservation?

alexl92

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Do any 12-wheel British Railways MK1 coaches exist in preservation? Are any in regular use at a preserved railway?

I was looking at my collection of oo gauge carriages earlier, one of which is a 12-wheel 68ft Restaurant Car, and it occurred to me that I can't remember ever having seen a 12-wheel MK1 in preservation. How many were actually built?
 
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Wolfie

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Do any 12-wheel British Railways MK1 coaches exist in preservation? Are any in regular use at a preserved railway?

I was looking at my collection of oo gauge carriages earlier, one of which is a 12-wheel 68ft Restaurant Car, and it occurred to me that I can't remember ever having seen a 12-wheel MK1 in preservation. How many were actually built?
I am curious. What, except possibly axle loading, is the benefit of a 12-wheel rather than 8-wheel coach?
 

Snow1964

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I have seen pictures of 12 wheel Pullman cars, but never seen a BR coach with 12 wheels.

I guess in days of leaf springs they rode better, so didn’t spill your soup whilst dining.
 

Cowley

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ac6000cw

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Far more likely to have been an ex-LMS 12-wheel dining car in BR livery.

I don't think the BR Mk1 series included any 12-wheel vehicles (but doubtless someone will come along to correct me!)

Given that the LMS restaurant cars were 68ft long I suspect axle-loading might have been the main reason for the 3-axle bogies, but ride might have a factor as well.
 

John Webb

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Restaurant cars had to carry the heavy kitchen equipment and some railway companies and Pullman preferred to use 12-wheeled coaches for this purpose, probably to keep the weight per axle similar to that of ordinary coaches to keep the ride characteristics similar. (8 wheels would have needed stronger, hence stiffer springs, to carry the extra weight.)
To the best of my knowledge, no Mk 1 coaches were built as 12-wheeled; at least there are none listed in my ABC of British Railways Coaches published in 1958. I suspect improved bogie design and lighter weight kitchen equipment removed the need for a 12-wheeled vehicle.
 

etr221

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No BR Standard (Mk1) coaches were 12-wheelers.

The LMSR (in particular - don't recall about the rest of the big 4) did build 12-wheelers, mainly sleeping and dining cars: I think some may have been built post 1948. The Bluebell had some ex-LMS (at least by design) sleepers, used for volunteer accommodation, but I don't know their current status.
 

ac6000cw

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I think the GWR also built some 12-wheel stock, but if this was pre- or post-grouping I don't know.
 

hexagon789

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No 12-wheel Mk1s, but common in the 1950s and early 1960s for them to be mixed with pre-Nationalisation design 12-wheelers. For many years the booked restaurant car on the Kyle of Lochalsh line was a 12-wheel LMS design. The rest of the train formation was either Stanier LMS coaches, Mk1s or a mixture depending on the exact period of 1950s-early 1960s.
 

alexl92

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Thanks all, thinking about I think it may be an ex-LMS 68ft vehicle - which explains why I've never seen another example!
 

Wyrleybart

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No 12-wheel Mk1s, but common in the 1950s and early 1960s for them to be mixed with pre-Nationalisation design 12-wheelers. For many years the booked restaurant car on the Kyle of Lochalsh line was a 12-wheel LMS design. The rest of the train formation was either Stanier LMS coaches, Mk1s or a mixture depending on the exact period of 1950s-early 1960s.
As others have said, no BR Mk1 12 wheeled vehicles. There were however ex LMS 12 wheel sleeping cars painted in BR blue & grey which may mislead. After redundant from passenger service they were used as semi mobile dormitories for p way workers. There were a couple based at Machynlleth in the 1970s, and I think they also visited the West Highland line on occasions.
One is preserved on the Bluebell railway https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html

I suspect though that the poster means the model of the 68 foot dining car which isa model by Hornby and which is another LMS design rather than BR Mk1
 

Taunton

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As described, the "LMS" vehicles were actually built through to the early 1950s, as was a lot of the "company stock" that survived to the end. I think the GWR Hawksworth cars, like most of his other design vehicles, were also built in BR times.

There was of course a considerable demand for vehicles post-WW2, little having been built since 1939, but then there was a shortage of steel and timber, plus a large number of damaged but repairable vehicles for the works to deal with. By the time that was overcome BR was in existence, but the first Mk 1 did not start to trickle out until well into 1951. In the meantime a lot of company stock design, from all of them, was built at their traditional works, and had the relevant company letter suffix assigned to their numbers.

I haven't got a date when the original company liveries for new vehicles got changed to the initial BR red/cream, but I think a number in preservation in pre-nationalisation colours never actually ran in original service with that. It would be a separate interesting topic, what were the last passenger vehicles from each company's designs that were built - vans carried on to even later.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I think the preserved Pullman Car at Shepperton Railway Station/Ian Allan, has 12 wheels.
 

hexagon789

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As others have said, no BR Mk1 12 wheeled vehicles. There were however ex LMS 12 wheel sleeping cars painted in BR blue & grey which may mislead. After redundant from passenger service they were used as semi mobile dormitories for p way workers. There were a couple based at Machynlleth in the 1970s, and I think they also visited the West Highland line on occasions.
One is preserved on the Bluebell railway https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html

I suspect though that the poster means the model of the 68 foot dining car which isa model by Hornby and which is another LMS design rather than BR Mk1
I think the Hornby one is the very design used on the Kyle Line.
 

matchmaker

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All LMS 68' and 69' coaches were 12 wheeled. I think the reason was ride quality, rather than axle loading - the 69' Stanier composite and 1st class sleepers were fitted with Mansell composite wheels. The last batch of 1st class sleepers lasted well into the blue and grey area, some receiving ETH for use on the WCML.
 

WesternLancer

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As others have said, no BR Mk1 12 wheeled vehicles. There were however ex LMS 12 wheel sleeping cars painted in BR blue & grey which may mislead. After redundant from passenger service they were used as semi mobile dormitories for p way workers. There were a couple based at Machynlleth in the 1970s, and I think they also visited the West Highland line on occasions.
One is preserved on the Bluebell railway https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html

I suspect though that the poster means the model of the 68 foot dining car which isa model by Hornby and which is another LMS design rather than BR Mk1
Thanks for link - sad that such an unusual vehicle has got into such poor condition, but v difficult for the Bluebell as hard to gain revenue from it I guess. Not a railway you can knock for their lack of work on historic carriage restoration after all.
 

gimmea50anyday

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There were some 12 wheel Pullman cars on the Seafront at Seaburn (Sunderland) that were recovered a couple of years ago when the hotel they were part of was demolished. I believe they went to Kent for restoration. Obviously they weren't MK1s (although some dissected and sectioned MK1s also formed part of the restaurant and ballroom) but what were they?
 

gimmea50anyday

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er qeah that's them, I recognise the leisure centre behind the carriages in the images which has also been demolished.

The site has now been developed as a bunch of shipping containers bolted together called stack, which features a central seating arena and the containers surrounding the seating area feature a number of different food and drink counters and a stage area.
 

WesternLancer

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er qeah that's them, I recognise the leisure centre behind the carriages in the images which has also been demolished.

The site has now been developed as a bunch of shipping containers bolted together called stack, which features a central seating arena and the containers surrounding the seating area feature a number of different food and drink counters and a stage area.
Glad the pullman's have been saved then, if that was what they were swapped for!
 

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