Brexit matters

[MattRat]

I'm betting that there'll be more than one quiet u-turn in coming years as this and successive governments attempt to claw back some of the benefits that existed pre-Brexit. All that's possible without specifically entering a customs union or reintroducing free movement anyway.

I think you mean as they slowly try to undermine democracy. It was hard enough forcing them to come up with a deal, which they have tried to sabotage at every turn, and appear to keep trying to sabotage even now.

Anything is possible when you are committed, and all that has happened clearly shows their lack of commitment.

 

[edwin_m]

I think you mean as they slowly try to undermine democracy. It was hard enough forcing them to come up with a deal, which they have tried to sabotage at every turn, and appear to keep trying to sabotage even now.

Anything is possible when you are committed, and all that has happened clearly shows their lack of commitment.

Who do you consider "them" to be?

 

[MattRat]

Who do you consider "them" to be?

Politicians in general, which includes the Conservatives. Before you say Conservatives, or specific ones, are pro Brexit and I'm stupid, Boris Johnson himself wrote two articles for a paper, one pro and one anti Brexit, and only published the one he thought would get him in power.

 

[alex397]

This weekend, Belgian press reported that the popular school trips to London are becoming too expensive because of the new travel rules. Schools report a 20% rise. It seems most schools now prefer trips to Berlin. That can't be good for tourism in London.

Neither will it be good for places like Canterbury which regularly had day trips (and longer trips) from large school groups from the continent - for example, the coach park was often overflowing with mostly foreign-registered coaches. I doubt we will see that again anytime soon.

Canterbury has already gained a reputation for violence against foreign students, following a serious incident which reached German media (as well as other less serious incidents), so it is another blow for the city.

Argueably it is the smaller places that may feel the impact from less foreign tourism than London. Especially as, perhaps, Canterbury and East Kent is closer to the continent than most parts of the UK.

 

[XAM2175]

Politicians in general, which includes the Conservatives. Before you say Conservatives, or specific ones, are pro Brexit and I'm stupid, Boris Johnson himself wrote two articles for a paper, one pro and one anti Brexit, and only published the one he thought would get him in power.

Are you able to elaborate a bit further on your overall point here? At least as far as is relevant to the topic, anyway.

 

[MattRat]

Are you able to elaborate a bit further on your overall point here? At least as far as is relevant to the topic, anyway.

Brexit has only gone as badly as it has becuase all politicians didn't want Brexit, so they haven't committed to it and in fact done their hardest to sabotage it. If they were actually committed, it would have worked out much better.

 

[jon0844]

Brexit has only gone as badly as it has becuase all politicians didn't want Brexit, so they haven't committed to it and in fact done their hardest to sabotage it. If they were actually committed, it would have worked out much better.

I am confused. Everyone said they knew what they voted for and Boris said it was such a great deal. I saw the photos of people waving flags and celebrating 'independence day' (which is now seems was perhaps a reference to the movie).

There were photos. There was video. There are Tweets. There are newspaper front pages.

I don't recall the concerns about it not being a great deal, or calls to wait longer to sort out issues. I do recall the 'get it done' demands, and it got done.

I even remember everyone saying that it was done and everyone had to deal with it/get over it.

So excuse me if I don't believe that all of a sudden the problems are down to sabotage. Surely someone would have noticed...

 

[Dent]

Brexit has only gone as badly as it has becuase all politicians didn't want Brexit, so they haven't committed to it and in fact done their hardest to sabotage it. If they were actually committed, it would have worked out much better.

What evidence do you have to lead to those conclusions?

 

[MattRat]

I am confused. Everyone said they knew what they voted for and Boris said it was such a great deal. I saw the photos of people waving flags and celebrating 'independence day' (which is now seems was perhaps a reference to the movie).

There were photos. There was video. There are Tweets. There are newspaper front pages.

I don't recall the concerns about it not being a great deal, or calls to wait longer to sort out issues. I do recall the 'get it done' demands, and it got done.

I even remember everyone saying that it was done and everyone had to deal with it/get over it.

So excuse me if I don't believe that all of a sudden the problems are down to sabotage. Surely someone would have noticed...

I remember pre lockdowns every was saying Covid was being over exaggerated as a danger. Those same people then wanted more and more lockdowns, more than we got. People are fickle like that.

 

[jon0844]

I remember pre lockdowns every was saying Covid was being over exaggerated as a danger. Those same people then wanted more and more lockdowns, more than we got. People are fickle like that.

Did you reply to the wrong post by mistake? We were talking about Brexit and people sabotaging it, not Covid.

 

[MattRat]

Did you reply to the wrong post by mistake? We were talking about Brexit and people sabotaging it, not Covid.

My point was you can't trust the majority opinion.

 

[alex397]

My point was you can't trust the majority opinion.

Well that I agree with! Such as the 51% who voted for it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

My point was you can't trust the majority opinion.

Not a fan of democracy then?

 

[XAM2175]

Brexit has only gone as badly as it has becuase all politicians didn't want Brexit, so they haven't committed to it and in fact done their hardest to sabotage it. If they were actually committed, it would have worked out much better.

With the bare minimum respect required by the forum rules, this is complete garbage.

Do you think that all those MPs were sabotaging Brexit when they voted to invoke Article 50? Was Brexit being betrayed when Parliament was illegally prorogued in order that the withdrawal agreement not be debated? Was it compromised by the signing of a Trade and Co-operation Agreement that ended up with the UK further distanced from the EU than was ever suggested in any of the Leave campaigns?

I put it to you that we are in the situation we're in today precisely because the government, and cabinet in particular, have consistently sought to deliver the most pure and uncompromised Brexit possible. It's certainly far cry from "just like Norway"!

 

[class ep-09]

Brexit has only gone as badly as it has becuase all politicians didn't want Brexit, so they haven't committed to it and in fact done their hardest to sabotage it. If they were actually committed, it would have worked out much better.

And who in your opinion would be able to deliver “successful” brexit if not the man who was in charge of Vote Leave ?

Perhaps BoJo is not purest brexiter enough for you .

or…


perhaps he just lied all the time and people believed his lies ( and he still lies ) .

Brexit is the first instance , where a country deliberately decides to make its trading arrangements with its biggest trading partner , much worse than before .

 

[birchesgreen]

There was no plan, they admitted it after they won, they didn't expect to actually win. Then they tried to muddle through, maybe hoping it would all work out in the end.

Kins of sums up how much of this country and many businesses are run to be honest.

 

[edwin_m]

Brexit has only gone as badly as it has becuase all politicians didn't want Brexit, so they haven't committed to it and in fact done their hardest to sabotage it. If they were actually committed, it would have worked out much better.

The Johnson government needs Brexit to succeed, or rather to kid enough voters that it has succeeded. So they have absolutely no motive to sabotage it - even the current Cabinet aren't that stupid.

Some in the May government might have wanted to sabotage it, because they believed it was a bad idea but didn't have the courage to stand up to their own right wing and tell them the referendum result was obtained by deception and should be re-run on the basis of an agreed deal.

 

[37424]

The Johnson government needs Brexit to succeed, or rather to kid enough voters that it has succeeded. So they have absolutely no motive to sabotage it - even the current Cabinet aren't that stupid.

Some in the May government might have wanted to sabotage it, because they believed it was a bad idea but didn't have the courage to stand up to their own right wing and tell them the referendum result was obtained by deception and should be re-run on the basis of an agreed deal.

Do they want Brexit to Succeed? and if so what context? At the moment they seem intent on sabotaging their own deal over the NI protocol, and Frost seems to be demanding more even before the EU have presented their compromise proposals.

We need sensible arrangements with the EU and stability for Business is it any wonder such Intel won't consider a base in the UK when not only will companies have additional costs of not being in the single market if they want to Export to the EU, but the prospect that the agreement with the EU may go down the pan at any time and we end up on WTO rules and Tariffs.

Is it any wonder many Remainers are hacked off, I didn't have a problem accepting the result, but I did have problem with the likes of Farage campaigning on the basis of a Soft Brexit and then moving the goal posts to a Hard Brexit after the referendum, in the end we at least got some sort of deal which the government now seem intent on sabotaging as if the country didn't have enough problems as it is.

Frost complaining about this and that but hang on you negotiated this, so how stupid do you look?

 

[edwin_m]

Do they want Brexit to Succeed? and if so what context? At the moment they seem intent on sabotaging their own deal over the NI protocol, and Frost seems to be demanding more even before the EU have presented their compromise proposals.

I'd say they want it to succeed, but success in absolute terms is an impossibility because of the inherent contradictions and unworkabilities in what they agreed to, and because any deal they could have got would have been worse than staying in the EU. So they actually want to continue to paper over the cracks so it convinces enough people that it has succeeded. Did I mention they were incompetent?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd say they want it to succeed, but success in absolute terms is an impossibility because of the inherent contradictions and unworkabilities in what they agreed to, and because any deal they could have got would have been worse than staying in the EU. So they actually want to continue to paper over the cracks so it convinces enough people that it has succeeded. Did I mention they were incompetent?

Remember that Brexit was not a Governmental decision foisted on the electorate but the result of a larger percentage of the electorate who chose to cast their votes in the referendum than the other side who also chose to cast their votes. Those who did not decide to participate in that referendum are most probably either still sitting on the proverbial fence or just had no interest in the matter.

That is what Democracy so entails, like it or not. But many people with a political axe to grind totally ignore the part that the electorate played in this matter. It is not just the right-wing element who supported the "Leave" campaign, as that bastion of Pure Unsullied Socialism known as the RMT trade union executive committee also backed the "Leave" ideology prior to the referendum.

 

[alex397]

Remember that Brexit was not a Governmental decision foisted on the electorate but the result of a larger percentage of the electorate who chose to cast their votes in the referendum than the other side who also chose to cast their votes. Those who did not decide to participate in that referendum are most probably either still sitting on the proverbial fence or just had no interest in the matter.

Arguably, it should not have been allowed to have such huge changes with such a marginal success for the Leave campaign. It should have been clear that such a marginal result would mean that Brexit would become an incredibly divisive topic.

Farage said pre-results that a 51:49 result in Remain’s favour would mean a second refurendum would be best.

 

[REVUpminster]

The Johnson government needs Brexit to succeed, or rather to kid enough voters that it has succeeded. So they have absolutely no motive to sabotage it - even the current Cabinet aren't that stupid.

Some in the May government might have wanted to sabotage it, because they believed it was a bad idea but didn't have the courage to stand up to their own right wing and tell them the referendum result was obtained by deception and should be re-run on the basis of an agreed deal.

So if a yes for an agreed deal we would still leave. If no to an agreed deal we stay. Not much incentive for the EU to give any thing.

And we have Barnier now campaigning for French law over EU law.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And we have Barnier now campaigning for French law over EU law.

Is there not something similar happening in Poland?

 

[Dent]

Remember that Brexit was not a Governmental decision foisted on the electorate but the result of a larger percentage of the electorate who chose to cast their votes in the referendum than the other side who also chose to cast their votes.

The flaws in that extremely over-simplistic line of reasoning have been covered to death already, please read back through this thread.

 

[XAM2175]

And we have Barnier now campaigning for French law over EU law.

Barnier is campaigning on a platform of repositioning and strengthening France's position within the EU. There's an interesting interview with him on the topic here:

Michel Barnier: why is the EU’s former Brexit chief negotiator sounding like a Eurosceptic?

Tough controls on immigration, a restricted role for European courts, a new politics of patriotism: why is the EU’s former Brexit chief negotiator, now running for the French presidency, sounding more and more like a Eurosceptic?

www.theguardian.com

Is there not something similar happening in Poland?

Not really. Their constitutional tribunal ruled that certain EU laws are in conflict with Poland's constitution. It's viewed with some scepticism seeing as the court is heavily influenced by the Polish government, and there's an argument that the finding is of limited effect since the government at the time of Poland's accession to the EU in 2004 took that action in full knowledge that EU law had primacy over domestic law.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The flaws in that extremely over-simplistic line of reasoning have been covered to death already, please read back through this thread.

1).....It was I who launched this thread, over 3,350 postings ago. Are you facetiously suggesting that I have either the time or inclination to read through all of those past thread postings...

2).....There may well be new contributors to this excellent website who would not be aware of what had been posted previously.

 

[jon0844]

Do they want Brexit to Succeed? and if so what context? At the moment they seem intent on sabotaging their own deal over the NI protocol, and Frost seems to be demanding more even before the EU have presented their compromise proposals.

We need sensible arrangements with the EU and stability for Business is it any wonder such Intel won't consider a base in the UK when not only will companies have additional costs of not being in the single market if they want to Export to the EU, but the prospect that the agreement with the EU may go down the pan at any time and we end up on WTO rules and Tariffs.

Is it any wonder many Remainers are hacked off, I didn't have a problem accepting the result, but I did have problem with the likes of Farage campaigning on the basis of a Soft Brexit and then moving the goal posts to a Hard Brexit after the referendum, in the end we at least got some sort of deal which the government now seem intent on sabotaging as if the country didn't have enough problems as it is.

Frost complaining about this and that but hang on you negotiated this, so how stupid do you look?

If you consider disaster economics, then you'd likely want it to be a total **** show, allowing firms to struggle and become ripe for takeovers (Hedge Funds then able to asset strip and load with debt) or shares to fall, so you can snap them up and seek to take over a firm.

Once you've done this for a bit, you'd presumably now want the economy to grow - so you could seek a closer union with the EU again. Job done!

I cannot believe for one second that Nigel Farage, given his background and the fact he's now hawking a 'get rich' newsletter and giving financial advice to the general public, isn't wanting to do this. You wait and see if one day he suddenly becomes the voice of rejoining the EU.

 

[edwin_m]

Remember that Brexit was not a Governmental decision foisted on the electorate but the result of a larger percentage of the electorate who chose to cast their votes in the referendum than the other side who also chose to cast their votes. Those who did not decide to participate in that referendum are most probably either still sitting on the proverbial fence or just had no interest in the matter.

That is what Democracy so entails, like it or not. But many people with a political axe to grind totally ignore the part that the electorate played in this matter. It is not just the right-wing element who supported the "Leave" campaign, as that bastion of Pure Unsullied Socialism known as the RMT trade union executive committee also backed the "Leave" ideology prior to the referendum.

1).....It was I who launched this thread, over 3,350 postings ago. Are you facetiously suggesting that I have either the time or inclination to read through all of those past thread postings...

2).....There may well be new contributors to this excellent website who would not be aware of what had been posted previously.

To re-iterate yet again:

1. The Leave campaign resorted to blatant lies (£350m a week, for NHS, UK couldn't stop Turkey joining EU)
2. The Leave option was so vague that lots of people would have thought they were getting lots of different things. Once it became clear what was actually going to be done, some former supporters would no longer want it.

As I also point out repeatedly, almost every opinion poll from autumn 2007 onwards indicated a majority to remain. But the government insisted on railroading it through instead of going back to the people.

So if a yes for an agreed deal we would still leave. If no to an agreed deal we stay. Not much incentive for the EU to give any thing.

Cameron should have thought of that (and many other things) before he offered a vote.

 

[birchesgreen]

So we appear to want to be back where we started, have our Brexit cake and eat it.

Unfortunately the shelves are a little bare now.

 

[alex397]

Cameron should have thought of that (and many other things) before he offered a vote.

I hope he will forever regret the decision. Although it won’t affect his day to day privileged life.
No matter whether Leave or Remain won or lost, he helped to significantly increase divisions in UK society.
I used to love this country.