Brexit matters

[ValentaFan1974]

The people who voted to leave wanted to leave everything. The people who voted to remain wanted to stay with everything as-is.

I voted leave but I accept there has to be compromise, and I believe the deal we got is fair. It gets a lot more than May would’ve got us. It’s not perfect but it allows tariff and quota free access to their market, and their access to ours. The other main thing is security co-operation. This was paramount.

You will never please all of the people all of the time but I’m happy with what’s been agreed so far (by that I mean from the basics we’ve been told thus far).

 

[Chester1]

I was thinking more about how easily we could have some form of relationship like that between the EU and Turkey now (i.e. a form of customs union only), as I don't expect us to re-join any other market/level of market access for at least the rest of the decade (not least because most parties, even the staunchly pro-EU Lib Dems are not pushing it for now). If the situation at ports all around the country is sorted out capacity wise, without the need to for continued use of lorry parks, then trying to re-join anything won't be essential. However if it remains a problem, or trying to ease the flow of goods has marked benefits compared to whatever is going on in 2024, some form of closer arrangement will at least be the subject of an election campaign I think.

If the problems continue long term businesses on both sides of the channel would diversify their supply chains and customer base. It will be chaotic early this year, settle down and then get bad again once the UK introduces full checks from 1st July. It will settle down once everything is in place. FTAs are a normal mechanism for large trade flows, including those with land borders. US - Canada and Ukraine - Poland for instance. Its shifting from one system to the other that will cause disruption. There are extra costs and checks but they will be built into supply chains and systems.

Customs Union would mean copying EUs trade deals and having no say in making them. The EU could give a country easy access to compete against an industry focused in the UK in return for benefits for industries focused in parts of the EU. I think if we moved much closer to the EU it would be rejoining the single market. That would reintroduce FOM and benefit our service industries while allowing us do our own trade deals (with various constraints), as EFTA members do.

The people who voted to leave wanted to leave everything. The people who voted to remain wanted to stay with everything as-is.

I voted leave but I accept there has to be compromise, and I believe the deal we got is fair. It gets a lot more than May would’ve got us. It’s not perfect but it allows tariff and quota free access to their market, and their access to ours. The other main thing is security co-operation. This was paramount.

You will never please all of the people all of the time but I’m happy with what’s been agreed so far (by that I mean from the basics we’ve been told this far).

I think its the best realistic outcome once all policies that retain free movement of people are removed. Its thin compared with EU membership but its the thickest FTA the EU has done.

 

[Dave1987]

Interesting that Gove is now trying to heal the toxic divide he helped to create in this country. BoJo and Gove have very much helped to split this country in two for years to come. Brexiteers have never been able to drop their “Remoaner” tag line so don’t see how they can possibly expect relations in this country to heal. It is going to take a VERY long time for this divide to heal and be forgotten about.

 

[Southern Dvr]

I’m coming at this as a complete and total layman. So forgive any ignorance.
But what do we actually gain from this deal?
What I’ve seen so far suggests that:
• fishing remains the same for 5 years, I thought a big point was that fishermen wanted changes?
• Phone roaming costs will be returning when visiting the EU.
• we get to make our own laws and don’t have to abide by European Court rulings, sounds ‘ok’ but do we trust this government with such responsibilities?

Obviously there’s more but I haven’t seen that, so can someone who is a Brexiteer tell me what this deal does that makes life outside the Union better than life in it? Genuinely, because I can’t (yet) see how it does.

 

[eoff]

I’m coming at this as a complete and total layman. So forgive any ignorance.
But what do we actually gain from this deal?

Good question, and I would like the list as well.
As far as I can see the main point is that we have 'taken back control' of borders, resources and are no longer subject to EU regulation. As a result we are in a position to negotiate away these things with other countries to gain some benefits by mutual cooperation, as we did with the EU in the past and have now done again.

 

[birchesgreen]

That's good we have taken back control of our borders, now we can be just like France.

 

[radamfi]

I’m coming at this as a complete and total layman. So forgive any ignorance.
But what do we actually gain from this deal?
What I’ve seen so far suggests that:
• fishing remains the same for 5 years, I thought a big point was that fishermen wanted changes?
• Phone roaming costs will be returning when visiting the EU.
• we get to make our own laws and don’t have to abide by European Court rulings, sounds ‘ok’ but do we trust this government with such responsibilities?

Obviously there’s more but I haven’t seen that, so can someone who is a Brexiteer tell me what this deal does that makes life outside the Union better than life in it? Genuinely, because I can’t (yet) see how it does.

There is clearly no benefit other than the perceived notion of "sovereignty", which is obviously balls given that EU countries still feel sovereign.

Regarding roaming, I believe no UK network is planning to introduce roaming charges other than for people who continuously use their phone abroad for an extended period. The EU regulations always allowed operators to restrict roaming in those circumstances anyway to prevent everyone joining the cheapest network in Europe. The worst case scenario would be to need one SIM card for the UK and one for the EU. Switzerland has always been outside the free roaming, however Three allow free roaming there so I use them when in Switzerland.

The full text is here:

https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2020/EN/COM-2020-857-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF

 

[WestCoast]

I am disappointed to see that Erasmus will be a casualty of Brexit despite reassurances it wouldn’t be. I suspect it will have a real impact on languages at Uni especially and this isn’t just about students having a jolly - companies here need home grown language speakers to market their services on the continent. I spent a year in Munich which helped me enormously with the language part of my degree and was great fun too. I see the proposed new Turing scheme is very light on detail and is being spin as more international. I fail to see how it will be better for language students where the best option is often Europe.

 

[ILikeTrains75]

I’m coming at this as a complete and total layman. So forgive any ignorance.
But what do we actually gain from this deal?
What I’ve seen so far suggests that:
• fishing remains the same for 5 years, I thought a big point was that fishermen wanted changes?
• Phone roaming costs will be returning when visiting the EU.
• we get to make our own laws and don’t have to abide by European Court rulings, sounds ‘ok’ but do we trust this government with such responsibilities?

Obviously there’s more but I haven’t seen that, so can someone who is a Brexiteer tell me what this deal does that makes life outside the Union better than life in it? Genuinely, because I can’t (yet) see how it does.

It appears to me that the only 'benefit' to the whole Brexit thing is that the UK can control it's immigration policy in future. Personally I think the whole 'sovereignty' thing is just a smoke screen for concerns about immigration - I think everyone should have been much more honest about any concerns, and we had an open and honest debate about it, even if it was a difficult discussion. People could then have realised that the UK population is aging, and that a level of immigration is actually essential. People would also have realised that we had a lot of tools to manage flows, we just chose not to use them!

 

[yorksrob]

I do disagree with the phrase "non-tariff barriers" generally, particularly as it automatically implies a bad thing, whereas in reality for the most part "non-tariff barriers" are just societies exercising some democratic control over the way in which their economies operate.

Nevertheless, I appreciate that Brexit has led to these being an issue for British and European business, more due to many of them suddenly appearing at the same time, rather than societies managing their economies in principle.

 

[Typhoon]

That's good we have taken back control of our borders, now we can be just like France.

I just wish we had done a 'France' back in March. OK, transport gets blocked (their side rather than ours) but it might have diminished the influx of Covid-19 into the country and given us time to get hospitals and PPE sorted.

 

[radamfi]

It appears to me that the only 'benefit' to the whole Brexit thing is that the UK can control it's immigration policy in future. Personally I think the whole 'sovereignty' thing is just a smoke screen for concerns about immigration - I think everyone should have been much more honest about any concerns, and we had an open and honest debate about it, even if it was a difficult discussion. People could then have realised that the UK population is aging, and that a level of immigration is actually essential. People would also have realised that we had a lot of tools to manage flows, we just chose not to use them!

People who want reduced immigration will be disappointed. The only difference will be that EU immigration will be replaced by non-EU immigration. It will be very difficult to attract EU immigrants when they have a choice of going to Britain or somewhere else in the EU because the UK cannot offer them the same long term rights of residence.

 

[najaB]

I just wish we had done a 'France' back in March. OK, transport gets blocked (their side rather than ours) but it might have diminished the influx of Covid-19 into the country and given us time to get hospitals and PPE sorted.

Even without travel restrictions we had more than enough time to get PPE sorted out. Remember, the EU offered to include us in their purchase scheme which would have increased our supply pool and lowered the cost, but our Tory government declined the offer, and instead imported the wrong stuff from Turkey at greatly inflated prices.

 

[radamfi]

I am disappointed to see that Erasmus will be a casualty of Brexit despite reassurances it wouldn’t be. I suspect it will have a real impact on languages at Uni especially and this isn’t just about students having a jolly - companies here need home grown language speakers to market their services on the continent. I spent a year in Munich which helped me enormously with the language part of my degree and was great fun too. I see the proposed new Turing scheme is very light on detail and is being spin as more international. I fail to see how it will be better for language students where the best option is often Europe.

Parents surely ought to be moving to Ireland now to safeguard their child's future? A degree from a UK university will not be as useful in future because qualifications will not necessarily be recognised in the EU, depending on the profession. It would certainly make sense for British students who can afford the international fees and visas to go to EU universities in future.

 

[37424]

People who want reduced immigration will be disappointed. The only difference will be that EU immigration will be replaced by non-EU immigration. It will be very difficult to attract EU immigrants when they have a choice of going to Britain or somewhere else in the EU because the UK cannot offer them the same long term rights of residence.

I fell about with Laugher when Andrew Bridgen MP on an interview with Sky was talking about a freedom of movement deal with Canzak, So we can potentially have freedom of movement with these countries of which two are on the other side of the world but not the EU. But of course these countries speak our language (well ignoring the French Canadians and the indigenous population) not like those pesky EU people who speak different languages and don't know our ways, he even more or less admitted this in his reasoning which was 'they use the same democratic system as us' and this guy is an MP?

 

[najaB]

I fell about with Laugher when Andrew Bridgen MP on an interview with Sky was talking about a freedom of movement deal with Canzak, So we can potentially have freedom of movement with these countries of which two are on the other side of the world but not the EU. But of course these countries speak our language (well ignoring the French Canadians and the indigenous population) not like those pesky EU people who speak different languages and don't know our ways, he even more or less admitted this in his reasoning which was 'they use the same democratic system as us'

What about South Africa, Nigeria, Gambia, the various islands in the Caribbean, Guyana, etc. ? Same democratic system, yet they're not mentioned. Something doesn't seem white about that.

 

[Dave1987]

I fell about with Laugher when Andrew Bridgen MP on an interview with Sky was talking about a freedom of movement deal with Canzak, So we can potentially have freedom of movement with these countries of which two are on the other side of the world but not the EU. But of course these countries speak our language (well ignoring the French Canadians and the indigenous population) not like those pesky EU people who speak different languages and don't know our ways, he even more or less admitted this in his reasoning which was 'they use the same democratic system as us' and this guy is an MP?

So hold on a second. The ERG specifically stated that they wanted free movement of people to end post Brexit so we can “control our borders” now desire to get into another club with free movement of people at its core? Whaaatt??? What the hell is going on with this country? Have we declared war on Europe and see them as our mortal enemy or something? Europe seems like a dirty word in the UK now.

 

[radamfi]

Is Ireland still going to pay for EHIC for Northern Ireland even though it will continue in the UK as part of the deal?

 

[yorksrob]

I'd be very surprised indeed if a "free movement" deal with CANZAC involved an automatic right to settle or even work for long periods of time in those countries.

 

[radamfi]

Australia have already dismissed the possibility of free movement when approached by the UK regarding a trade deal.

 

[Dave1987]

So the ERG want to create a free trade, freedom of movement block with four countries that are thousands of miles apart. It’s not as if you just say to your mates I’m popping over to New Zealand or Australia for the weekend. People spend years planning that once in a lifetime trip to Canada or New Zealand. It costs a huge amount of money to travel to the other side of the world. People are never going to make regular use of a freedom of movement area over those distances where time zones are so far apart. The ERG are utterly bonkers.

 

[37424]

So hold on a second. The ERG specifically stated that they wanted free movement of people to end post Brexit so we can “control our borders” now desire to get into another club with free movement of people at its core? Whaaatt??? What the hell is going on with this country? Have we declared war on Europe and see them as our mortal enemy or something? Europe seems like a dirty word in the UK now.

To be fair we are talking about ERG types here I don't think it would be government policy. But of course we shouldn't be surprised by ERG types where hypocrisy knows no bounds, you can bet that concern's about sovereignty would have gone out the window for a trade deal with trump.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

I don’t think the EHIC stays “as-is”, however some sort of reciprocity is assured as part of the deal.

UK mobile networks from 1st Jan could reintroduce roaming charges for UK customers in the EU should they wish to. I’m not sure if they are intending to charge EU countries networks a higher wholesale fee for EU roamers onto UK networks from 1st Jan (they all pay a very small token amount to each other at a wholesale level for minutes/texts/data used as part of the EU roaming regulations). The fact nothing is changing makes me think the status-quo will be maintained in the short to medium term. The first network to consider doing it would no only get pasted by the media but would haemorrhage customers, so it could be a game of “stare-out”, in other words, who blinks first.

 

[Typhoon]

I fell about with Laugher when Andrew Bridgen MP on an interview with Sky was talking about a freedom of movement deal with Canzak, So we can potentially have freedom of movement with these countries of which two are on the other side of the world but not the EU. But of course these countries speak our language (well ignoring the French Canadians and the indigenous population) not like those pesky EU people who speak different languages and don't know our ways, he even more or less admitted this in his reasoning which was 'they use the same democratic system as us' and this guy is an MP?

Most media organisations must know that if you want someone to spout right-wing drivel there are a few safe ports to call at. Sky have found one. This is, of course, the same Mr Bridgen who is married to a Serbian (not notoriously sound speakers of English, which might be an advantage for her at home). I was under the impression that it was not over difficult to get a work visa to Australia and Canada provided you met certain skills based criteria (I believe the Home Secretary is an expert). I doubt whether that will change, they want skilled people to support their aging population just like - us! If Mr Bridgen is hoping for a Canzak deal, will he support British pensioners living in those countries getting the full pension rather than the frozen version some get now? Do we know how the wonder deal will affect pensioners currently living in the EU?

What about South Africa, Nigeria, Gambia, the various islands in the Caribbean, Guyana, etc. ? Same democratic system, yet they're not mentioned. Something doesn't seem white about that.

Very good!

 

[radamfi]

Do we know how the wonder deal will affect pensioners currently living in the EU?

Uprating seems to be assured even for pensioners yet to move to the EU.

[Withdrawn] Summary Explainer

www.gov.uk

116. Under the Protocol, the UK and EU Member States will be able to take into account relevant contributions paid into each other’s social security systems, or relevant periods of work or residence, by individuals for determining entitlement to a state pension and to a range of benefits. This will provide a good level of protection for people working in the UK and EU Member States. The Protocol also provides for the uprating of the UK State Pension paid to pensioners who retire to the EU.

I don’t think the EHIC stays “as-is”, however some sort of reciprocity is assured as part of the deal.

Is this just your gut feeling, or do you have a quote? All sources that I've seen suggest a straightforward continuation of the scheme, the only difference being that the UK card is being renamed.

 

[Mag_seven]

Uprating seems to be assured even for pensioners yet to move to the EU.

[Withdrawn] Summary Explainer

www.gov.uk

Brilliant isn't it - pensioners that by and large voted leave get their rights protected whilst the young are shafted over things such as freedom of movement and Erasmus.

 

[radamfi]

Brilliant isn't it - pensioners that by and large voted leave get their rights protected whilst the young are shafted over things such as freedom of movement and Erasmus.

Young people should vote with their feet and move to Ireland as soon as possible or study in the EU straight after school if their parents can afford it.

 

[alex397]

Young people should vote with their feet and move to Ireland as soon as possible or study in the EU straight after school if their parents can afford it.

Indeed they should. However it will be very difficult for many to do that.

I’d like to think the current generation of young people will stand up for themselves more than ever, but I think cutting many connections with Europe, and the constant anti-European propaganda will make many indifferent to it. That’s all just my speculation though!

 

[Chester1]

Australia have already dismissed the possibility of free movement when approached by the UK regarding a trade deal.

So the ERG want to create a free trade, freedom of movement block with four countries that are thousands of miles apart. It’s not as if you just say to your mates I’m popping over to New Zealand or Australia for the weekend. People spend years planning that once in a lifetime trip to Canada or New Zealand. It costs a huge amount of money to travel to the other side of the world. People are never going to make regular use of a freedom of movement area over those distances where time zones are so far apart. The ERG are utterly bonkers.

I got the impression that the UK government only suggested FOM with Australia as a half hearted gesture to ERG and didn't really want it. The Australian government has publicly stated the intention for the FTA to extend Youth Mobility visas from 1-2 years to 3 years and various easements for high skilled visas. There is an exploratory discussion on some sort of digital economy / service sector visa for medium skilled workers which would be 2 year non renewable (under UK Tier 5 and Australia's temporary work visa program). I think that is the sort of agreement the UK will try to get with other English speaking countries. There is interest in the US in a "mobility framework". I wouldn't support more than that sort of deal, we should try to keep reasonably close to the principle that immigrants are assessed as individuals, not based on their nationality.

The Telegraph reported that Erasmus uptake in the UK is barely half the average (as a % of students) but payment is made relative to GDP, making it poor value. There is logic behind dropping Erasmus but my fear is that the replacement scheme will have fewer places despite the cost to the Government per student being lower than under Erasmus. I do think there is a reasonable argument to say that 1 year in Singapore or Mumbai would be a better preparation for mid 21st century business than a year in Berlin or Rome.

The reciprocal healthcare agreement appears to be a duplicate of the agreement that under pins the EHIC. It will just come under different branding and administration and be put with the UKs handful of reciprocal agreements with non EU countries.

 

[najaB]

The Telegraph Torygraph reported that Erasmus uptake in the UK is barely half the average (as a % of students) but payment is made relative to GDP, making it poor value.

Surely the solution to that is encouraging more people to take advantage of it, rather than pulling out entirely?